Yamaha RX-V2700 Receiver Reviewed!

[gene]

The network feature has some usability issues. In particular, the ability to stream music. Firstly, the menu on the screen will dissapear after a very short time. It would have been nice if they had made that adjustable. Secondly, the interface is slow, and it's easy to overshoot the item you wanted to select. The worst issue though, experienced by a number of people is that artist and album lists will come up with zero entries. This appears to mainly happen when attempting to scroll through the list by holding down the up or down button.

This problem might be a disconnect between Microsoft's media connect service or not. I wanted to capture packets sent back and forth to see what was happening, but I had no easy way to do that (Easiest way would be to disconnect my PC and move it into the living room and hook it directly to the RX with a crossover cable; too much work )

I didn't find this to be an issue as you can get the screen back anytime by hitting the button on the remote. I didn't experience issues with artist names/songs not appearing.

One more issue Gene did not directly address was loss of bass when using HDMI/PCM. A number of people have tested this, and say their levels are prefect (which apparently requires that the 2700 boost the LFE channel by 10Db, similar what's needed for Dolby Digital.) At least one person complained that they had weak bass over HDMI/PCM (as when listening to a TruHD track.) I don't know what to think...seems like the 2700 is doing the right thing, but for some reason a few people were seeing issues.

I NEVER experienced this issue with the two players I tested with - Denon DVD-2930CI and the Toshiba HD-A2. I heard about the issue on AVS someone was having with a Pioneer player but it seems to be the player and NOT the receiver.

One more question that was brought up in forums was whether the Yamaha could process (dematrix) Dolby EX if the player was doing the decoding, and sending the audio via HDMI/PCM. This requires the 2700 be able to apply it's processing to PCM. I suspect that does work, but I have no way of testing it.

Not sure I follow you 100% but I was able to overlay PLIIx modes on the 2700when the Toshiba player was passing multi channel PCM via HDMI.

 

[JackT]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this receiver get the highest HQV score of any receiver you have ever tested? The previous record holder, I believe, was the Denon 4306. You seemed a little more effusive about the 65 the 4306 got than the 68 the 2700 scored. My point is, it looks like the 2700 is the best deinterlacing reciever you can get (AFAIK that is--there might be some uber-receivers that do as well as standalone VP units, but I haven't seen reviews for those...)

 

[MichaelJHuman]

Sounds like there's no issues processing PCM, thanks Gene.

Most likely the LFE issue was player side then (or in the mind of the person complaining.) I don't have a high def player that does HDMI; I have the 360 add-on. I plan on buying a dedicated HD DVD player when the price comes down more. In the mean time, I will assume everything will work great once I get a high def player with HDMI.

As for empty lists, its a real issue and very annoying. I don't know under what circumstances it appears; all I have is one persons word that Yamaha has acknowledged it as a problem they are working on. And once again, it COULD be a communication issue between media connect and the RX, but I suspect otherwise.

Thanks for your responses, and thanks for the review.

 

[fastexas]

Gene,
Can you comment on upconversion of VHS tapes to 720p through the
DVDO scaler in this unit? I'm looking for the best solution
in PQ for the vast array of old tapes I still use.

Also, with the reduced pre-amp output voltage before clipping in this model,
what should I be looking for, spec-wise, in an outboard power amp (front 2 channels only) to avoid distortion or other sonic problems?

 

[gene]

Gene,
Can you comment on upconversion of VHS tapes to 720p through the
DVDO scaler in this unit? I'm looking for the best solution
in PQ for the vast array of old tapes I still use.

Also, with the reduced pre-amp output voltage before clipping in this model,
what should I be looking for, spec-wise, in an outboard power amp (front 2 channels only) to avoid distortion or other sonic problems?

I did comment on VHS in my review. The image was improved when it was actually stable. I think this depends on the VHS you use which is why I suggest also using component connections to your display. Note the Yammie only does I/P conversion via Component video out however.

The preamp issue is mostly academic as you will likely rarely encounter clipping during normal usage. I would suggest at least choosing a power amp with a 29dB or higher gain structure.

 

[Nestor]

I, too, have experienced the network server issues MichaelJHuman has experienced. I speculate that it's due to either larger files (eg. wav) or maybe due to extensive music collections. I became so frustrated that I gave up on Yamaha's feature entirely and purchased a stand-alone music server.

The internet radio station feature falls short in two areas. First, it is limited to the stations provided by Vtuner. Now, Vtuner has an extensive collection, but the Yamaha list is edited. Second Yamaha lacks the ability to add urls of your favourite audio streams not provided.

Both of the above features were selling points for me that helped in my decision to purchase the 2700. I was disappointed when I found them so frustrating to use.

Yamaha has a long ways to go in the music server area. Slim Devices, Sonos, et al, are light years ahead.

One for the "wishlist" rather than a criticism is the restriction to analog sources for zone 2/3. A little annoying in that it required extra rca cables from various sources. (so much for simple digital connections!). I can understand that adding the extra D/A converter would have pushed up the price of the 2700, so I'll let that one go.

 

[evilkat]

Great review Gene, but I do have a question for you: How do you get the Yamaha 'reciever editor' software? It's too bad this won't work over the ethernet connection

 

[Hi Ho]

Gene, since you didn't mention it in the review, I guess you didn't have any issues with slow navigation using the PC network feature? I certainly do. When trying to navigate large lists, things randomly dissapear and I find it virtually impossible to get to anything in the "middle" of the list because in the midst of scrolling, which takes forever, the list will dissapear. Do you know if the latest receiver you got had some sort of updated firmware?

 

[HiHoStevo]

Gene

Now how about a review comparing the 2700 with the Pioneer Elite 84TXsi, the Sony 5200es, the Denon 4306, and the Marantz SR7001/8001??? [or any other HDMI switching receiver that has 3 or more HDMI inputs]

I am having what appear to be EDID issues feeding my HDMI source through my Elite 84 to my DVI/M1 equipped InFocus projector. When feeding directly I have no issue, but when the signal is run through the 84 my sources LOCK to the InFocus 7210's primary display frequency (720p) and will not budge from it. (Many seem to feel that my HD-DVD players output still looks better at 1080i than it does at 720p, but I cannot do this using the 84)

 

[simplesimon]

Am I the only one who finds troubling the suggestion to go against the manufacturer's specific instructions with respect to impedance settings, which instructions are there for what the review admits is a safety reason, in order to avoid potential damage to speakers that are <8 ohms?

Leaving aside all the legal problems this might raise (voiding your speaker/receiver warranty, eliminating your fire insurance coverage, liability for audioholics, etc.), if your choices with such speakers really are potential clipping or potential overheating, then I fail to see how the receiver can be said to be properly designed, let alone recommended.

 

[MDS]

Am I the only one who finds troubling the suggestion to go against the manufacturer's specific instructions with respect to impedance settings, which instructions are there for what the review admits is a safety reason, in order to avoid potential damage to speakers that are <8 ohms?

As stated in the review and many times on these forums and elsewhere (if you've been around audio for a long time), the 'impedance selector' switch simply reduces the rail voltage of the receiver. Voltage, current, and impedance are all related - if the impedance drops the receiver must supply more current. If you are using low impedance speakers, the current requirement may be too much for the receiver (usually only at high volume levels) and the receiver will overheat and possibly shut down.

If you provide adequate ventilation and don't try to push the receiver near its limits, it will never be a real problem. So you can either use the impedance selector switch and limit the power available from the receiver or you can leave it set to 8 ohms, provide adequate ventilation, and not push the receiver to its maximum volume limit.

Of course you can always buy an outboard amp if you want to use low impedance speakers or buy easy to drive 8 ohm speakers that won't give the receiver a problem.

 

[simplesimon]

Thank you for the detailed response, but I don't really find that answer satisfying.

The review clearly states that you risk damaging certain speakers by following the manufacturer's specific instructions with respect to those very same speakers! If you look in the receiver instruction manual, you will find that those instructions are emphasized by the word "Caution." How can a receiver be properly designed if it has the potential to damage speakers when used according to the manufacturer's own instructions, which instructions are flagged as important by that manufacturer?!? My guess is that many, if not most, purchasers of Yamaha receivers, almost all of which have this design feature as I understand it, will follow the instruction manual rather than looking for set-up tips on the internet.

Finally, I can only reiterate that to suggest overriding an admitted safety feature is problematic. It would be one thing if the switch feature is there only to allay consumer concerns about low impedance speakers, but the review goes on to state that it also is there to receive UL approval. Hence, I take it that the reviewer does not think that UL guidelines are all that important. I wouldn't be surprised if such guidelines are there to do more than merely protect the receiver itself.

 

[MDS]

The UL guideliness are important because the idea is to allow a margin of safety. If the receiver overheats it could possibly cause a fire. Limiting the rail voltage limits the current and thus reduces the possibility of overheating and causing fire. Safety is certainly important.

However, if the receiver has adequate ventilation AND you don't run it near its max for long periods of time it won't overheat so the suggestion as given is to leave the impedance switch at 8 ohms (so you don't limit power) and don't push the receiver to its limits.

Now I agree that a casual statement like 'don't push it near its limits' will fall on deaf ears most of the time and one could very well set themselves up for trouble. In that case, better safe than sorry and you should set the impedance switch lower.

You know how *I* would deal with this problem? DON'T BUY 4 OHM SPEAKERS IF YOU WANT TO USE A RECEIVER THAT CANNOT DRIVE LOW IMPEDANCES!

 

[simplesimon]

MDS

You've been more than patient, and I'll end it with the following two questions which are important to me because I am considering this receiver and 6 Ohm speakers.

With respect to the protection circuit, would you say it's OK to use the 8 Ohm setting with seven 6 Ohm speakers?

Do you read the review as implying that using the 6 Ohm setting risks damaging certain 6 Ohm speakers or only certain 4 Ohm speakers? If the former, then I really question the Yamaha design.

I would point out that the manual seems to imply using no more than two 4 Ohm speakers.

 

[MDS]

Setting the impedance switch to 8 ohm is not going to damage lower impedance speakers. On the contrary, it will reduce the amount of current that can be supplied which will reduce the power (watts).

I don't think seven 6 ohm speakers would present any problem whatsoever given that not all channels will peak at the same time (surrounds are rarely used). Seven 4 ohm speakers very likely would present a problem.

The front three channels are the most heavily used so using all 4 ohm speakers there presents a challenge in terms of current required and that is what the caution is about. That is because any speaker that is '4 ohms nominal' will dip well below 4 ohms for some frequencies.

Give the receiver a few inches of space above and to its sides for ventilation and it should be fine.

 

[Tracer]

Video Upscaling

You can scale component 480i to 780p or 1080i HDMI. I personally don't believe in letting your receiver scale to something like a plasma TV with a native 1024x780 resolution. My reason is that scaling will get done twice. One in the receiver and one in the display. And you know how a copy of a copied key does not always fit the lock.

Using the deinterlacer on the 2700 makes sense if your display is an interlaced display (that allows a progressive input) such as a tube TV or CRT projector; but you would want to be sure the 2700's deinterlacer improves your picture.

I have a plasma, and played around with my options. I saw no improvement using the 2700's abilities, so I just use it's HDMI upconverter and send 480i from my Tivo box.

Note that standard def can look pretty bad, and there's no fix I know of. Maybe you could make a box that really improved standard def (as opposed to the placebo effect of deinterlacing/scaling solutions in players and receivers that don't really improve the image, and certainly don't turn DVD players into HD players.)

I happened to find an extra component cable and tried all of the various options. I'm sorry to report your analysis is right on. None of the options looked appreciably better than the untouched 480i. I have heard the upscaling maybe works better with a DVD source as oppossed to the cable box source. In any case, I was really expecting to get more out of this feature.

 

[gene]

Thank you for the detailed response, but I don't really find that answer satisfying.

The review clearly states that you risk damaging certain speakers by following the manufacturer's specific instructions with respect to those very same speakers! If you look in the receiver instruction manual, you will find that those instructions are emphasized by the word "Caution." How can a receiver be properly designed if it has the potential to damage speakers when used according to the manufacturer's own instructions, which instructions are flagged as important by that manufacturer?!? My guess is that many, if not most, purchasers of Yamaha receivers, almost all of which have this design feature as I understand it, will follow the instruction manual rather than looking for set-up tips on the internet.

Finally, I can only reiterate that to suggest overriding an admitted safety feature is problematic. It would be one thing if the switch feature is there only to allay consumer concerns about low impedance speakers, but the review goes on to state that it also is there to receive UL approval. Hence, I take it that the reviewer does not think that UL guidelines are all that important. I wouldn't be surprised if such guidelines are there to do more than merely protect the receiver itself.

The switch is there so the receiver CLIPS sooner for the UL test at a lower power level, thus generating less heat. IT DOES NOT protect the receiver any better than if its set for 8 ohms. In fact it potentially can damage your speakers since the amp will CLIP more readily. The receiver already has very adequate short circuit and overload protection with either setting.

In your case, feel free to set it for 6 ohms if it makes you feel better.

 

[Ohmen]

Where do you get the receiver editor software. The review siad it is Yamaha proprietary software. I was unable to find a place to download it on Yamaha's web site.

 

[Audioholics]

I happened to find an extra component cable and tried all of the various options. I'm sorry to report your analysis is right on. None of the options looked appreciably better than the untouched 480i. I have heard the upscaling maybe works better with a DVD source as oppossed to the cable box source. In any case, I was really expecting to get more out of this feature.

We always recommend trying each scalar (transport, receiver - in this case, and display) to see which is the better scalar. That way you use the one with the best circuitry - and quite often it is the display.

Unless you have a reference-quality source component.

 

[simplesimon]

Clint,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Are you saying that UL has a completely meaningless test in that regard? Have you asked UL about that?

Even leaving that aside, you state that using the switch AS YAMAHA INSTRUCTS ONE TO USE IT can damage one's speakers. Have you asked Yamaha if they agree with this assertion? If the assertion is accurate, how can one say that such a receiver is properly designed?

I'm not interested in "feeling better," per se. I'm interested in avoiding a fire hazard, as well as protecting my speakers and receiver. You must understand that it's hard for a consumer to know what to do with equipment that the manufacturer very carefully and emphatically says to use one way and reviewers very carefully and emphatically say to use in a different way.