Voting On Tuesday ?

[Halon451]

When was America last attacked prior to 9/11?

1993: Bombing of the World Trade Center

There are no rocks being thrown by me.

I know Highlander - Joe and I kind of got into it maybe a little too much in the interest of civility; we've come to an agreement via PM, so we can kind of reel this back in before it gets out of hand.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

You are suggesting that the war is an attempt to eradicate Islam by force? Come on, not even the Shrub is stupid enough to imagine that that is possible. No, the war has never been about anything other than oil.

Well like most you did not read through the site or you are in denial. Second, if it was about oil then we would be paying 25 cents a gallon now and that is clearly not the case last time I filled up. It's not about OIL What part of ISALMO FASCISTS WANT US ALL DEAD do you not understand?

 

[stratman]

They would say the same about you.



Yes while I would go and fight for their right to say and believe the hate that they spew. They on other hand find it expedient to lay down and get killed by those they coddle. That my friend is the difference between me and them, I give a damn about my country's welfare even at the cost of war. Reminds me of the comparison between Winston Churchill and Neville Chamberlain.

 

[Halon451]

Let us also not forget that the majority of the Dem's voted in favor of the war back before it began, as much as they would like to claim a sudden case of amnesia as if they never said such a thing. I don't know about any of the rest of you, but to me that is insulting to my own intelligence - that they would be so audacious as to vote in favor, then a few years later, crucify one of our most critical modern war heroes, General Petraeus, a man who has put his life on the line for our country for more years than most of us, and proceed to disgrace him via moveon.org, in a senseless smear campaign, and Hillary did one better by basically calling him a liar in front of the rest of the country. Talk about disgusting. This is the modern day democratic party though, and representation of the liberal masses to follow.

And today there are still men and women over there in harm's way, and fighting for this country, dying for this country, just so these simple-minded cry-babies can get their jollies by standing on a soapbox against a war they know nothing about, constantly working to undermine our soldiers, having no idea what it is like to walk in fear of your life every single day while you fight for someone's right to talk trash about you. How f**ked up is that?? This is why I am so vehement about this - it just fails the common sense check every step of the way, and why I can't for the life of me figure out how someone could think in such cornered, self-righteous ways.

As for the war?

I think George Washington himself said it best, years ago:

"Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession."

Thanks for listening to my Thursday morning rant guys. I feel better now.

 

[stratman]

Today's Dem party is not what it use to be, it has gone almost completely left and if unchecked I'd say socialist at best. Like so many have said, JFK today would be considered a republican, by his own party!

 

[Halon451]

Today's Dem party is not what it use to be, it has gone almost completely left and if unchecked I'd say socialist at best. Like so many have said, JFK today would be considered a republican, by his own party!

Yep - of course I wasn't around during those days, but my old man says the same exact thing.

 

[darien87]

Let us also not forget that the majority of the Dem's voted in favor of the war back before it began, as much as they would like to claim a sudden case of amnesia as if they never said such a thing.

And today there are still men and women over there in harm's way, and fighting for this country, dying for this country, just so these simple-minded cry-babies can get their jollies by standing on a soapbox against a war they know nothing about,

All right, I've kept my peace up til now, but I think you're going a little overboard here. The bottom line is, that the general public is against the war. Everybody thought it was going to be get in and get out within a couple of years, and it hasn't worked out that way. As a former soldier myself, I generally don't like speaking against the Commander In Chief, but I do think going into Iraq was wrong. I think we should have stayed in Afghanistan and concentrated the war effort there.

The politicians are doing nothing more than what is in their best interest. How do you get yourself elected? You speak out against an issue that the majority of your constituents are against. If the Democrats had started this war, the Republicans would be doing the same thing.

But you're entitled to your opinion, Hooaah.

 

[darien87]

Well like most you did not read through the site or you are in denial. Second, if it was about oil then we would be paying 25 cents a gallon now and that is clearly not the case last time I filled up. It's not about OIL What part of ISALMO FASCISTS WANT US ALL DEAD do you not understand?

So what are we to do then Jeff? It seems to me that the only way to ensure that there will be no more Islamic attacks, is to systematically eradicate EVERY single member of Islam on the face of the Earth. I understand that we need to do something to protect ourselves, but do you really believe genocide is the justifiable solution?

I'm not saying I have the answer. This has got to be one of the most convoluted situations I've ever experienced. But if you don't kill every single one of them, then you are going to be leaving someone alive somewhere that now feels justified in his hatred of the U.S. because you have proven his point by attacking his religion. Do you even think it's possible to kill every Islamic terrorist on the planet?

 

[jeffsg4mac]

So what are we to do then Jeff? It seems to me that the only way to ensure that there will be no more Islamic attacks, is to systematically eradicate EVERY single member of Islam on the face of the Earth. I understand that we need to do something to protect ourselves, but do you really believe genocide is the justifiable solution?

I'm not saying I have the answer. This has got to be one of the most convoluted situations I've ever experienced. But if you don't kill every single one of them, then you are going to be leaving someone alive somewhere that now feels justified in his hatred of the U.S. because you have proven his point by attacking his religion. Do you even think it's possible to kill every Islamic terrorist on the planet?

You don't have to kill them all, BUT you do have to utterly defeat them to such a point that it is no longer possible for or desired to them to continue wanting to engage us or make us mad.

 

[Halon451]

All right, I've kept my peace up til now, but I think you're going a little overboard here. The bottom line is, that the general public is against the war. Everybody thought it was going to be get in and get out within a couple of years, and it hasn't worked out that way. As a former soldier myself, I generally don't like speaking against the Commander In Chief, but I do think going into Iraq was wrong. I think we should have stayed in Afghanistan and concentrated the war effort there.

The politicians are doing nothing more than what is in their best interest. How do you get yourself elected? You speak out against an issue that the majority of your constituents are against. If the Democrats had started this war, the Republicans would be doing the same thing.

But you're entitled to your opinion, Hooaah.

The problem with your logic though is that the general public has been too brainwashed to know what issues are right and which are wrong. I don't agree with everything Bush has done during his term (in fact there are many things I disagree with), but I still have a recorded speech sitting at home when he declared shortly after 9/11 that this battle would not be quick, and that we would be fighting it for years. There was no guarded secrecy as to the extent this conflict would entail and that it would long, and drawn out to be effective. Top military commanders at the time agreed. Why has everyone forgotten all of a sudden? And it was both Democrats and Republicans who started this war, not just George W. Bush.

I agree that politicians do what is in their best interest - but that is part of the problem. Politicians should be doing what is in the best interest of those they serve - our country. That is one of the most fundamental principles upon which this nation was founded. They have become far too self-serving, and though that may be the reality, Darien, it doesn't make it right. The public needs better sources of information - they need to know what we're up against in this world, they need to know that 9/11 was the tip of the iceberg if we don't put ourselves on the offensive now, rather than have to go on the defensive later. These cut and run politics are going to be our undoing. Sadly, most will not realize this until it is too late.

 

[darien87]

And it was both Democrats and Republicans who started this war, not just George W. Bush.

I agree that politicians do what is in their best interest - but that is part of the problem. Politicians should be doing what is in the best interest of those they serve - our country. That is one of the most fundamental principles upon which this nation was founded. They have become far too self-serving, and though that may be the reality, Darien, it doesn't make it right.

The problem is, when was the last time a politician did what was in the best interests of the public? Our government has gotten WAY out of hand. None of them seem to believe that they are working for us.

I think the main reason that John Q. Public is so against the war, is that they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. If they could at least see the positive changes and see real progress being made, they might change their minds. Unfortunately the microwave culture we have, has made Americans used to getting what they want, now.

There should have been more concrete goals established before the war was begun. John Doe just sees us as stomping around, shooting things up with no clear objectives.

 

[Halon451]

The problem is, when was the last time a politician did what was in the best interests of the public? Our government has gotten WAY out of hand. None of them seem to believe that they are working for us.

I think the main reason that John Q. Public is so against the war, is that they don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. If they could at least see the positive changes and see real progress being made, they might change their minds. Unfortunately the microwave culture we have, has made Americans used to getting what they want, now.

There should have been more concrete goals established before the war was begun. John Doe just sees us as stomping around, shooting things up with no clear objectives.

I can't say I disagree with you for the most part. The fact of the matter is there is a clear objective for our involvement in the middle east, but what is being presented to us (as John Q. Public) is the liberal media skew that everything over there is a total clusterf**k, so it makes all the sense in the world to stand up and speak out against it. That's exactly the point I was trying to make - not to be conspiratorial or anything, but it is almost as if there are forces within our country destined to do us in from the inside out.
During other, more traditional wars, it was easy to determine the goals and objectives of each stage in the conflict (take the beach at Normandy, for example, as staging for an Allied advancement through France, western Europe and into Germany - take Berlin, eradicate Hitler). These days, part of the problem is that the rules of engagement and warfare have mutated far beyond front line battle tactics. The Coalition Commanders are having to write the rule books as they go along, but there is an objective - establish sovereignty and equilibrium in Iraq. If we were to cut and run right now, the whole area (and all of its resources) would fall to the hands of those who want every single American in the world dead, and it would surely become a huge staging ground for future attacks on American turf. But, this is not what the public is being told, or what is being portrayed. There is progress, and lots of it - General Petraeus stated this, and was subsequently slammed from all sides, and called a liar. What can you do when our own leaders are throwing the ball to the other side??

Politicians... okay - for the most part (with maybe a few shining examples) I will give you this. I think Washington needs an enema, quite frankly.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Politicians... okay - for the most part (with maybe a few shining examples) I will give you this. I think Washington needs an enema, quite frankly.

I am not going to argue with that. In fact, many of them have become traitors to this country and need to be dealt with the way traitors should be dealt with.

 

[avaserfi]

I am not going to argue with that. In fact, many of them have become traitors to this country and need to be dealt with the way traitors should be dealt with.

Can we say almost all of them? Too bad getting a discussion like this going would be considered treason on our part . It is certainly a sad time in our country as far as politics are concerned. The worst part is as it is easy to blame the politicians the people are at fault just as much by not staying properly informed .

 

[Halon451]

Can we say almost all of them? Too bad getting a discussion like this going would be considered treason on our part . It is certainly a sad time in our country as far as politics are concerned. The worst part is as it is easy to blame the politicians the people are at fault just as much by not staying properly informed .

Agreed - except that as Americans one of our fundamental liberties is the freedom of speech, so we do have the luxury of speaking out against those in charge. There are many places in the world where one could be hanged for such comments.

 

[Halon451]

I am not going to argue with that. In fact, many of them have become traitors to this country and need to be dealt with the way traitors should be dealt with.

Since it's on topic (sort of), just thought I would say your signature is great Jeff. I'm not a right-wing Conservative thinker, but I do believe Reagan was one of the greats in our Presidential history. He is sorely missed these days.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Since it's on topic (sort of), just thought I would say your signature is great Jeff. I'm not a right-wing Conservative thinker, but I do believe Reagan was one of the greats in our Presidential history. He is sorely missed these days.

Yes he was and yes he is

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Since it's on topic (sort of), just thought I would say your signature is great Jeff. I'm not a right-wing Conservative thinker, but I do believe Reagan was one of the greats in our Presidential history. He is sorely missed these days.

What???!!!
Reagan was the third-worst president in US history, right below Bush and Nixon! His so-called "trickle-down" economics caused the homeless population to increase by several orders of magnitude. It was also obvious from his actions that he already had advanced alzheimers by the time he took office, and had no clue what was going on most of the time.

 

[Halon451]

Hmmm.... welcome back Joe. I guess the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war was just a fickle little sideshow trick then, eh?

 

[Johnd]

What???!!!
Reagan was the third-worst president in US history, right below Bush and Nixon! His so-called "trickle-down" economics caused the homeless population to increase by several orders of magnitude. It was also obvious from his actions that he already had advanced alzheimers by the time he took office, and had no clue what was going on most of the time.

I don't know how old you were at the time Schmoe, but Reagan did not have advanced Alzheimers before taking office. He is credited with single-handedly "bankrupting" the Soviet Union...which is no longer a "union", thanks to Reagan and the "race". He dropped the skyrocketing inflation rate...remember Carter and the energy crisis? (since you mentioned economics). And a sorely antiquated military was revitalized. And I'm not even a registered Republican.