what dimension, shape and material is the ideal listening room?

killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Would you be able to rotate your whole orientation counterclockwise(as viewed from above) so it's on the 12.3' wall? That might give you some extra room to pull your speakers off the wall, and get the LP off the wall too.
He, that's an obvious solution, I've thought about it a lot, but it's not an option. One 12.3 is coming down and the other is wall to wall large windows and a central heating unit mounted on the wall. I also have a projector and at the moment I'm using the wall to project on (until I get a decent canvas screen). I watch movies on the 12.3 that will eventually come down because it's big enough and empty, I can have 125" screen, it's marvelous.

But if I do tear it down, the opposite 12.3 wall is good for nothing. Pulling speakers of the wall will not be a problem, they'll have their dedicated stands and at least 17" from the walls.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
OK, OK, I get it. Just send me your account number.:)

Joking aside, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I see that even understanding your post requires me to read some more Toole (like "flat response on axis within 2dB"). But, I'll get there. It's a good thing posts here don't get erased. I still go back to many of comments I got way back.

My room is not big enough not to matter. And "atomic shelter grade" concrete surely doesn't help.

What I did yesterday was to pull my speakers from the wall just for another few inches. I swear I'd rate them 15-20% better sounding. Even with my LP still being close to the back wall (as this is what the final listening arrangement will have to be). I think the shape is good, but it'll have to deteriorate slightly. One wall needs to be knocked down for non-audio reasons.
View attachment 22119
When that wall comes down, the right channel will have no side barrier, while the left will. We plan to connect the kitchen and the living room. The speakers will be removed from the back wall and one sub will be added. I'm suspecting the balance on my amp will always be tilted +1 or +2 in favour of the right channel just to keep the sweet spot at my LP.
Scooting my speakers further from my wall made a much bigger difference than I anticipated. What speakers do you have? I'm just curious as I don't think I've seen what you have. Rear ported speakers? Mine are. I really like Liam's suggestion too.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Yes, rear ported. KEF LS50. I was also amazed by the result after simply moving them further away from the back wall.

Who is Liam?
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Nice speakers, btw.
Ahhh, thank you. They really are (thanking, among others, @KenM10759 for the purchase). As if they were forged for me. I can listen to them 8-10 hours a day (and I do when I work from home) and still not get tired of them. I want SVS SB13 Ultra with them, but it is expensive so I have to wait to put enough money on the side. heh, one day...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Ahhh, thank you. They really are (thanking, among others, @KenM10759 for the purchase). As if they were forged for me. I can listen to them 8-10 hours a day (and I do when I work from home) and still not get tired of them. I want SVS SB13 Ultra with them, but it is expensive so I have to wait to put enough money on the side. heh, one day...
I'm really happy with my Ultras and tend to listen to music all day as well. I've read nothing but good about the kefs you have also.

I want a pair of PB16 Ultras, but the cost.... phew. I settled for a pair of Hsu VTF-3 MK5's. They sound awesome, but they ain't nearly as purty as the Ultras.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
I want a pair of PB16 Ultras, but the cost.... phew.
:D:D:D Man, how big is your music room?? If I put two PB16 in my living room, the sound might be amazing but no one would fit inside to hear it. I'd have to move out. Check this out:
upload_2017-9-2_19-9-25.jpeg


If they ever decide to produce in China they could smuggle Chinese in the USA.

I mean, I'm happy for you, don't get me wrong. That's a good size audio room.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
:D:D:D Man, how big is your music room?? If I put two PB16 in my living room, the sound might be amazing but no one would fit inside to hear it. I'd have to move out. Check this out:
View attachment 22127

If they ever decide to produce in China they could smuggle Chinese in the USA.

I mean, I'm happy for you, don't get me wrong. That's a good size audio room.
I have a great room layout that opens to a side room, kitchen and a hallway. I roughed some math off a few quick measurements and came up with ~5900^3' of space to pressurize. Hell, I've been scheming a way to get 2 more! lol
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Share what inputs you've made, and the exact placement of your subs in the room compared to the LP as well as what subs and how many are being used. A small room is just another room. Let's get it right!
The sub is currently on the front wall, about midway to the left. seat is a foot from the rear wall. There is a closet with free hanging mirror doors occupying 1/3 of the right front wall. For some odd reason, placing the sub anywhere on the right side of the room causes extreme cancellation of everything below 50hz, I suspect it has something to do with standing waves coming from the closet. I have 12-15dB peak at 50hz at almost every location in the room that isn’t a null point.

I’ve literally tried placing the sub everywhere, in each four corners, midpoints of the walls, pulled out from the walls, etc. I get one of two results, extreme dips or extreme peaks there is no “relatively flat” spot. Even room correction can’t seem to fix the problem without creating more. If you have a solution, please tell me, because I have given up on it.

Luckily, this is just my bedroom system, I go out of my way to use the main system in the living room for all but casual tv watching.


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M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Most rooms can be worked with, some are going to give better results then others, but unfortunately, there are rooms where you will end up with awful sound no matter what you do. My 12x11 room is one of them. I have literally tried placing the subwoofer all over the room and it sound very boomy and measures terrible no matter what I do.
Just curious but, what size subwoofer do you have in this 12x11 room? What are the size of the woofers in your main speakers and what do you typically cross them over at.

The reason I ask is, the often prescribed generalizations with subwoofer displacement ratios with regard to main speaker size/power, is absolutely backwards in some situations. In my room, I can get a 5" subwoofer to make believable bass in here and 4" midrange speakers of sufficient power to fill the room in that range.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
The sub is currently on the front wall, about midway to the left. seat is a foot from the rear wall. There is a closet with free hanging mirror doors occupying 1/3 of the right front wall. For some odd reason, placing the sub anywhere on the right side of the room causes extreme cancellation of everything below 50hz, I suspect it has something to do with standing waves coming from the closet. I have 12-15dB peak at 50hz at almost every location in the room that isn’t a null point.

I’ve literally tried placing the sub everywhere, in each four corners, midpoints of the walls, pulled out from the walls, etc. I get one of two results, extreme dips or extreme peaks there is no “relatively flat” spot. Even room correction can’t seem to fix the problem without creating more. If you have a solution, please tell me, because I have given up on it.

Luckily, this is just my bedroom system, I go out of my way to use the main system in the living room for all but casual tv watching.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mirror doors? No wonder you don't like first reflections!

What sub(s) is this? If you think you've found the optimal location, show me 20-1000 hz with and without Audyssey 1/24 octave with phase.

If you want to switch to PM, perhaps...
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Just curious but, what size subwoofer do you have in this 12x11 room? What are the size of the woofers in your main speakers and what do you typically cross them over at.

The reason I ask is, the often prescribed generalizations with subwoofer displacement ratios with regard to main speaker size/power, is absolutely backwards in some situations. In my room, I can get a 5" subwoofer to make believable bass in here and 4" midrange speakers of sufficient power to fill the room in that range.
I have a 10” sub and two small Polk owm3s mounted on the wall crossed over at 120hz.

In my main room, I have a 15” Dayton sub 1500, which has an f3 of 23hz. I have it about a foot out from the wall and around 2’ from the corner. I get a relatively flat response down to 25hz. My seating position is 9’ from the sub, the room is 20x12. With this sub, I can achieve a maximum of 108dB at 25hz and 105 dB from 31hz-60hz. The reason I can achieve a higher spl at 25hz is because the port is tuned to 23hz, so there is very little motion of the woofer and impedance is high, so little power is required. Above 105dB, I run out of xmax.

My situation is a bit different. I only get about 3dB of reinforcement from my room, because the room opens up to two split-level staircases at the back, essentially behaving as if there is little to no boundary in the rear. The plus side to this is a very flat bass response through most of the room without the need for eq.

All five of my floor level speakers have 5.25” drivers with a box tuning of 63hz, since 1/2 wavelength of 47hz is 12’ (24’ wavelength), I get reinforcement along the width of the room (12’) at 47hz, extending the floor channels to 50hz -3dB, my ceiling mounted speakers have a response of 92hz anechoic, my room is about 8’ tall, 70hz has a wavelength of about 16’, therefore at 8’, 70hz is reinforced along the height dimension of the room, extending the response to 80hz. While I should technically receive reinforcement along the length dimensions of the room at 28hz, the openings in the rear hamper that.

Like I said, depending on the speakers relative to the room modes, some rooms can be perfect, essentially extending the response of your system, mine just happens to have exactly the right dimensions to receive an extra 10hz of extension from my speakers.

Whether or not you need a big subwoofer depends entirely on the seating distance and room dimensions. Placing a sub in a corner in a well sealed room nets an extra 6dB, however, depending on the room dimensions this boost could be an ugly 1 note boomy boost. Placing a sub along a wall out of a corner, where response will likely be flatter, should net 3dB.

Getting enough spl at sub bass frequencies is no joke of a task. In order to make a driver have a lower resonant frequency, and therefore response, you must make it heavier. This reduces efficiency. Low frequencies are substantially larger than even the biggest sub drivers, and therefore drivers have very poor coupling to the air at those frequencies. It’s not uncommon for sub drivers to have an efficiency as low as 83dB at 1w. To achieve normal levels of bass for the average ht requires about 100-110dB of output at the mlp, for an 85dB driver placed 10’ away requires about 500-1000 watts. Since excursion quadruples with each octave decrease, a 12” driver would need 70 inches of xmax just to reach 105dB at 25hz at a distance of 10’. As you can see most consumer subs fail to truly be capable of reference output. A port cuts the xmax in half, and the room adds 3dB of reinforcement, but that’s still 24mm of xmax, very few subs can handle that.





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Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I used the Audio Engneering Society Room Ratio 1:1.57:1.87.

= 14'H:22'W:26'L
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
I used the Audio Engneering Society Room Ratio 1:1.57:1.87.

= 14'H:22'W:26'L
You lucky basta... We should have an "useless" rating for posts next to useful.:D I'm happy for you, but how can I benefit from that?:)
 

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