Which speaker companies are honest when rating their impedance, and which companies lie?

[Steve81]

So, what speaker brands do you believe rate their speakers honestly, and which ones do not? Please provide links for the evidence that the dishonest ones are dishonest.

I can say that the Klipsch reference lineup can dip well below the 4 ohm mark in spite of 8 ohm nominal ratings:
Test Bench: Klipsch RF-83 Home Theater Speaker System | Sound and Vision Magazine

All the speakers in my KEF Q series setup are also realistically described as 4 ohm nominal in spite of the 8 ohm rating:
http://www.audiocinema-art.hr/UserFiles/File/recenzije/Stereoplay_02_11_Kef_Q_E.pdf

As Dr. Mark suggests though

Note to the public, assume every speaker is four ohms or less and you usually will be correct.

Not bad advice.

 

[PENG]

See above. If they do not know what they need to power the speakers because there is no standard measurement required, then the consumer should not be responsible for damaging the speakers if they base their amp decision on the impedance ratings. Look at the link Pyrrho pointed to where Gene says, "This is clearly a 4 ohm speaker"



Yeah, I just blew that theory to hell......

A lot of speaker companies do provide more than just one ohm rating, for examples B&M, Focal, Paradigm, Energy (veritas), KEF and many others do provide the minimum impedance as well as sensitivity, recommended power and sometimes even the maximum SPL and THD. I also think typically if someone come to this forum and ask for amp power recommendations, as long as they provide their room dimensions, speaker models, their listening habit/preference including how loud, they could usually get pretty decent suggestions that should help them match up with an AVR or separates that could drive their speakers without undue risk.

I still think if we must (I really don't) blame one of the three, then it is easier to blame the speaker makers who fail to provide enough information, and/or the users who should do a little more research before pulling their triggers. Amps and AVR manufacturers are not wrong in offering a good range of products, from class A to class D,G,H and weight from less than 20 lbs to over 100 lbs. If I remember right, ADTG use an AVR-3312 + sub to drive his 4 ohm rated Philharmonic 3 and he does not seem to have issue with that 2.1 setup so that's just another example how even a mid range AVR can meet some people's requirements.

Just like automobiles such as minivan and pick up trucks, some people only need minivan or a half ton, so it is good that such ligt duty vehicles are available otherise everyone who wants a van or pick up truck will have to buy a 3/4 or 1 ton class vehicle.

Also keep in mind again impedance is not the only thing that matters, many HTIAB speakers are rated 4 ohms or lower, they tell you that up front and you may even consider it being honest, but matching those with a 300WPC power amp is not necessary a good solution. Well I suppose we all know that already..

 

[Pyrrho]

It is the receiver manufacturers fault.

That is just nonsense. Speaker manufacturers are responsible for what they say and do, not anyone else. It is ridiculous to blame others for what they choose to do.

Respectable speaker makers, like Apogee, put honest ratings on their speakers, even if that means putting a very low number on it. There is nothing preventing other speaker makers from telling the truth about their products, too. That is, other than their total lack of scruples and integrity. They decide how they rate their own speakers, not anyone else.

Next you will probably be telling us that people who own nice cars are to blame for car thefts, because they are presenting such a temptation. People are responsible for their own actions. Thus, speaker makers are responsible for their choices as well.

These unstable output stages discourage good and proper speaker design. ...

Speaker manufacturers lying about the impedance of their speakers encourages amplifier manufacturers to make amplifiers that are not rated for less than 8 ohms. First, even if it can honestly deal with 4 ohms, the lying speaker manufacturers will put out a speaker that is 2 ohms with a higher rating and risk damage to the amp. Second, if every speaker is rated high, then amplifier manufacturers can sell a product that is only rated for high impedances, because it will then seem to be compatible with everything. The motive to make an amplifier capable for low impedances comes from having speakers of low impedances, and if the makers of speakers choose to rate them too high, then there is no need for amplifier makers to bother with anything better to make a sale.

So in fact, you have it exactly backwards.

 

[fmw]

Any amp can handle a 4 ohm load. It is a question of how much power they are expected to deliver to the load. An amp with a weak power supply such as we see in low end receivers might be rated at 80 watts into 8 ohms. That same amp may be perfectly happy deliverying up to 40 watts into 4 ohms. But rating the amp for 4 ohm use would require the amp manufacturer to lower the power rating which, oddly, is the most important spec for consumers. Most consumers would buy the 80 watt into 8 ohms amp rather than the 40 watt into 4 ohms amp even if they are the same amp. We are talking about a 3 db difference. Reality is few people actually run their amps at full rated power for any meaningful length time. Most receivers will drive 4 ohm loads at reasonable listening levels in typical family rooms or living rooms. Think of how many people buy a low end receiver and then drive cheap studio monitors or PA speakers with them. Most pro audio speakers are 4 ohm nominal. I think the group here and the OP are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[PENG]

Any amp can handle a 4 ohm load. It is a question of how much power they are expected to deliver to the load. An amp with a weak power supply such as we see in low end receivers might be rated at 80 watts into 8 ohms. That same amp may be perfectly happy deliverying up to 40 watts into 4 ohms. But rating the amp for 4 ohm use would require the amp manufacturer to lower the power rating which, oddly, is the most important spec for consumers. Most consumers would buy the 80 watt into 8 ohms amp rather than the 40 watt into 4 ohms amp even if they are the same amp. We are talking about a 3 db difference. Reality is few people actually run their amps at full rated power for any meaningful length time. Most receivers will drive 4 ohm loads at reasonable listening levels in typical family rooms or living rooms.

The following Denon FAQ sort supports what you are saying:

[h=2]4 Ohm Speakers with Denon A/V Receivers or Power Amps[/h] Published 08/16/2007 10:35 AM | Updated 11/21/2011 05:06 PM
Can I use 4 ohm loudspeakers with my Denon receiver or power amplifier?

Yes, you can.
To understand this a bit better, first realize that all amplifiers are designed to deliver a signal into an electrical "load" or resistance presented by the loudspeaker. We measure resistance in units called "ohms" (after the German physicist Georg Simon Ohm, 1787–1854).
Conventional wisdom makes an 8 ohm loudspeaker load the most acceptable because it "protects" the amplifier from delivering too much current. A 4 ohm loudspeaker can encourage a marginally designed amplifier to deliver more current than it comfortably can.
However, you should remember that a loudspeaker’s impedance rating is a nominal or average one: A speaker rated at 8 ohms may actually vary from 5 (sometimes even less) to 20 ohms or higher, depending on the frequency at which you measure the impedance. We call this reactance. (Don’t worry about this too much -- good speaker engineers are well aware of these variations and take them into consideration when designing products.)
In general, you’ll find that Denon products are designed to function with a wide variety of loudspeakers and have power supplies and output circuitry more than able to meet the current demands of low impedance loads. If using 4 ohm rated speakers, common sense should always be taken as to the volume level setting, as it is easier to overdrive or "clip" an amplifier with 4 ohm speakers than with speakers with a rating of 6~16 ohms.
In the rare event that very low impedances tax the amplifier, quick acting circuitry will protect it from damage. If unusual operating conditions trigger this "Protection" circuitry, the receiver will shut down and you will see a red blinking light on the Standby indicator. If this happens, simply power the unit off, unplug the unit for 3 minutes, and then plug it back in and power the unit back on. The protection circuitry may reset if there's no internal damage within the receiver. If it re-engages, check your system for possible malfunctions such as intermittently shorting speaker wires, damaged speaker drivers, or it may be as simple as turning the volume down a little as not to cause the amplifier(s) to go into protection due to overdriving them.

 

[DD66000]

Speaker manufacturers lying about the impedance of their speakers encourages amplifier manufacturers to make amplifiers that are not rated for less than 8 ohms. First, even if it can honestly deal with 4 ohms, the lying speaker manufacturers will put out a speaker that is 2 ohms with a higher rating and risk damage to the amp. Second, if every speaker is rated high, then amplifier manufacturers can sell a product that is only rated for high impedances, because it will then seem to be compatible with everything. The motive to make an amplifier capable for low impedances comes from having speakers of low impedances, and if the makers of speakers choose to rate them too high, then there is no need for amplifier makers to bother with anything better to make a sale.

So in fact, you have it exactly backwards.

That statement is no near right.
Manufacturers who insist on building $300 5~7 channel AVRs with NO pre outs are just being as cheap as cheap can get. Build it cheaper = more profit.
Why is it that the AVRs with pre outs are always the ones with the highest power output, and the highest price?
When in fact, the AVRs with low power are the ones that need to have pre outs. Because adding 5~7 pre outs would increase their cost.
But what is that added cost? It can not be much.

 

[PENG]

That statement is no near right.
Manufacturers who insist on building $300 5~7 channel AVRs with NO pre outs are just being as cheap as cheap can get. Build it cheaper = more profit.
Why is it that the AVRs with pre outs are always the ones with the highest power output, and the highest price?
When in fact, the AVRs with low power are the ones that need to have pre outs. Because adding 5~7 pre outs would increase their cost.
But what is that added cost? It can not be much.

You are being logical, but on the more realistic or even pratical side, I am quite sure (still just guessing) a lot of marketing people would naturally think that for those who only want or afford a $300 AVR will likely be matching them with lower cost speakers and in smaller houses/rooms therefore would not likely even think about adding a multichannel amps. So why bother adding cost, any cost at all if they are unlikely going to be used? I know quite a few people who owns entry level AVRs and speakers and they thought their 5.1 HT systems sound great, with no thoughts of any need to upgrade. They also wouldn't have room or know how to add an external amplifier.

That's just my guess but now I do know for a fact that if I am serious enough about needing a potent power amplifier, I will not consider using entry level AVR to drive it, even if it is free of charge. I wouldn't use anything less than something like an Yamaha RX-A1010, Denon AVR-33XX or Anthem MRX, that's just me.

 

[TLS Guy]

The following Denon FAQ sort supports what you are saying:

4 Ohm Speakers with Denon A/V Receivers or Power Amps

Published 08/16/2007 10:35 AM | Updated 11/21/2011 05:06 PM
Can I use 4 ohm loudspeakers with my Denon receiver or power amplifier?

Yes, you can.
To understand this a bit better, first realize that all amplifiers are designed to deliver a signal into an electrical "load" or resistance presented by the loudspeaker. We measure resistance in units called "ohms" (after the German physicist Georg Simon Ohm, 1787–1854).
Conventional wisdom makes an 8 ohm loudspeaker load the most acceptable because it "protects" the amplifier from delivering too much current. A 4 ohm loudspeaker can encourage a marginally designed amplifier to deliver more current than it comfortably can.
However, you should remember that a loudspeaker’s impedance rating is a nominal or average one: A speaker rated at 8 ohms may actually vary from 5 (sometimes even less) to 20 ohms or higher, depending on the frequency at which you measure the impedance. We call this reactance. (Don’t worry about this too much -- good speaker engineers are well aware of these variations and take them into consideration when designing products.)
In general, you’ll find that Denon products are designed to function with a wide variety of loudspeakers and have power supplies and output circuitry more than able to meet the current demands of low impedance loads. If using 4 ohm rated speakers, common sense should always be taken as to the volume level setting, as it is easier to overdrive or "clip" an amplifier with 4 ohm speakers than with speakers with a rating of 6~16 ohms.
In the rare event that very low impedances tax the amplifier, quick acting circuitry will protect it from damage. If unusual operating conditions trigger this "Protection" circuitry, the receiver will shut down and you will see a red blinking light on the Standby indicator. If this happens, simply power the unit off, unplug the unit for 3 minutes, and then plug it back in and power the unit back on. The protection circuitry may reset if there's no internal damage within the receiver. If it re-engages, check your system for possible malfunctions such as intermittently shorting speaker wires, damaged speaker drivers, or it may be as simple as turning the volume down a little as not to cause the amplifier(s) to go into protection due to overdriving them.

That statement is very sensible. It sounds as if they know there are hardly any 8 ohm speakers.

To sum it up the speaker manufacturers try and hide the true impedance so as to not loose sales.

The receiver manufacturers only give an 8 ohm rating, to conceal how much current their amps will actually deliver, so as to not loose sales.

Marketers are a perfect curse!

 

[fmw]

You are being logical, but on the more realistic or even pratical side, I am quite sure (still just guessing) a lot of marketing people would naturally think that for those who only want or afford a $300 AVR will likely be matching them with lower cost speakers and in smaller houses/rooms therefore would not likely even think about adding a multichannel amps. So why bother adding cost, any cost at all if they are unlikely going to be used? I know quite a few people who owns entry level AVRs and speakers and they thought their 5.1 HT systems sound great, with no thoughts of any need to upgrade. They also wouldn't have room or know how to add an external amplifier.

That's just my guess but now I do know for a fact that if I am serious enough about needing a potent power amplifier, I will not consider using entry level AVR to drive it, even if it is free of charge. I wouldn't use anything less than something like an Yamaha RX-A1010, Denon AVR-33XX or Anthem MRX, that's just me.

It is called line merchandising. Any modern AVR receiver will provide for the basics of driving a home theater. It will have enough amplifiers to reproduce the surround sound. It will have the proper decoding to send the correct signals to the correct amplifier. It will have appropriate connectivity to deal with normal input devices like BD players and video games and drive the TV monitor. Even the very least expensive ones have calibration routines and selectable processor effects. I'm willing to bet the bottom of the line receivers are barely profitable for the manufacturers. So lets add a couple of amps to our $200 receiver as well as a WiFi board and some firmware. Would that double the cost of making a receiver? No it wouldn't but it would certainly double the retail price of the unit. When we get to 11 amplifiers, preamp outputs, multi room processing and a bunch more firmware, should that put us at 10 times the price of the original entry unit? No, but it does. In other words, the manufacturer's profit on the higher end units increases progressively, maybe even geometrically. As the price of the unit increases, the list of features increases along with it but the cost to manufacture the unit only increases a little. That's how they make money. Nothing wrong with it. But good business practice would suggest that you should buy only the features you need and will use. Buying a more expensive unit because it is "better" makes less sense than one would think.

 

[cpp]

but there will always be a market for compromised, lower-cost designs that work fine about 99% of the time .

for 90% of the people that buy them

 

[PENG]

That statement is very sensible. It sounds as if they know there are hardly any 8 ohm speakers.

To sum it up the speaker manufacturers try and hide the true impedance so as to not loose sales.

The receiver manufacturers only give an 8 ohm rating, to conceal how much current their amps will actually deliver, so as to not loose sales.

Marketers are a perfect curse!

So we finally managed to agree on a couple of things, one being marketing always, or almost always, prevails..
By the way, I am sure some of us know you have no problem making your points but at the end of the day we also respect that you are not only knowledgeable but open minded in any such debates.

 

[DD66000]

You are being logical, but on the more realistic or even pratical side, I am quite sure (still just guessing) a lot of marketing people would naturally think that for those who only want or afford a $300 AVR will likely be matching them with lower cost speakers and in smaller houses/rooms therefore would not likely even think about adding a multichannel amps. So why bother adding cost, any cost at all if they are unlikely going to be used? I know quite a few people who owns entry level AVRs and speakers and they thought their 5.1 HT systems sound great, with no thoughts of any need to upgrade. They also wouldn't have room or know how to add an external amplifier.

That's just my guess but now I do know for a fact that if I am serious enough about needing a potent power amplifier, I will not consider using entry level AVR to drive it, even if it is free of charge. I wouldn't use anything less than something like an Yamaha RX-A1010, Denon AVR-33XX or Anthem MRX, that's just me.

Lets say a person buys a $300 AVR, b/c right at that point in time, that is the most he/she can spend.
But then discovers the main L/R speakers really need more power. IF that cheapo AVR has at least one pair of pre outs, for the L/R mains then he/she can buy just a stereo power amp to drive the mains.
Or maybe they just might have an old power amp, or stereo receiver w/main-in (HK 3390, 3490) to drive the fronts.
Adding one pair of pre outs would be adding next to nothing to the cost.

 

[PENG]

Adding one pair of pre outs would be adding next to nothing to the cost.

I fully agree with you it would be, but the marketing/sales group wouldn't give the design/engineering group a penny more to get that done. They know they would sell many more entry level units than the higher end units and the margins are typically much less for those entry level units already so they are there to squeeze every penny out of their design/production team. I worked in the manufacturing side for a long time...

 

[DD66000]

I fully agree with you it would be, but the marketing/sales group wouldn't give the design/engineering group a penny more to get that done. They know they would sell many more entry level units than the higher end units and the margins are typically much less for those entry level units already so they are there to squeeze every penny out of their design/production team. I worked in the manufacturing side for a long time...

Oh, yes, the marketing dept always have to stick their noses into the design. Its exactly the same for speaker manufacturers.
But in the real world, all these AVRs are being produced in China, or other equally cheap location.
These companies have already lowered their production costs to as low as they can get. Adding one pair of pre outs ain't going to kill the profit margin.

 

[Adam]

Adding one pair of pre outs ain't going to kill the profit margin.

Depends on your viewpoint. The post about line marketing from fmw was a good one. These companies do their research, look at what features people are looking for in each price bracket, look at what their competitors are offering, and plan their designs and model differences accordingly. Sometimes they get caught off guard (or just plain beat) by a competitor who offers more for less.

From what I can tell, companies that want to sell separate pre/pros at higher prices wouldn't be all that smart to offer a receiver at $300-$400 that has pre-amp outputs these days. Back when DACs and processors could differentiate a design, sure, but now?

I guess your focus is on pre-amp outputs just for the front speakers, so that wouldn't compete with a pre/pro. I just wonder how many people would take advantage of them. With feature sets changing on a yearly basis in receivers, someone who paid $300 for a receiver that can now afford to add an external amp may instead decide to just spend that money on a new receiver instead.

 

[DD66000]

Depends on your viewpoint. The post about line marketing from fmw was a good one. These companies do their research, look at what features people are looking for in each price bracket, look at what their competitors are offering, and plan their designs and model differences accordingly. Sometimes they get caught off guard (or just plain beat) by a competitor who offers more for less.

From what I can tell, companies that want to sell separate pre/pros at higher prices wouldn't be all that smart to offer a receiver at $300-$400 that has pre-amp outputs these days. Back when DACs and processors could differentiate a design, sure, but now?

I guess your focus is on pre-amp outputs just for the front speakers, so that wouldn't compete with a pre/pro. I just wonder how many people would take advantage of them. With feature sets changing on a yearly basis in receivers, someone who paid $300 for a receiver that can now afford to add an external amp may instead decide to just spend that money on a new receiver instead.

I have noticed some Marantz models have L/R pre outs. But I have no idea how those models sell compared to the models with no pre outs.
But like you say, L/R only outs would not be competing with their own pre/pros. I can certainly see having the AVR~pre/pro market split into 1/3s.
Low end AVR w/o, slightly higher AVR w/ L/R pre outs, top-o-line AVR w/full pre outs or a pre/pro.

 

[Adam]

I have noticed some Marantz models have L/R pre outs.

As luck would have it, I just took a Marantz NR1504 out of the box yesterday. It has those L/R pre outs, but oddly, there's no mention of using them in the manual that I can find. I also wish that the two pre outs would have let it run as a 7.1 receiver instead of a 5.1. At $500, people are paying for the shorter chassis height more than anything. It's rated at 50W/channel, so those pre outs might come in handy...but that seems to totally negate the point of spending extra for a more compact unit.

The Pioneer VSX-1123 also has front pre outs. I've seen it as low as $430, and it has quite a few features that I look for (such as DSD over HDMI) and is rated at 90W/channel (IIRC).

 

[fmw]

Adding one pair of pre outs ain't going to kill the profit margin.

Yes it is. The reason is that people who need them are going to buy the upscale, more expensive, more profitable version because they need the pre-outs. Forget manufacturing costs. Those are fixed. Profitability depends on how the manufacturer merchandises the line.

 

[Grador]

Yes it is. The reason is that people who need them are going to buy the upscale, more expensive, more profitable version because they need the pre-outs. Forget manufacturing costs. Those are fixed. Profitability depends on how the manufacturer merchandises the line.

Furthermore, if they did raise the price, even just a hair, to add these preouts they would be making their competitors seem like an even better value for the vast majority of people who don't want or even understand why you would have pre-outs. Sure I might want preouts on mine, but I'm not really in the market for a bottom level AVR, and if I were a $30 retail price could be pretty painful.

 

[DD66000]

Most AVR manufacturers have maybe 4, 5, 6 or more models at any one time. I am not saying all models need pre outs. Out of say, 5, maybe 1 or 2.
Obviously, if someone is running a 5.1 system with speakers barely bigger than your hand, those speaker do not need much power. So therefore that person only needs a low watt receiver w/o pre outs.
There are people on this and other forums, who would rather buy a cheap AVR, every few years, to stay up to date on tech, than pay out a huge amount for a pre/pro. Only to have it out dated in a couple of years. So if that person has a good stereo or MC amp, then he/she never has to give any though to how much power the AVR has. And just go for the features needed.