what dimension, shape and material is the ideal listening room?

TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Toole said he recommends the book to be read as a whole so I'm going by that. You're tempting me to jump chapters.:) I must resist, but can't wait to find this.

At first I took your 1131 feet/sec to be the speed of sound, but searching through available articles I can find almost all other numbers but this one, so I have to ask no matter how obvious it may seem to you; is it the speed of sound or some sort of median taking several air temperatures into account.

Even so, just by roughly calculating one of the modes I detected the source of boomines in my room.
Speed of sound is determined by altitude. 1131 fps is the speed at sea level. As explained elsewhere, doors and windows allow boundaries to flex, lowering predicted modes anyway, so sea level is a safe value for predictions.

But remember, it's not just identifying room modes in measurements. You need to consider how the Listening Position corresponds to your pressure source(s) to ensure the LP is in phase at all frequencies. Thats what it means to 'destructively or constructively drive waves'. Beyond room modes, subs (pressure sources) operating on the same wall will influence the acoustic phase at the listening position. So your sub positions vs. listening position can also create peaks and nulls that would be incorrectly treated with dsp. But you need to know your predicted room modes to tell the difference!
 
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killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
But remember, it's not just identifying room modes in measurements. You need to consider how the Listening Position corresponds to your pressure source(s) to ensure the LP is in phase at all frequencies.
Thanks, I'm aware of that. My small room made me place my LP very close against opposing wall only making it worse. And the result shows 64Hz to be the mode (340.29 m/s divided with 5.30 meters of hard concrete wall).
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Let's just stop here for a moment and not do injustice to yepimonfire. He wasn't talking about a perfect room. Quite the opposite. He was talking about what to be wary of in imperfect ones.
Hopefully I did not do injustice to @yepimonfire in my post. I did agree with all his points in his most excellent review of room influences. I did not find anything in his post to be lacking. I quite enjoyed it.

Your point killdozzer, is very similar to my own. Just because a room is imperfect doesn't mean you can't make it sound great. Understanding the nature of the imperfections is a key item to getting the most out of your equipment.

I usually take issue with absolutes: always, never, perfect etc etc. Absolutes exist in theory, but in the real world they are hard to come by. Perfect rooms are available in a textbook but in most peoples homes, they are elusive.

I'm going to sit down with Floyd Tooles' 3rd Edition later today and see how much I don't know. I suspect the pile of stuff I do know will end up being smaller than the pile of stuff I will be learning.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Hopefully I did not do injustice to @yepimonfire in my post. I did agree with all his points in his most excellent review of room influences. I did not find anything in his post to be lacking. I quite enjoyed it.

Your point killdozzer, is very similar to my own. Just because a room is imperfect doesn't mean you can't make it sound great. Understanding the nature of the imperfections is a key item to getting the most out of your equipment.

I usually take issue with absolutes: always, never, perfect etc etc. Absolutes exist in theory, but in the real world they are hard to come by. Perfect rooms are available in a textbook but in most peoples homes, they are elusive.

I'm going to sit down with Floyd Tooles' 3rd Edition later today and see how much I don't know. I suspect the pile of stuff I do know will end up being smaller than the pile of stuff I will be learning.
Okay, I've officially read posts from enough people here about Toole's new book that I'm gonna order it. I know he has a couple other editions. Is this the right one?

*Edit: Just saw at the top it says "1st Edition". I want the 3rd. I'll keep looking.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Thank you! I was looking for the wrong image.

View attachment 22100
I guess this is the hardback? Because the best price I found for this one was about $200. :confused:
hardcover was pushing $200 bucks. but the paperback was $52.
I almost always buy digital kindle books these days and don't get the paper.
But in this case I think the paperback is going to fit my usage much better.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
hardcover was pushing $200 bucks. but the paperback was $52.
I almost always buy digital kindle books these days and don't get the paper.
But in this case I think the paperback is going to fit my usage much better.
My main copy of 2nd edition has folded over pages, highlighted sections, notes... yeah you will want quick reference, and any spare white paper to add to! (I keep the autographed one clean :)

@Pogre That is the generic cover rendering before they released the actual image, but yes that is the third edition. Thought mine was getting delivered today... oh well...

For both of you: prepare to have your established beliefs challenged by countless tests, references, or just laws of physics! It may make you sound like a jerk off know it all on internet forums that doesn't trust Audyssey, but YMMV!
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
For both of you: prepare to have your established beliefs challenged by countless tests, references, or just laws of physics! It may make you sound like a jerk off know it all on internet forums that doesn't trust Audyssey, but YMMV!
I shall aspire to learn from someone that seems like a trustworthy source of information.
As for avoiding sounding like a know it all jerk off, there's a key principal a lot of experts could take more frequent advantage of then they currently do. When someone asks a question, just tell them what they need to know to answer the question instead of telling them everything that you know on the topic. The difference is subtle but you can certainly feel the difference.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I shall aspire to learn from someone that seems like a trustworthy source of information.
As for avoiding sounding like a know it all jerk off, there's a key principal a lot of experts could take more frequent advantage of then they currently do. When someone asks a question, just tell them what they need to know to answer the question instead of telling them everything that you know on the topic. The difference is subtle but you can certainly feel the difference.
I hear ya! But prepare to have your eyes opened even more to just how complicated the subject of sound reproduction is. And then we go and throw a free market at it. A lot of people want to simplify the subject, but there are just too many variables. There's a reason Floyd himself has not made many brief posts when responding on this forum.

I hope it helps your theater to reach a whole new level!
 
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Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
I think in my case, having a music only, 2, and 2.1 system tends to simplify things. Whereas, I only have to deal with a somewhat variable and specific (yet not equilateral) triangle throughout the room. I don't entertain a lot. The few people I do share with will fit in this sweet spot, or, I can pinpoint it for when I am in a critical mood, based on near field, or expanded near field tactics and before nulls and cancellation effects. Or at least a true stereo experience.

I think this option exists for a lot of people. Just not so much in a cut and dry, dedicated theater arrangement but, at least as a plan B with their main speakers.

The friend I audio with IRL, has the extreme opposite setup to mine, that employs all of the modern science and enough invested that would comparatively pay off years of my mrtg. The major difference (besides his being 7.1) just with the listening, if we were to forget all the expense comparisons and efforts being, his seemingly at times is hanging by a thread between great and disastrous. One measurement or patch away from total meltdown or indecisiveness. He ends up 2nd guessing what he is hearing a lot. From audiophilia, to perhaps. . . .audiophrenia.

Still, per my listening habits, if I were to build a music room, it would be patterned after this one I have now, and just scaled up a bit perhaps. 4 different types of speakers have worked well so far in this room. Of the 4 different types, it is the waveguide types that have taken the least amount of effort, and offered a much broader and adjustable sweet spot.
MrBoat
I'm still in the early chapters of Floyd Tooles 3rd Edition book, but he has re-inforced several items you mentioned in this thread. The first being that regular household items like couches, loveseats, bookshelfs and the "paraphernalia of life" help give good sound treatment to a room. You mentioned that in one of your posts: fill the room with your stuff and the sound should improve. Floyd Agrees.

He also says "good sound begins with good loudspeakers". Start with good speakers, like your Tempests, and everything else falls in to place. Start with flawed speakers and nothing else is going to really make it right.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
MrBoat
I'm still in the early chapters of Floyd Tooles 3rd Edition book, but he has re-inforced several items you mentioned in this thread. The first being that regular household items like couches, loveseats, bookshelfs and the "paraphernalia of life" help give good sound treatment to a room. You mentioned that in one of your posts: fill the room with your stuff and the sound should improve. Floyd Agrees.

He also says "good sound begins with good loudspeakers". Start with good speakers, like your Tempests, and everything else falls in to place. Start with flawed speakers and nothing else is going to really make it right.
Floyd's room is a marvel, and convinced me that a dedicated room is not necessary. Home theater should be a social experience, and that's what I saw. He and his wife are art collectors, and he uses that art to his advantage. He has a large TV set slightly forward with amps and center channel underneath. Behind are bronze 'dancing' figures, the curves of the dancers are natural diffusors. He uses bookshelves as well, and hides thick absorption in the drapes. The carpeting was placed in the middle of the tile floor with heavy padding underneath. The carpet's exact placement was measured so that it absorbs the floor bounce that would collide with your ears.

His double blind tests will explain exactly what he means by 'good loudspeakers'. The spinorama (that became CTA 2034) is the reference standard for defining 'good', and was correlated to the subjective, double blind listening tests as a near guarantee of listener preference. Originally I think .86 correlation (86% guarantee), which Sean Olive had improved upon since.

I made a mistake in my Bookshelf speaker review because I listened in stereo. My experience with Floyd, and going to the research facility that houses their 'speaker shuffler' made that choice overwhelmingly clear. Listening in mono reveals SO much about the personality of a speaker that is otherwise masked in stereo.

Having suggested mono listening to others, I often hear, "But we usually listen in stereo."

Do we? Surround sound is mixed into individual channels, with the center, receiving a mono signal, dominating the sound output as it receives at least 80% of the sound track. All the surround channels are mono too. So it's pretty important for a speaker to perform well by itself.

I can't get a consistent delivery date, so maybe mine will come today...
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
.

I can't get a consistent delivery date, so maybe mine will come today...
When I ordered my book from Amazon the book had been released and was "available", but you couldn't actually get one. Amazon took pre-orders and projected a date. They told me they wouldn't charge me until it shipped and I was patient enough, and confident enough, that I simply ordered it and would be content when it arrived.

I think it took a couple of weeks, but, it did indeed arrive a few days ago. I got the paperback version.
Like I said previously, I normally only get Kindle or digital books these days. Its the rare book that I want to read, read again and dissect. Those I want the paper copy. I've already been busy marking my copy up.

On the AH, the temptation is to start quoting Floyd on nearly every thread that spawns. I know many of the staple themes on AH come directly from his work because you can hear his words in the words of some of our more consistent members. I am already trying to resist the temptation to be a Floyd fanboy and quote him ad nauseum. I am truly enjoying the book. He's my kind of guy.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
When I ordered my book from Amazon the book had been released and was "available", but you couldn't actually get one. Amazon took pre-orders and projected a date. They told me they wouldn't charge me until it shipped and I was patient enough, and confident enough, that I simply ordered it and would be content when it arrived.

I think it took a couple of weeks, but, it did indeed arrive a few days ago. I got the paperback version.
Like I said previously, I normally only get Kindle or digital books these days. Its the rare book that I want to read, read again and dissect. Those I want the paper copy. I've already been busy marking my copy up.

On the AH, the temptation is to start quoting Floyd on nearly every thread that spawns. I know many of the staple themes on AH come directly from his work because you can hear his words in the words of some of our more consistent members. I am already trying to resist the temptation to be a Floyd fanboy and quote him ad nauseum. I am truly enjoying the book. He's my kind of guy.
I preordered the hard cover in July, perhaps the different printing is the issue. The spine on my first copy is definitely suffering!

Floyd is unique in his approach to studying sound. But his knowledge is overwhelming. I've enjoyed seeing the evolution of his writing as it can definitely be difficult to digest. Every sentence is critical. Can't tell you how many times I've had to go back over certain things to fully absorb.

Glad you are enjoying it!
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
I preordered the hard cover in July, perhaps the different printing is the issue. The spine on my first copy is definitely suffering!

Floyd is unique in his approach to studying sound. But his knowledge is overwhelming. I've enjoyed seeing the evolution of his writing as it can definitely be difficult to digest. Every sentence is critical. Can't tell you how many times I've had to go back over certain things to fully absorb.

Glad you are enjoying it!
yes, if you chose hardcover that could definitely be the difference. I always thought hardcovers came out first because there's higher margins and prices available. But in a niche book, and this qualifies as a niche, maybe digital comes first, then paper, trailed by hardcover.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
MrBoat
I'm still in the early chapters of Floyd Tooles 3rd Edition book, but he has re-inforced several items you mentioned in this thread. The first being that regular household items like couches, loveseats, bookshelfs and the "paraphernalia of life" help give good sound treatment to a room. You mentioned that in one of your posts: fill the room with your stuff and the sound should improve. Floyd Agrees.

He also says "good sound begins with good loudspeakers". Start with good speakers, like your Tempests, and everything else falls in to place. Start with flawed speakers and nothing else is going to really make it right.
Rooms that are cozy for us as a whole, are typically cozy for sound as such.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
The 2nd edition is the one I started reading, but I didn't get to Ch.13. I'm reading it cover to cover.


Thank you for the formula. I know it is important and I'm slowly preparing to finish the system I imagined. This will come in handy.




Do I feel silly...
Sorry for that. Your second sentence almost made me think we could be friends. If you don't allow "special new age style magical thinking" elsewhere, you're almost there.




Let's just stop here for a moment and not do injustice to yepimonfire. He wasn't talking about a perfect room. Quite the opposite. He was talking about what to be wary of in imperfect ones. I think that if one would change the language slightly to make it more precise and less referential, knowledge would take hold easier and flourish more abundantly. People would have to stop thinking that it is their systems they are trying to make sound good. It is their rooms they are trying to make sound good. There's a beautiful word in my language "ozvučiti" (you'd read it like this; oh-zwoo-chee-tee). It means to imbue something with sound. To add an attribute of emitting sound to something that previously didn't posses this attribute. Think of it like this; power-empower / sound-ensound, "ensound" would be a proper translation of "ozvučiti".

Systems are a mean of ensounding your room. The room will play in the end.

This is why knowing what certain surfaces do to sound is important. If your room will cancel out a needed frequency, you have to try and do something about it.
Most rooms can be worked with, some are going to give better results then others, but unfortunately, there are rooms where you will end up with awful sound no matter what you do. My 12x11 room is one of them. I have literally tried placing the subwoofer all over the room and it sound very boomy and measures terrible no matter what I do. When speaking about good vs bad room dimensions, I’m really only looking at low frequencies, since this is the hardest to control, and you are pretty much stuck with it. Below 100hz, room treatments are impractical, especially in domestic settings. Some rooms sound good without fussy placement, some rooms can enhance the low frequency extension, and some rooms measure so poorly that multiple subs and heavy usage of eq still leaves you with sloppy, bloated bass response.

In most cases, larger rooms with dimensions longer than the width provide a flatter response, although you do lose some boundary gain. Since longer dimensions generally push the room modes down below 30hz, where a majority of subs start struggling, a peak at say, 20hz is only going to help rather than hurt. In my experience, room dimensions that give modes spaced an octave apart have a positive effect on low frequency response and sub efficiency. Two room modes with a center frequency of 50hz and 40 hz will give a boomy one note response, on the other hand, if we have modes at 20hz and 50hz, you will get a fairly even gain across the low frequency range, response below 30hz will be extended, and the gain will more or less raise the entire low frequency spectrum evenly, since you will also have gains at 40hz, 80hz, and 100hz. This is the type of room where a sub is likely to sound good in a corner.

I do agree that a room is sometimes a bigger factor in sound quality than speakers themselves, especially when it come to low frequencies, but at the same time, at higher frequencies, it’s often the speaker to blame for poor sound in room, assuming the room isn’t overly reverberant, which would cause temporal smearing.

When it comes to the speakers influence on the room at midrange and high frequencies, I’m a big fan of controlled dispersion. Since the timbre we hear is a combination of direct and reflected sound, it’s important that the reflected sound is spectrally similar to the direct sound. The speakers I’m currently using have a controlled dispersion of +-45 degrees up to 14khz. within this 90 degree area the response measures nearly the same off and on axis. Further out than 45 degrees the high frequency response falls off evenly, with no major anomalies. The speakers are two feet from the side walls, 3.9 feet from the floor, and a little over 4 feet from the ceiling. Since these distances are well within the coverage pattern, the sound is more or less the same no matter the location in the room. The reflected sound is similar to the direct sound, and outside of normal aberrations at lower frequencies, I can measure a +- 5dB response from anywhere in the room.


All speakers will narrow in dispersion as frequency increases, and widen as it decreases, it is nearly impossible to build a speaker with perfect directivity because single drivers must cover frequencies that vary in wavelength in proportion to the diameter of the driver, however, reasonably good control over the highest frequencies can be achieved with horns and waveguides, while matched directivity across woofer and lower frequencies can be achieved through the use of multiway systems, and smart crossover points, a majority of systems are crossed over at 2.5-3khz, at frequencies this high, many 5.25” and 6” driver begin beaming, while the tweeter has a very wide dispersion because it is small in relation to the wavelength. Using a crossover lower crossover point can help maintain similar directivity between the tweeter and woofer, which reduces lobing off axis. Lenard from Lenard audio is a big supporter of 4 way systems for this reason. See http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/05_speakers.html

Another great article on directivity http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/category/blog/acoustics/speaker-directivity/

A speaker with increasingly directional dispersion at high frequencies , or worse, uneven dispersion and lobing, is going to vary significantly from room to room, and from seat to seat, a speaker with controlled dispersion, void of lobing off axis, will provide spectrally similar sound to every seat within the defined coverage pattern, and the effect on the timbre from room reflections will be minimal. A majority of cinema speakers are designed with a coverage pattern of 90x60 horizontal/vertical. The two major providers of cinema speaker systems are JBL and Klipsch, I believe QSC also designs cinema systems, but I don’t know enough about them to comment. Both companies have put a great deal of effort into achieving controlled directivity with an even off axis response across the coverage pattern. This is why the timbre sounds more or less the same regardless of whether you sit all the way in the left or right seats(horizontally off axis), or in the front or back of the cinema (vertically off axis)

Floyd toole advocates speakers with wide dispersion, geddes advocates speakers with narrower dispersion, but both of them agree on one thing, that controlled directivity and an even response off axis is paramount to getting good sound in room. I think for the purposes of home theater, where there are multiple seats, many of them at least somewhat off axis, a wider dispersion is desirable up to a certain point. A speaker can have a flat response on axis within 2dB, but if the response rolls off steeply at high frequencies off axis, or becomes uneven, you’ll never hear that flat response in a real room, because that ragged off axis sound is what will be reflected off the walls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Most rooms can be worked with, some are going to give better results then others, but unfortunately, there are rooms where you will end up with awful sound no matter what you do. My 12x11 room is one of them. I have literally tried placing the subwoofer all over the room and it sound very boomy and measures terrible no matter what I do. When speaking about good vs bad room dimensions, I’m really only looking at low frequencies, since this is the hardest to control, and you are pretty much stuck with it. Below 100hz, room treatments are impractical, especially in domestic settings. Some rooms sound good without fussy placement, some rooms can enhance the low frequency extension, and some rooms measure so poorly that multiple subs and heavy usage of eq still leaves you with sloppy, bloated bass response.

In most cases, larger rooms with dimensions longer than the width provide a flatter response, although you do lose some boundary gain. Since longer dimensions generally push the room modes down below 30hz, where a majority of subs start struggling, a peak at say, 20hz is only going to help rather than hurt. In my experience, room dimensions that give modes spaced an octave apart have a positive effect on low frequency response and sub efficiency. Two room modes with a center frequency of 50hz and 40 hz will give a boomy one note response, on the other hand, if we have modes at 20hz and 50hz, you will get a fairly even gain across the low frequency range, response below 30hz will be extended, and the gain will more or less raise the entire low frequency spectrum evenly, since you will also have gains at 40hz, 80hz, and 100hz. This is the type of room where a sub is likely to sound good in a corner.

I do agree that a room is sometimes a bigger factor in sound quality than speakers themselves, especially when it come to low frequencies, but at the same time, at higher frequencies, it’s often the speaker to blame for poor sound in room, assuming the room isn’t overly reverberant, which would cause temporal smearing.

When it comes to the speakers influence on the room at midrange and high frequencies, I’m a big fan of controlled dispersion. Since the timbre we hear is a combination of direct and reflected sound, it’s important that the reflected sound is spectrally similar to the direct sound. The speakers I’m currently using have a controlled dispersion of +-45 degrees up to 14khz. within this 90 degree area the response measures nearly the same off and on axis. Further out than 45 degrees the high frequency response falls off evenly, with no major anomalies. The speakers are two feet from the side walls, 3.9 feet from the floor, and a little over 4 feet from the ceiling. Since these distances are well within the coverage pattern, the sound is more or less the same no matter the location in the room. The reflected sound is similar to the direct sound, and outside of normal aberrations at lower frequencies, I can measure a +- 5dB response from anywhere in the room.


All speakers will narrow in dispersion as frequency increases, and widen as it decreases, it is nearly impossible to build a speaker with perfect directivity because single drivers must cover frequencies that vary in wavelength in proportion to the diameter of the driver, however, reasonably good control over the highest frequencies can be achieved with horns and waveguides, while matched directivity across woofer and lower frequencies can be achieved through the use of multiway systems, and smart crossover points, a majority of systems are crossed over at 2.5-3khz, at frequencies this high, many 5.25” and 6” driver begin beaming, while the tweeter has a very wide dispersion because it is small in relation to the wavelength. Using a crossover lower crossover point can help maintain similar directivity between the tweeter and woofer, which reduces lobing off axis. Lenard from Lenard audio is a big supporter of 4 way systems for this reason. See http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/05_speakers.html

Another great article on directivity http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/category/blog/acoustics/speaker-directivity/

A speaker with increasingly directional dispersion at high frequencies , or worse, uneven dispersion and lobing, is going to vary significantly from room to room, and from seat to seat, a speaker with controlled dispersion, void of lobing off axis, will provide spectrally similar sound to every seat within the defined coverage pattern, and the effect on the timbre from room reflections will be minimal. A majority of cinema speakers are designed with a coverage pattern of 90x60 horizontal/vertical. The two major providers of cinema speaker systems are JBL and Klipsch, I believe QSC also designs cinema systems, but I don’t know enough about them to comment. Both companies have put a great deal of effort into achieving controlled directivity with an even off axis response across the coverage pattern. This is why the timbre sounds more or less the same regardless of whether you sit all the way in the left or right seats(horizontally off axis), or in the front or back of the cinema (vertically off axis)

Floyd toole advocates speakers with wide dispersion, geddes advocates speakers with narrower dispersion, but both of them agree on one thing, that controlled directivity and an even response off axis is paramount to getting good sound in room. I think for the purposes of home theater, where there are multiple seats, many of them at least somewhat off axis, a wider dispersion is desirable up to a certain point. A speaker can have a flat response on axis within 2dB, but if the response rolls off steeply at high frequencies off axis, or becomes uneven, you’ll never hear that flat response in a real room, because that ragged off axis sound is what will be reflected off the walls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
OK, OK, I get it. Just send me your account number.:)

Joking aside, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I see that even understanding your post requires me to read some more Toole (like "flat response on axis within 2dB"). But, I'll get there. It's a good thing posts here don't get erased. I still go back to many of comments I got way back.

My room is not big enough not to matter. And "atomic shelter grade" concrete surely doesn't help.

What I did yesterday was to pull my speakers from the wall just for another few inches. I swear I'd rate them 15-20% better sounding. Even with my LP still being close to the back wall (as this is what the final listening arrangement will have to be). I think the shape is good, but it'll have to deteriorate slightly. One wall needs to be knocked down for non-audio reasons.
upload_2017-9-2_11-47-16.jpeg

When that wall comes down, the right channel will have no side barrier, while the left will. We plan to connect the kitchen and the living room. The speakers will be removed from the back wall and one sub will be added. I'm suspecting the balance on my amp will always be tilted +1 or +2 in favour of the right channel just to keep the sweet spot at my LP.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Most rooms can be worked with, some are going to give better results then others, but unfortunately, there are rooms where you will end up with awful sound no matter what you do. My 12x11 room is one of them. I have literally tried placing the subwoofer all over the room and it sound very boomy and measures terrible no matter what I do. When speaking about good vs bad room dimensions, I’m really only looking at low frequencies, since this is the hardest to control, and you are pretty much stuck with it. Below 100hz, room treatments are impractical, especially in domestic settings. Some rooms sound good without fussy placement, some rooms can enhance the low frequency extension, and some rooms measure so poorly that multiple subs and heavy usage of eq still leaves you with sloppy, bloated bass response.

In most cases, larger rooms with dimensions longer than the width provide a flatter response, although you do lose some boundary gain. Since longer dimensions generally push the room modes down below 30hz, where a majority of subs start struggling, a peak at say, 20hz is only going to help rather than hurt. In my experience, room dimensions that give modes spaced an octave apart have a positive effect on low frequency response and sub efficiency. Two room modes with a center frequency of 50hz and 40 hz will give a boomy one note response, on the other hand, if we have modes at 20hz and 50hz, you will get a fairly even gain across the low frequency range, response below 30hz will be extended, and the gain will more or less raise the entire low frequency spectrum evenly, since you will also have gains at 40hz, 80hz, and 100hz. This is the type of room where a sub is likely to sound good in a corner.

I do agree that a room is sometimes a bigger factor in sound quality than speakers themselves, especially when it come to low frequencies, but at the same time, at higher frequencies, it’s often the speaker to blame for poor sound in room, assuming the room isn’t overly reverberant, which would cause temporal smearing.

When it comes to the speakers influence on the room at midrange and high frequencies, I’m a big fan of controlled dispersion. Since the timbre we hear is a combination of direct and reflected sound, it’s important that the reflected sound is spectrally similar to the direct sound. The speakers I’m currently using have a controlled dispersion of +-45 degrees up to 14khz. within this 90 degree area the response measures nearly the same off and on axis. Further out than 45 degrees the high frequency response falls off evenly, with no major anomalies. The speakers are two feet from the side walls, 3.9 feet from the floor, and a little over 4 feet from the ceiling. Since these distances are well within the coverage pattern, the sound is more or less the same no matter the location in the room. The reflected sound is similar to the direct sound, and outside of normal aberrations at lower frequencies, I can measure a +- 5dB response from anywhere in the room.


All speakers will narrow in dispersion as frequency increases, and widen as it decreases, it is nearly impossible to build a speaker with perfect directivity because single drivers must cover frequencies that vary in wavelength in proportion to the diameter of the driver, however, reasonably good control over the highest frequencies can be achieved with horns and waveguides, while matched directivity across woofer and lower frequencies can be achieved through the use of multiway systems, and smart crossover points, a majority of systems are crossed over at 2.5-3khz, at frequencies this high, many 5.25” and 6” driver begin beaming, while the tweeter has a very wide dispersion because it is small in relation to the wavelength. Using a crossover lower crossover point can help maintain similar directivity between the tweeter and woofer, which reduces lobing off axis. Lenard from Lenard audio is a big supporter of 4 way systems for this reason. See http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/05_speakers.html

Another great article on directivity http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/category/blog/acoustics/speaker-directivity/

A speaker with increasingly directional dispersion at high frequencies , or worse, uneven dispersion and lobing, is going to vary significantly from room to room, and from seat to seat, a speaker with controlled dispersion, void of lobing off axis, will provide spectrally similar sound to every seat within the defined coverage pattern, and the effect on the timbre from room reflections will be minimal. A majority of cinema speakers are designed with a coverage pattern of 90x60 horizontal/vertical. The two major providers of cinema speaker systems are JBL and Klipsch, I believe QSC also designs cinema systems, but I don’t know enough about them to comment. Both companies have put a great deal of effort into achieving controlled directivity with an even off axis response across the coverage pattern. This is why the timbre sounds more or less the same regardless of whether you sit all the way in the left or right seats(horizontally off axis), or in the front or back of the cinema (vertically off axis)

Floyd toole advocates speakers with wide dispersion, geddes advocates speakers with narrower dispersion, but both of them agree on one thing, that controlled directivity and an even response off axis is paramount to getting good sound in room. I think for the purposes of home theater, where there are multiple seats, many of them at least somewhat off axis, a wider dispersion is desirable up to a certain point. A speaker can have a flat response on axis within 2dB, but if the response rolls off steeply at high frequencies off axis, or becomes uneven, you’ll never hear that flat response in a real room, because that ragged off axis sound is what will be reflected off the walls.


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Share what inputs you've made, and the exact placement of your subs in the room compared to the LP as well as what subs and how many are being used. A small room is just another room. Let's get it right!
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
OK, OK, I get it. Just send me your account number.:)

Joking aside, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I see that even understanding your post requires me to read some more Toole (like "flat response on axis within 2dB"). But, I'll get there. It's a good thing posts here don't get erased. I still go back to many of comments I got way back.

My room is not big enough not to matter. And "atomic shelter grade" concrete surely doesn't help.

What I did yesterday was to pull my speakers from the wall just for another few inches. I swear I'd rate them 15-20% better sounding. Even with my LP still being close to the back wall (as this is what the final listening arrangement will have to be). I think the shape is good, but it'll have to deteriorate slightly. One wall needs to be knocked down for non-audio reasons.
View attachment 22119
When that wall comes down, the right channel will have no side barrier, while the left will. We plan to connect the kitchen and the living room. The speakers will be removed from the back wall and one sub will be added. I'm suspecting the balance on my amp will always be tilted +1 or +2 in favour of the right channel just to keep the sweet spot at my LP.
Would you be able to rotate your whole orientation counterclockwise(as viewed from above) so it's on the 12.3' wall? That might give you some extra room to pull your speakers off the wall, and get the LP off the wall too.
 
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