Using centers as overhead speakers for Dolby Atmos?

[Woopher]

Hello,

I am setting up a 7.1.4 system and would like to get opinions about what to use for the 4 overhead Atmos speakers.

The area is 14'x12' (LxW), which is part of a large living room, with the seating approximately in the middle of that area. The ceiling height is only 8 ft.

The distance between the MLP and the each planned overhead speaker location is ~6ft, at a ~45 degree angle.

I've been leaning toward installing inclined in-ceiling speakers, such as coaxial Focal 300 ICA6 or Focal 1000 ICA6:

https://www.focal.com/us/custom-commercial-integration/300-series/300-ica6

https://www.focal.com/us/custom-commercial-integration/1000-series/1000-ica6

Both models have identical dimensions, have the inclination angle of 35 degrees and nearly identical direction diagrams and frequency response charts, although the 1000 is louder than the 300: 90.5db vs. 89.5db. It is also much more expensive, $1200 vs $500. Using 4 1000s in my setup would, probably, be an overkill anyway.

At the same time, the above options still seem like an awkward compromise, as such specialty speakers intend to address a rather unique problem of firing sound sideways while remaining inconspicuous above a flat ceiling surface. No wonder that the market offerings are extremely limited in that area. Plus, the angle is still not quite right for my setup.

Another option for me to consider would be using bookshelf speakers mounted under the ceiling, such as those from Elac Debut series or something similar. That seems like a perfectly viable solution sound-wise, but with 8ft ceiling like mine those boxy contraptions would always be in the way. And, of course, rather unsightly.

The third option would be to use 4 compact centers speakers such as Definitive ProCenter 1000 mounted in a circle and pointed towards the MLP, although I have no seen any discussions about that. What do you, guys, think of that idea?

 

[j_garcia]

1dB isn't much of a difference for SPL, so unless you are looking to truly timbre match something, I would not pop for the 1000s.

The angle is not really critical either, meaning it is not necessary to aim them at the MLP. Dolby does not mention anything about aiming the speakers, only placement relative to the MLP.

5.1.4 Overhead Speaker Setup

Learn how to set up Dolby Atmos 5.1.4 overhead speakers for an immersive Dolby Atmos experience. Get professional tips and guidance for optimal speaker placement.

www.dolby.com

 

[Woopher]

1dB isn't much of a difference for SPL, so unless you are looking to truly timbre match something, I would not pop for the 1000s.

The angle is not really critical either, meaning it is not necessary to aim them at the MLP. Dolby does not mention anything about aiming the speakers, only placement relative to the MLP.

5.1.4 Overhead Speaker Setup

Learn how to set up Dolby Atmos 5.1.4 overhead speakers for an immersive Dolby Atmos experience. Get professional tips and guidance for optimal speaker placement.

www.dolby.com

That's because their diagrams are too generalized: they assume high ceiling and a large seating area. My space is tight, though. If I mount those speakers as they show, my MLP will be at the border of their dispersion cones.

List of angled in-ceiling speakers (and why you need them) for Immersive Sound formats (Atmos, Auro, DTS:X)

 

[Eppie]

@Woopher The ProCenter 1000 is a bad idea. That is an MTM design which is subject to comb filter effects off axis, and ATMOS speakers are generally off axis from the MLP. I agree that the Focal 1000 is overkill for ATMOS in a living room setting. I recently went with the Paradigm CI Pro series in a relatively small space and am quite happy. While an angled tweeter can help for the top front pair, it's generally not needed for the top middle or top rear which might be 30° off axis.

 

[j_garcia]

Speakers radiate spherically, not directly as a cone as they show there. Yes, it is a guideline, not a hard and fast rule, which is why they give a range of angles in which it will still work. When you sit in a the theater, you are not always in an ideal position but the speakers are positioned to cover a large area.

 

[Woopher]

@Woopher The ProCenter 1000 is a bad idea. That is an MTM design which is subject to comb filter effects off axis, and ATMOS speakers are generally off axis from the MLP. I agree that the Focal 1000 is overkill for ATMOS in a living room setting. I recently went with the Paradigm CI Pro series in a relatively small space and am quite happy. While an angled tweeter can help for the top front pair, it's generally not needed for the top middle or top rear which might be 30° off axis.

@Eppie Interestingly, my setup seems to be heading towards what you currently have

About the MTM - that's a concern, thank you. Although I am struggling to understand why. If I had multiple seats to cover, then yes, but I only have a single sweet spot and all 4 speakers would point directly to it - should I really care about their off axis response? I don't plan to sit anywhere else.

 

[Eppie]

@Eppie Interestingly, my setup seems to be heading towards what you currently have

About the MTM - that's a concern, thank you. Although I am struggling to understand why. If I had multiple seats to cover, then yes, but I only have a single sweet spot and all 4 speakers would point directly to it - should I really care about their off axis response? I don't plan to sit anywhere else.

Much of what we hear is reflected sound, so off-axis response matters. ATMOS speakers are not directly overhead. The exception might be an Auro 3D setup with single overhead speaker. The ATMOS speakers are supposed to be in-line front to back with the main L+R. So if you're main speakers are 10 ft apart, the ATMOS speakers will be 5 ft to either side. An MTM works best when you're directly in front of it but that won't be the case with a ceiling installation. The direction of the ceiling joists could also be an issue with a rectangular ceiling speaker.

I'm still playing with the setup as I upgraded recently but ATMOS effects are subtle. For example, a scene in an airport hangar will have echos off of the ceiling giving a sense of height. Surround effects are primarily from side surrounds and rears if you have them, so good side surrounds are important. The ATMOS speakers can get blended in to raise the height of the effect, but it's rare that a distinct sound will come from just overhead. So while you want a good full range speaker overhead, there is not much to be gained replacing an in-ceiling speaker like the 300 ICA6 with a bigger in-wall speaker.

 

[j_garcia]

Atmos is for conveying space and movement IMO, like panning overhead effects, whether side to side, or front to back, back to front, though it can be used effectively with the surrounds to create "above" sounds. The Conjuring 2 is still probably the best (and creepiest) use of this I've heard, where there's sound in the walls and ceiling and you can HEAR it moving around above.

As mentioned, it also more often just adds ambient / reflection sound to give you the sense that you are in that space on screen. It sounds like outside by adding things like vehicle sounds from farther away or wind or rain (2049, the rooftop scene). It can sound like inside by hearing the echos off the top of the room, whether a small room or a large one, like a concert venue.

Atmos to me isn't about adding discrete sound, it is adding a layer of realism.

 

[TLS Guy]

@Eppie Interestingly, my setup seems to be heading towards what you currently have

About the MTM - that's a concern, thank you. Although I am struggling to understand why. If I had multiple seats to cover, then yes, but I only have a single sweet spot and all 4 speakers would point directly to it - should I really care about their off axis response? I don't plan to sit anywhere else.

I can tell you an MTM is the last thing you would want to use as an Atmos ceiling speaker.

I keep telling you guys that the absolute best speaker you can source for an Atmos application is a FULL RANGE SINGLE CONE SPEAKER.

That has the perfect radiation pattern and is simple to install. It also saves a lot of money.

The best driver that I know for the job is the Mark Audio CHN 110.

I have used for of these drivers for four years now, and they have been driven hard without complaint. Since they are going to be crossed over, they will take a lot more than their rated 45 watt spec. I have driven four of these hard from 100 watts amps. Bullets and other objects travel round the room perfectly. It even can make you duck, because you think you will take a bullet.

This is a far better option than those costly speakers with tweeters and even mids as well thrown in front of a woofer cone.

This is the driver.

It is actually a 5 3/4" driver. It has a very robust motor system and suspension with an xmax of 8mm. That is a lot.

You can mount it without a back box, but a 0.25 back box with damping is recommended. It makes for a neat installation.

This is the FR

They are available here.

That is by far the best solution you could think of for a ceiling Atmos speaker. Anyone considering installing Atmos speaker needs to ask themselves why they are not using this driver. It is head and shoulders above all the costly and highly advertised solutions. You need to look no further. If I have not blown mine up and can assure you, that you won't either.

 

[Woopher]

So while you want a good full range speaker overhead, there is not much to be gained replacing an in-ceiling speaker like the 300 ICA6 with a bigger in-wall speaker.

That's not the point (and I didn't mention in-wall, btw). Having something on-ceiling, rather than in-ceiling, saves me a few hassles. I can freely reposition the speakers, direct them towards the MLP and find more or less optimal positions. If I install in-ceiling ones, I will be stuck with them as they are, regardless of whether the positions and the models are correct or not.

One other option is to use outdoor speakers, rather than centers, for the overheads.

 

[TLS Guy]

That's not the point (and I didn't mention in-wall, btw). Having something on-ceiling, rather than in-ceiling, saves me a few hassles. I can freely reposition the speakers, direct them towards the MLP and find more or less optimal positions. If I install in-ceiling ones, I will be stuck with them as they are, regardless of whether the positions and the models are correct or not.

One other option is to use outdoor speakers, rather than centers, for the overheads.

Walls are a bad location for Atmos top speakers. Despite some nonsense on the 'Net" the Dolby specs work very well. I do not think you should use directional speakers pointing an any direction actually. I diffuse sound field. In a domestic situation the Dolby spec. actually minimises any harmful interactions with the bed layer speakers.
I can tell that my room that follows Dolby specs works very well.

 

[ben_]

This isn't to single out the OP, or anyone really, but the specs exist for a reason. You either follow them or don't, but expecting things to perform to spec when they've been installed out of spec isn't realistic. Best case scenario is minimizing the damage of deviating from the spec, but you have to keep reasonable expectations with that.

 

[Woopher]

This isn't to single out the OP, or anyone really, but the specs exist for a reason. You either follow them or don't, but expecting things to perform to spec when they've been installed out of spec isn't realistic. Best case scenario is minimizing the damage of deviating from the spec, but you have to keep reasonable expectations with that.

To clarify, what specs are you referring to in regards to my original question?

 

[ben_]

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

I get it, we don't live in perfect rooms for this, but there are actual spec for Atmos install.

 

[TLS Guy]

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

I get it, we don't live in perfect rooms for this, but there are actual spec for Atmos install.

Yes, that is what I was referring too. I made the mistake of assuming the OP had reviewed it, so thanks for linking it. Bad mistake to assume anything, sorry.

 

[Woopher]

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

I get it, we don't live in perfect rooms for this, but there are actual spec for Atmos install.

We are veering a bit off-topic, but here is a paragraph from that very document:

If the chosen overhead speakers have a wide dispersion pattern (approximately 45 degrees from the acoustical reference axis over the audio band from 100 Hz to 10 kHz or wider), then speakers may be mounted facing directly downward. For speakers with narrower dispersion patterns, those with aimable or angled elements should be angled toward the primary listening position.

The latter is what I am going after. In my case, I am looking to cover a single seat, basically, not multiple. With a low ceiling like mine (8 ft), aiming the overhead speakers toward the MLP is a no brainer.

In addition, if you look at the official Dolby Atmos specs document for theaters, all of the overhead speakers are actually pointed towards the center of the auditorium floor.

 

[TLS Guy]

We are veering a bit off-topic, but here is a paragraph from that very document:

If the chosen overhead speakers have a wide dispersion pattern (approximately 45 degrees from the acoustical reference axis over the audio band from 100 Hz to 10 kHz or wider), then speakers may be mounted facing directly downward. For speakers with narrower dispersion patterns, those with aimable or angled elements should be angled toward the primary listening position.

The latter is what I am going after. In my case, I am looking to cover a single seat, basically, not multiple. With a low ceiling like mine (8 ft), aiming the overhead speakers toward the MLP is a no brainer.

In addition, if you look at the official Dolby Atmos specs document for theaters, all of the overhead speakers are actually pointed towards the center of the auditorium floor.

The Dolby cinema specs are significantly different from the home specs. 8' is a standard ceiling height. I happen to have 9' ceiling.

I think ceiling speakers work best with a diffuse sound field. That creates a better ambience and gives a greater sense of space. My advice is to use ceiling speakers and place them to Dolby specs. You really don't want to localization to any individual speaker.

 

[Eppie]

You would have to look at the mounting hardware for the Procenter 1000 to see if it can be aimed, but as has been mentioned, an MTM for ATMOS is the wrong type of speaker for that location. TLS Guys was confused by my in-wall speaker comment. Not the op's intention to mount ATMOS in-wall or on-wall but to use a different type of speaker other than in-ceiling and mount it on the ceiling. I thought the Procenter 1000 was an in-wall, but it's a stand alone center with the option to wall mount. Four of those on the ceiling is going to look very odd, in my opinion.

As TLS Guy mentioned, ATMOS creates a diffuse sound field. I think the op is getting too hung up on having the speakers aimed directly at the MLP. With 8 ft ceilings you should be within the 45 degree cone of the speakers which is fine for ATMOS, and that's only the fronts. The Tops/Mids or Rears will be closer. In ceiling with a thin grill gives the best aesthetic. Anything bulky hanging from the ceiling is going to be a distraction unless it's close to a side wall.

If the ability to move the speakers to another location is paramount over looks and sound quality, outdoor speakers are an option as they will include the mounting bracket, but there are not many reviews or measurements available to choose the proper model. I had a colleague use B&W outdoor speakers in his office setup and they did sound very good, but he had a wood beam ceiling to tuck them up into. Those speakers mounted on a flat ceiling would look bulky. Maybe an on-wall speaker that is not too thick could be surface mounted if the op needs the ability to move them? Something with a paintable grill or all white that would blend into the ceiling. I would still recommend in-ceiling though.

 

[j_garcia]

OP linked the speakers he is considering primarily, they are both aimable in-celling speakers. Of those two, I would go with the 300s and aim them as needed to achieve a good covering of sound. The ability to aim can benefit here if the placement isn't optimal, so I expect it will work out fine.

The second part of the question was if MTMs would be good for a ceiling speaker, to which the answer is no.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Imo 8’ is too low to use bookshelf speakers on the ceiling. It’s perfectly acceptable to do so, but it takes higher ceilings. Also, I do believe they should be aimed at the LP as much as possible. Most speakers sound better on axis and overhead speakers are no different.(the reason theaters point down is because at those heights, the dispersion angle is going to hit all the seats) It also helps with imaging. The point of Atmos is objects on 3d space, on XYZ axes, not diffused sound, however that can easily be achieved with a proper setup, and the good Atmos systems I’ve experienced including my own, do both. Also, the “specs” are part of the Dolby “guidelines” and are not gospel. There is a range of angles that are effective. I do agree to follow them as close as one can, but some rooms just don’t play nice.
I would get the 300’s as well.
Definitely do NOT use the procenters. They’re not even good speakers anyway lol.