Which speakers do you like better - why?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Those are interesting, but I'll be honest I don't like the aesthetic. Were those in your main system or something subsidiary?

The 201/2 were in my main system (KEF 201/2 x 5 and Funk 18.0 x 2).

 

[nogaro]

I sold my KEF Reference 201/2 for like $1800-1900/pair. Might consider those as well. More than $1200, but still...

I can't speak for the other pairs, but you certainly sold 1 pair for quite a bit more than that!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can't speak for the other pairs, but you certainly sold 1 pair for quite a bit more than that!

My memory is all hazy. I can't remember if they were $1800, $1900, $2000, $2200.

The only thing I know for sure is the MSRP of $6,000.

And the awesome speaker measurement by Stereophile.

 

[nogaro]

My memory is all hazy. I can't remember if they were $1800, $1900, $2000, $2200.

The only thing I know for sure is the MSRP of $6,000.

And the awesome speaker measurement by Stereophile.

I just jogged your memory in a PM!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I sold my KEF Reference 201/2 for like $1800-1900/pair. Might consider those as well. More than $1200, but still...

OK, never mind on my recommendation. I just found out I sold those KEF 201/2 for $2800, not $1800. My bad.

Darn memory. I think building this new house is taking its toll on my memory.

 

[TheWarrior]

I'll have to check his algorithm, but I'm sticking to my experience and observations. We don't listen in an anechoic room, so I don't know why a room measurement that shows the frequency and amplitude of the delayed arrivals wouldn't be relevant to what we hear. The anechoic measurements can't weight the relative importance of on and off-axis responses. Are you sure he's giving much weight to off-axis angles of 45 degrees and higher? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

From the book, and what is essentially the audiobook version CIRMMT lecture on youtube, the anechoic tests are 70 measurements (360deg around, and then they lay the speaker on its side and repeat) in what they call a 'spinorama'. From that, all of the above mentioned data is derived. You should look in to it, it's truly fascinating how they are able to analyze all of those measurements and correlate to listener preference! 0.86 is pretty close to a guarantee!

Now to start crowd-funding anechoic chambers.....

 

[TheWarrior]

Sony Core series? You made an assessment on those? What was your impression?

They are delightful! I also think they are discontinued, so if you can find a pair, grab em! They do not have any pretense to bass, unlike the AA monitors, but the highs are comparable and really would be separated by each recording.

 

[Seth=L]

They are delightful! I also think they are discontinued, so if you can find a pair, grab em! They do not have any pretense to bass, unlike the AA monitors, but the highs are comparable and really would be separated by each recording.

Interesting. There's a pair of the Core series floorstanders at a pawn shop in pretty good shape for $99.99.

EDIT: Nevermind, someone picked them up before I could get back there and take another look at them. A customer of mine came in and was telling me about them and I suggest to him that he should pick them up because that was a very good price. I'm guessing he must have taken my advice.

 

[TheWarrior]

Interesting. There's a pair of the Core series floorstanders at a pawn shop in pretty good shape for $99.99.

Hook em up, make sure they work! Tho, I would assume the floor standers are still in need of a sub, but thats the beauty of $200 bookshelves: give them a sub and they can take on the world! You're getting more speaker, for half as much, WIN!

 

[Dennis Murphy]

From the book, and what is essentially the audiobook version CIRMMT lecture on youtube, the anechoic tests are 70 measurements (360deg around, and then they lay the speaker on its side and repeat) in what they call a 'spinorama'. From that, all of the above mentioned data is derived. You should look in to it, it's truly fascinating how they are able to analyze all of those measurements and correlate to listener preference! 0.86 is pretty close to a guarantee!

Now to start crowd-funding anechoic chambers.....

i agree it's interesting. But I haven't seen any sensitivity tests where they perform much more restricted off-axis measurements and see whether the correlation is all that lower. What I think is an overemphasis on extreme off-axis measurements has led to some bad speaker design--wave guides and horns that provide smooth roll-offs, but that add coloration and restrict the sound stage and sense of openness. Anyhow, I'll check out the youtube flick.

 

[ski2xblack]

I've gone out of my way to get ears on Dennis' work, and seriously, the value proposition can't be topped.

And as far as the Toole/room interface digression goes, it all depends on the room specifics where the speakers will be used. I've got Toole's book and find it extremely useful, but the advice tends to gravitate exclusively toward wide dispersion speakers (which makes perfect sense, as that's what Harmon specializes in). However, one of my rooms happens to work extremely well with speakers that throw a much narrower pattern, set up in the manner that Bill W. suggests for such speakers. Works great. (Yeah, Dennis, I broke down and built the Tempests. Maybe not Jim Salk grade, but for the price?!? Not too shabby for a 'garage speaker.')

 

[Seth=L]

Hook em up, make sure they work! Tho, I would assume the floor standers are still in need of a sub, but thats the beauty of $200 bookshelves: give them a sub and they can take on the world! You're getting more speaker, for half as much, WIN!

Yeah, but simple two way speakers almost never have the dynamic capabilities of a multi driver tower. It's hard for me to buy larger speakers because they take up so much room and are harder to find a place for were they can sound their best. I sacrifice a lot in dynamic range so I can place speakers easier.

I edited my other post. It appears someone nabbed them before I could get there to even take a look at them. Too bad because they're kinda the right size, but probably not quite the class of speaker I'd live with for years to come.

 

[Seth=L]

i agree it's interesting. But I haven't seen any sensitivity tests where they perform much more restricted off-axis measurements and see whether the correlation is all that lower. What I think is an overemphasis on extreme off-axis measurements has led to some bad speaker design--wave guides and horns that provide smooth roll-offs, but that add coloration and restrict the sound stage and sense of openness. Anyhow, I'll check out the youtube flick.

Are you saying it's kind of like the THD wars in the 70's? Robbing Peter to pay Paul, that sort of thing?

A question regarding your New Philharmonitor. I've read that some speakers featuring the RAAL ribbon can tend to be bright. I would assume this is largely due to the crossover design, which I understand to be your specialty. In your subjective view and reports from owners how would you or they define their sonic signature? In laymen terms, what are some of the key differences between the New Philharmonitors and the AAs.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Are you saying it's kind of like the THD wars in the 70's? Robbing Peter to pay Paul, that sort of thing?

A question regarding your New Philharmonitor. I've read that some speakers featuring the RAAL ribbon can tend to be bright. I would assume this is largely due to the crossover design, which I understand to be your specialty. In your subjective view and reports from owners how would you or they define their sonic signature? In laymen terms, what are some of the key differences between the New Philharmonitors and the AAs.

I was just comparing those speakers last night. The RAAL monitors actually sound less bright than the AA's, even though you wouldn't necessarily guess that looking at the response curves. The RAAL sound is a little more relaxed in the lower treble, and there is a more open character to the sound stage. Today I'm going to try a new tweeter on the AA's that I may offer as an upgrade. Or I may decide that the differences I'm hearing are just inherent differences betwen most domes and the RAAL. If a speaker using a good ribbon tweeter sounds bright, it's probably just because the designer thinks he has to call attention to the tweeter by ramping the response up.

 

[Good4it]

Amazon has them at $219 a pair, new and returnable.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00O8YLMVA/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=

 

[Seth=L]

I was just comparing those speakers last night. The RAAL monitors actually sound less bright than the AA's, even though you wouldn't necessarily guess that looking at the response curves. The RAAL sound is a little more relaxed in the lower treble, and there is a more open character to the sound stage. Today I'm going to try a new tweeter on the AA's that I may offer as an upgrade. Or I may decide that the differences I'm hearing are just inherent differences betwen most domes and the RAAL. If a speaker using a good ribbon tweeter sounds bright, it's probably just because the designer thinks he has to call attention to the tweeter by ramping the response up.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Well I'd certainly not want hot mid range or hot high frequencies. I prefer a more laid back speaker. The constant problem I have, and I wonder if it's my room more than the speakers I use in them, is a boominess in the upper midbass to lower midrange region. The Infinity IL10s do this, the Thiel PCS monitors do it.

The more recently acquired Amrita Amrit Logos don't do this as much which surprised me considering the design which is a large volume standmount/bookshelf monitor with no bracing, 8" woofer and 1" soft dome tweeter (unsure of material). The biggest issue I have with the Amrit Logos is the very narrow soundstage and their off axis response is abysmal. They are laid back and a tad "dark" sounding.

The Infinity IL10s are a bit more forward but still laid back compared to the Thiels, much better off axis performance, wider, deeper soundstage. The biggest complaint with them is that at certain frequencies the terminal cup has a resonant mode that becomes exciting and a buzzing sound occurs. I've been unable to find a way to prevent the buzz other than not playing the speakers as loud, which normally I don't listen so loud that they would do this so it's usually a non issue.

Sorry Dennis, I tend to prattle. I know you're quite busy and I don't mean to be a bother. If ever it's just too much please feel free to tell me so. I just hope to get a little slice of audio heaven so I can "relax". My goal is to be able to slip into a proverbial warm bath of sonic bliss and not have to worry about trivial idiosyncrasies with my equipment.

 

[Seth=L]

Amazon has them at $219 a pair, new and returnable.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00O8YLMVA/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=

Shoot, at that rate I'd sooner get the AA monitors. That extra oomph on the bottom end would really be nice. The efficiency doesn't bother me, I don't listen that loud most of the time anyway.

 

[Mark of Cenla]

The Sony Core speakers have decent bass for the size. I am surprised at how much I like them. Right now the pair I bought are in my son's stereo. I like them more than the Pioneer BS22's. Peace and goodwill.

 

[KenM10759]

I have auditioned the LS50's and many other speakers, just haven't had the opportunity to hear Philharmonic yet so no conclusions other than to say the only one's I've heard that beat the LS50 in that "size class" was the Aerial 5T. The fact that the Aerial 5T cost over 3x the LS50...it should be better.

 

[KEW]

Shoot, at that rate I'd sooner get the AA monitors. That extra oomph on the bottom end would really be nice. The efficiency doesn't bother me, I don't listen that loud most of the time anyway.

I just compared the AA's to the $560 Ascend 340's. I'm sure the Ascends could blast me out of the room better, but at reasonable levels, the AA's simply have more detail (and more bass to boot)!!!
I had been thinking of the AA's as an outstanding ~$200 speaker, but I have had to rethink that after comparing them to the Elac UniFi, the Ascend 340, and Energy RC-10.
Of the speakers I have heard, the Sony Core comes close (but not the bass), but it is the EMP 41Bse that is the closest priced speaker that I clearly like better (but the 4" 41Bse's lack bass and have a lower max SPL). Unfortunately EMP/RBH no longer sells this speaker. I think they went for around $450 to $500.

You know those speaker the press keeps talking about being as good as speakers that cost 2-3 times as much? I think they mean they compete with crappy speakers costing 2-3 times as much. The AA's actually compete with quality speakers costing 2-3 times as much!