What's the Deal with Setting Speakers to Large vs Small??? Why SMALL???

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I gotta try that Pure Audio and give it a chance 3db. To me it seems to suck the life out of the recording and sound plain, but that's not fair on my part.

It wouldn't use it if it makes music lifeless.

Gotta stick w/ whatever sounds most enjoyable.

 

[internetmin]

Does anybody change the Bass settings for movies and another for music? I tend to keep it the same for both. After the mic aud I do my test with Jazz bass CD's to round off the sound I like for both Movie and Music.

Afterlife, I have set music and movies with two different settings. Anthem receivers and pre-pros allow you to have two different settings for two different source materials. Anthem calls them "Music" and "Movies" but it's just "source 1" and "source 2". By default, the Anthem puts "movies" and "music" at the same setting. However, I've generally preferred to put the movie setting to increase bass response by about +2db. I always keep music at a flat reference level. The +2 db tends to shake things up a bit more on the lower end without making the bass overpowering or boomy.

This is an automated setting in the Anthem that I can assign by source or with the presence of LFE so it's very flexible. Some subs, like the RELs have a "movie" switch that will effectively do something similar.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Denon/ Marantz have the CMMA (Cerebral Music Movie Automation).

They invented a separate 2Ch/Direct music custom setup just for 2.0/2.1 music vs 5.1/7.1 movies without you having to push any buttons whatsoever (automatic).

For instance, you can set the MCH setup to Small, LFE-THX, 80Hz, but then set the 2CH setup to Large, LFE+Main, -3dB Bass, 40Hz, etc.

So when you watch 5.1/7.1 DTS/DD movies, the AVR intelligently senses your desires and automatically uses the Small, LFE-THX, 80Hz setting.

When you listen to 2.0/2.1 music, the AVR intelligently senses your needs and automatically uses the Large, LFE+Main, -3dB Bass, 40Hz setting without having you waste precious basal energy arduously contemplating and physically pushing buttons.

... Unless you setup the 2Ch music exactly like the MCH setup.

 

[panteragstk]

Sure wish Harmon would release a stand alone RC solution like they have in the pro audio market. The DBX driverack is one of the coolest things I've used. The JBL studio monitors have their own RC too. I do wonder if the JBL synthesis is related to any of the pro audio products.

I've read a few places that NAD's implementation of Audyssey is "better" than other manufacturers. Makes me wonder what the difference is.

That little cheapo mic that came with my 809 doesn't inspire much confidence. The RTA mics that come with the Harmon products I mentioned earlier are much more accurate than that little thing could be.

I plan to get a miniDSP and their RTA mic for my sub EQ. I'm stuck with MultiEQ XT until I upgrade so I figure the miniDSP will help my subs out quite a bit. Plus I'll get accurate room measurements. Win win.

 

[avengineer]

Peng, I think you are saying that different brands of AVRs incoporate Audyssey differently, how well Audyssey XT32 (software) works depends on the model (brand) of AVR, yes or no.....or am I just crazy asking a question like that. It has been mentioned that different AVRs incorporate filters that are specific to the brand of AVR used, so I'm asking if Audyssey (XT32) for example will be different to each each brand of AVR in which it is implemented? Am I out of my mind here (don't answer that) I know I am

That is correct. The implementation differs from brand to brand and is also why the mics are not interchangeable.

Could you please back up the last quote? It's not been my experience, perhaps yours differs. When doing an XT Pro calibrations, we bring our own calibrated Audyssey mic and preamp with external software. The interface standards are only slightly different in where the preamp physically connects to the AVR. I have not seen differences in how Audyssey works, but have not had the chance to compare two different AVRs in the same room with the same mic locations. But there's no good reason they would be different when the goal is proper room cal. The measurement mic locations would be the biggest variable.

As to the differences in the supplied mics, yes they are incompatible with anything other than the AVR the come with, but it's mostly a mic cal curve issue, and possibly a hardware interface difference. The mics are obviously low cost units, and they are not instrumentation grade, but representative samples of the particular model and versions of the mics are tested and the correction curve burned into the AVR it comes with. The differences between mics of the same model are small, especially by comparison to the final room curves.

 

[afterlife2]

Although Audyssey mic does help, why does it leave everything in such a low volume? That's my main beef with it.

 

[avengineer]

Although Audyssey mic does help, why does it leave everything in such a low volume? That's my main beef with it.

Can you tell us more? What do you mean by leaving everything at such a low volume?

 

[3db]

When you listen to 2.0/2.1 music, the AVR intelligently senses your needs and automatically uses the Large, LFE+Main, -3dB Bass, 40Hz setting without having you waste precious basal energy arduously contemplating and physically pushing buttons.

I put the intelligence into the programming of the remote.

 

[internetmin]

Sure wish Harmon would release a stand alone RC solution like they have in the pro audio market. The DBX driverack is one of the coolest things I've used. The JBL studio monitors have their own RC too. I do wonder if the JBL synthesis is related to any of the pro audio products.

I've read a few places that NAD's implementation of Audyssey is "better" than other manufacturers. Makes me wonder what the difference is.

That little cheapo mic that came with my 809 doesn't inspire much confidence. The RTA mics that come with the Harmon products I mentioned earlier are much more accurate than that little thing could be.

I plan to get a miniDSP and their RTA mic for my sub EQ. I'm stuck with MultiEQ XT until I upgrade so I figure the miniDSP will help my subs out quite a bit. Plus I'll get accurate room measurements. Win win.

The quality of the microphone with the calibration solution indeed makes a difference. If you're using Audyssey and serious about the best performance, then you need to look at upgrading to the Audyssey Pro. With that, you get a calibrated microphone and you get before and after results. All of that is included by default with Anthem's solutions. However, with Audyssey, it's an upgrade. I had looked into this for a family member who had a product with Audyssey. I think it was an Integra that they had. My recollection is that it cost $700 to purchase the pro upgrade. So it's not the cheapest thing on the planet and you need to get the upgrade certificate from a reseller. If you're seriously interested, contact the folks at Audyssey and they will tell you all the details.

For average use, the stock microphone is "good enough". But, if you are indeed serious about the best performance, you need the pro upgrade.

 

[internetmin]

Can you tell us more? What do you mean by leaving everything at such a low volume?

I second this. After you calibrate with room EQ, it will set either -10 or 0 as what the processor defines as reference level.

 

[3db]

I gotta try that Pure Audio and give it a chance 3db. To me it seems to suck the life out of the recording and sound plain, but that's not fair on my part.

There are just too many variables from speakers to room acoustics, to layout to try and get the same experience I have with Pure Direct. If you are NOT happy with Pure Direct, don't bother using it. I'm lucky that Pure Direct happens to work well in my environment.

 

[afterlife2]

I second this. After you calibrate with room EQ, it will set either -10 or 0 as what the processor defines as reference level.

Thank you exactly what I meant. I turn mine up. I now know why some people watch movies at -8 volumes(cough, cough Fuzz).

 

[avengineer]

The quality of the microphone with the calibration solution indeed makes a difference. If you're using Audyssey and serious about the best performance, then you need to look at upgrading to the Audyssey Pro. With that, you get a calibrated microphone and you get before and after results. All of that is included by default with Anthem's solutions. However, with Audyssey, it's an upgrade. I had looked into this for a family member who had a product with Audyssey. I think it was an Integra that they had. My recollection is that it cost $700 to purchase the pro upgrade. So it's not the cheapest thing on the planet and you need to get the upgrade certificate from a reseller. If you're seriously interested, contact the folks at Audyssey and they will tell you all the details.

For average use, the stock microphone is "good enough". But, if you are indeed serious about the best performance, you need the pro upgrade.

Many feel this way. However, the quality of the mic, in other words, how flat its response its, is a relatively small factor overall. It's there, true, and has impact, but its deficiencies are known and at least partially compensated for in the system. There are also significant differences in the software between the built-in and Pro. The Audyssey Pro cal software offers many calibration options, including target curve selection and modification, etc., that don't exists in the basic built-in systems, and are kept out of the hands of consumers because the tools require knowledge and experience to use properly.

Another factor that most people miss is the advantage of having your Audyssey Pro XT32 system calibrated by a trained pro. There actually is a training program, albeit somewhat minimal, that we go through. The experience of calibrating lots of rooms, trouble-shooting systems prior to calibration (actually, that happens most times!), and knowing how to work with the system, how many measurement positions to use where, and fine tuning...well it's a process. Would it surprise anyone if I said it takes between 3 and 4 hours to complete the average Pro calibration to satisfaction?

For the cost of the Pro license and the Pro kit, you can have an expert do it for you, and get his experience. He might even let you watch and learn.

Anyone can buy a hammer...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I put the intelligence into the programming of the remote.

Ah, but see, pushing that remote button still requires 1 kcal energy.

The Denon/ Marantz approach requires zero kcal energy.

 

[panteragstk]

The quality of the microphone with the calibration solution indeed makes a difference. If you're using Audyssey and serious about the best performance, then you need to look at upgrading to the Audyssey Pro. With that, you get a calibrated microphone and you get before and after results. All of that is included by default with Anthem's solutions. However, with Audyssey, it's an upgrade. I had looked into this for a family member who had a product with Audyssey. I think it was an Integra that they had. My recollection is that it cost $700 to purchase the pro upgrade. So it's not the cheapest thing on the planet and you need to get the upgrade certificate from a reseller. If you're seriously interested, contact the folks at Audyssey and they will tell you all the details.

For average use, the stock microphone is "good enough". But, if you are indeed serious about the best performance, you need the pro upgrade.

Sadly my 809 is not "pro" compatible so I'd have to buy a new receiver to even try to use that feature.

 

[3db]

Ah, but see, pushing that remote button still requires 1 kcal energy.

The Denon/ Marantz approach requires zero kcal energy.

hence my remarkable physique!!

 

[PENG]

Thank you exactly what I meant. I turn mine up. I now know why some people watch movies at -8 volumes(cough, cough Fuzz).

I still don't understand why you meant by leaving at a low volume, can you please explain one more time? I have been through with two Denon and two Marantz now and have never notice anything unusual about how they set the levels. My L/R/C have always been set to +/- 1 to 2 and the sub between 0 to -5.

 

[PENG]

Peng, I think you are saying that different brands of AVRs incoporate Audyssey differently, how well Audyssey XT32 (software) works depends on the model (brand) of AVR, yes or no.....or am I just crazy asking a question like that.

According to Audyssey, the only differences are in the implementation of the user inferface.

 

[internetmin]

Many feel this way. However, the quality of the mic, in other words, how flat its response its, is a relatively small factor overall. It's there, true, and has impact, but its deficiencies are known and at least partially compensated for in the system. There are also significant differences in the software between the built-in and Pro. The Audyssey Pro cal software offers many calibration options, including target curve selection and modification, etc., that don't exists in the basic built-in systems, and are kept out of the hands of consumers because the tools require knowledge and experience to use properly.

Another factor that most people miss is the advantage of having your Audyssey Pro XT32 system calibrated by a trained pro. There actually is a training program, albeit somewhat minimal, that we go through. The experience of calibrating lots of rooms, trouble-shooting systems prior to calibration (actually, that happens most times!), and knowing how to work with the system, how many measurement positions to use where, and fine tuning...well it's a process. Would it surprise anyone if I said it takes between 3 and 4 hours to complete the average Pro calibration to satisfaction?

For the cost of the Pro license and the Pro kit, you can have an expert do it for you, and get his experience. He might even let you watch and learn.

Anyone can buy a hammer...

Agreed on all points. The biggest difference is clearly the software. I haven't heard the difference between the stock and pro versions but those who have heard the pro version swear by it.

 

[afterlife2]

I still don't understand why you meant by leaving at a low volume, can you please explain one more time? I have been through with two Denon and two Marantz now and have never notice anything unusual about how they set the levels. My L/R/C have always been set to +/- 1 to 2 and the sub between 0 to -5.

For example:
Front L/R -2.5
Center -4.0
Surround -10.0
Sub -10.0 (Sub 10 inches at 12 o'clock position)
All set to Large, except the surrounds at 40hz.(I have 4 inch bookshelf speakers as fronts)
This IMHO is way too low. This Is after doing Aud. mic 3 times.
I'm 10 feet away.