Used Car - Destination fee?

[TLS Guy]

I apologize for the long post in advance, but read it you may learn something, and if you dont, I apologize twice...

The problem here is we are in the us, and we dont have 100mpg diesel cars available to us, and if you google that vw diesel motor you will see a lot of unhappy customers with sub 100K on them...
You are very lucky with your 6.2 if I remember correctly them were terrible engines, {i had a 6.5 that was also a junk box, replaced at 90K.} the 6.2 was naturally aspirated and got worse mpg than a large gas job {And is a smelly loud diesel}... I am very mechanically inclined, I built my own oil trucks from school bus chassis's for years until business built up enough to warrant a new truck {at $139K its not something you jump into, but before I sold that portion of the company I owned 6}. I have rebuilt more DT466 engines than I care to admit, from old rotary pump models to new digital gap models..
But anyway, the problem is diesel is 50 cents more per gallon at the pump, the parts cost more, the labor costs more, and parts are tough to get {not many sold, so not many in salvage yards, and the ones that are there all have the same problems}... Plus not every gas station sells diesel, sucks to find out when you are on E...

So, this is where people run into trouble figuring how to save money...

I own a couple HVAC businesses and I will try to explain this as well as I can with something I see all the time...

A customer calls me up and wants a high efficiency boiler... Great... I go to the house and sell them a Hi eff. boiler, but always tell them, "you are much better off with a quality standard boiler vs the high eff units in the long run", but you know what they buy, the high eff. units, 99.9% of the time.. To save money? Cant be because they cost more..... Heres why...

a nice Budurus natural draft boiler {cast Iron 120K btu wet base} costs $2900 installed and gets 86% efficiency with very small stand by losses and will last 12 years with 0 service costs, at 20 years avg, service costs are under $600, and the boilers life span with a filtered water supply is 35 years.

Now a Budurus high efficiency gb series, installed costs around $7900 and gets 95% eff., also has low stndby losses, but Will cost $1600 in service before it is 8 years old!!! And the average life span is 13 years!!!! {before service costs will warrant replacement!!!}. Lastly the parts are not stocked, they are almost all order only availability, so when you call because you have no heat on xmass eve, guess what, Ill be back the day after new years to fix it, if you are lucky and the part is in stock at the warehouse in Germany} Buderus is also German, pure coincidence..

So lets do a little of the math, in 26 years {sounds long but keep in mind most peoples mortgages are 30}, the high eff unit will cost you around $20,000 and need to be replaced again because that is 2 lifetimes!! If you have a 3000 sq ft, std insulation home you will save around $210 per year {which is 9% off of what you would spend with a std boiler}, so over 26 years you will save around $5400- still with me? $20,000-$5400=$15600, thats what the system costs you after you minus your energy savings...

Now for the standard system- at 26 years, you would have spent $3500 on the boiler and service {but lets call is $5000 for good measure}... Add that to the $5400 in extra fuel costs, you get $10400 and the boiler still has a half decade of life left in it !!!!! So that means the high eff. unit cost you an extra $5000 and needs to be replaced after 26 years!!!!!

So IMHO that is what is wrong here, people dont look at the entire picture... My friggen powerstroke diesel service trucks cost me so much in repairs its stupid, vs my chevy powered gas vans cost 1/10th that in their entire lifetime... And any mechanic can work on them, doesnt have to be a certified specialty mechanic... Plus the diesels initially cost $10K more!!!!

If you are worried about gas mileage, get a prius, I bought my wife a brand new one in 07 and besides a pair of headlights {that I blew out trying to jump start it} it is perfect still, not one service problem}, and she gets good gas milage... But for the money a brand new car like the chevy I mentioned earlier is your best bet, find a dealer, work him over to a couple thousand under cost, and walk away happy knowing in 5 years, you saved a lotmore than a diesel would have saved you...
My grand father used to say "penny smart dollar foolish" and I see it a lot, People spend $5K extra to save $2K in the long run, not smart...
I am very serious about my money, maybe that is why I am comfortable and will retire before I am 40... , I never had to do anything illegal or immoral, and started with a $12 an hour laborers job, no parents to hand me a business or pay for my education, 100% ME, just hard work, smart decisions, and a table spoon of common sense...

So anyway take my "free" advice or dont, and good luck with the new car, I am always in a good mood when Im buying a new car, to me its more fun than a vacation, because I usually have more to show for it than a few pictures and a sun burn in the shape of a pool side menu {long story, dont fall asleep on a sunny windy day in Peru, a hologram menu may fly by and stick to your back} thats more free advice for you, Im not even going to get into how I gut the sun burn on St Thomas, when I thought we were on St Johns the entire trip {in my defence they are close and share an airport}...

I rest my case.

Your 6.2 had idiot mechanics. When I got mine, it was dog, smoked and got about 13 mpg. It was clear to me that the engine was badly out of time. The dealer had no equipment to time a diesel engine. So I took it to an independent diesel mechanic with the latest laser timing equipment. We carefully timed it together. The engine was out of time. After a careful timing, and I have only timed it once, it picked up its skirts quite well, did not smoke and has consistently got 18 mpg since, over 20 mpg if you keep just below 60 mpg. There is little wrong with that engine, just the dealers. If I had not done what I did, I doubt that engine would have made 60K miles.

The 6.5 is pretty good as well, my eldest son has one with high miles. We did however make a significant mod to the electronic diesel injection assist system. There is one serious stupid design flaw that relates to that.

As to your power strokes, the smaller 6.0 engine is a well known dog and a very bad dog at that. The larger 7.3 engine properly looked after is excellent. I have personal knowledge of owners going well past 300K miles with little problems.

If it is 7.3 power strokes you are having trouble with, then you have idiots at your dealership.

As to furnaces, I'm inclined to agree, but after May 2013, it will be illegal to sell or instal an 86% efficient furnace in Minnesota.

I bet other states will follow, if they haven't already.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a diesel engine. The real problem is that they are not common in smaller vehicles in the US, and they are just not serviced well or intelligently and that leads to a cascade of problems.

In Europe diesels are known for economy and long life generally. They out number gas engines in vehicles five to one in the UK. Even going back to my childhood, I don't remember anything but diesels in all but the smallest commercial vehicles. Cars were almost all gas back then except for Merc. The London Taxis, even back then were largely diesel. We are going back to the fifties here.

 

[Grador]

Well as this thread goes further down the rabbit hole, I'll chime in with my aunt's Eclass merc experiences. It is a diesel, and the engine has been fairly reliable. More breakdowns than any other car in my extended family, but serviceable. On the other hand at some point every single feature in the cabin has stopped working. Moon roof wouldn't open, electric seats refused to move, HVAC controls stopped working.

Friend's father had a C230 supercharged petrol engine. It was in the shop constantly with engine problems.

Edit: I live in the land of the luxury car that the owner cannot afford, I have a lot of data points for reliability of many a high end car brand.

 

[TLS Guy]

This is incorrect. The market share of diesel engines for passenger vehicles is 20% in the UK, and 40% in Germany, as of 2010. The Mercedes 3.5L V6 is a worldwide engine, as is the BMW 2.5/3.0L L6, just to name two.

For the facts about the Euro market based on vehicle registrations, see Figure 4-1. Euro auto market analysis

I can't get you link to open, in fact it causes computer error. However diesel sales exceeded gas in the UK in 2010 and is rising fast to meet fuel efficiency standards, to avoid high road tax license fees.

I don't think I have seen a gas powered Merc in the UK for years now. My brother Paul has driven only Mercs for years, all diesels. He drives them like a maniac and they stand up to his abuse very well. As far as I could tell the engine I had in my Merc was not available in the UK.

I have driven several thousand miles in the UK in the last few years, mainly in the busy SE, and I can tell you the overwhelming majority of vehicles I see are diesels. I have a large family and extended family over there, so I have direct knowledge of a lot of vehicles in the family. I'm certain there is only one gas powered Vauxhall in the bunch. So that would be one out of fourteen vehicles.

I firmly believe the problem with diesels in the US is largely a dealership and mechanic issue.

 

[ImcLoud]

I rest my case.

Your 6.2 had idiot mechanics. When I got mine, it was dog, smoked and got about 13 mpg. It was clear to me that the engine was badly out of time. The dealer had no equipment to time a diesel engine. So I took it to an independent diesel mechanic with the latest laser timing equipment. We carefully timed it together. The engine was out of time. After a careful timing, and I have only timed it once, it picked up its skirts quite well, did not smoke and has consistently got 18 mpg since, over 20 mpg if you keep just below 60 mpg. There is little wrong with that engine, just the dealers. If I had not done what I did, I doubt that engine would have made 60K miles.

The 6.5 is pretty good as well, my eldest son has one with high miles. We did however make a significant mod to the electronic diesel injection assist system. There is one serious stupid design flaw that relates to that.

As to your power strokes, the smaller 6.0 engine is a well known dog and a very bad dog at that. The larger 7.3 engine properly looked after is excellent. I have personal knowledge of owners going well past 300K miles with little problems.

If it is 7.3 power strokes you are having trouble with, then you have idiots at your dealership.

As to furnaces, I'm inclined to agree, but after May 2013, it will be illegal to sell or instal an 86% efficient furnace in Minnesota.

I bet other states will follow, if they haven't already.

There is nothing inherently wrong with a diesel engine. The real problem is that they are not common in smaller vehicles in the US, and they are just not serviced well or intelligently and that leads to a cascade of problems.

In Europe diesels are known for economy and long life generally. They out number gas engines in vehicles five to one in the UK. Even going back to my childhood, I don't remember anything but diesels in all but the smallest commercial vehicles. Cars were almost all gas back then except for Merc. The London Taxis, even back then were largely diesel. We are going back to the fifties here.

You are one of the few happy 6.2l owners lol, because everyone I remeber talking to hated them, as far as the 6.5, if you look them up and try to find an engine they cost $5-10K because there are no good ones, I think I know about the stupid problem you are talking about, I had to relocate a modle that was located over the manifold and used to overheat... But the 6.5 was junk from the start... mine was breaking starters and starter bolts twice a year...
As for my 6.0's I hated them, and I still own one 7.3 that runs great {its an 02 in good shape I use to plow the yards, not even registered but it starts every time you turn the key}... But I am switching back to gas as soon as it financially makes sense, believe me... Until someone comes out with another motor like the 7.3 {which probably isnt going to happen anytime soon because of the emmision restrictions now in place} I am going to gas... I would buy all used 7.3 fords, but I need new trucks on the road, I dont let my service vehicles go older than 3 years, rite now they are all newer than 2010. battling with 6.7 diesels now... They dont like to start in the cold, where most diesels dont, but these are worse... Although my little isuzu diesels fire rite up... but the cab overs go for ever, they had a bad batch a few years back but thes new ones are great, but also $60K a piece!!!

As far as outlawing sub 90% furnaces, that is for gas fired furnaces, and I agree with that, 90+ furnaces are fine, and I cant remeber the last time I installed a sub 90... But that is a furnace, which is an ar exchanger, Im talking about hydronics, hence the word Boiler I used.. Furnaces are a total different ball game, I change a furnace out {to 90+}in 3 hours and it only costs the costomer around $3000 {furnace costs about $800 the rest is labor, about $650 per hour}... A boiler holds water and supplies heated water to baseboard, hydro coils, indirect h2o heaters, ect... I actually agree with what they are doing, while I dont agree with demanding retrofits where they make you change a perfectly good furnace because it isnt up to their eff. standards {safety stds are a different story}. But if you are buying a new furnace or domestic/potable water heater, than yes, it should be 90+, in some cases it is the same cost most cases only $200 more.... But much safer, and more efficient...

 

[TLS Guy]

You are one of the few happy 6.2l owners lol, because everyone I remeber talking to hated them, as far as the 6.5, if you look them up and try to find an engine they cost $5-10K because there are no good ones, I think I know about the stupid problem you are talking about, I had to relocate a modle that was located over the manifold and used to overheat... But the 6.5 was junk from the start... mine was breaking starters and starter bolts twice a year...
As for my 6.0's I hated them, and I still own one 7.3 that runs great {its an 02 in good shape I use to plow the yards, not even registered but it starts every time you turn the key}... But I am switching back to gas as soon as it financially makes sense, believe me... Until someone comes out with another motor like the 7.3 {which probably isnt going to happen anytime soon because of the emmision restrictions now in place} I am going to gas... I would buy all used 7.3 fords, but I need new trucks on the road, I dont let my service vehicles go older than 3 years, rite now they are all newer than 2010. battling with 6.7 diesels now... They dont like to start in the cold, where most diesels dont, but these are worse... Although my little isuzu diesels fire rite up... but the cab overs go for ever, they had a bad batch a few years back but thes new ones are great, but also $60K a piece!!!

As far as outlawing sub 90% furnaces, that is for gas fired furnaces, and I agree with that, 90+ furnaces are fine, and I cant remeber the last time I installed a sub 90... But that is a furnace, which is an ar exchanger, Im talking about hydronics, hence the word Boiler I used.. Furnaces are a total different ball game, I change a furnace out {to 90+}in 3 hours and it only costs the costomer around $3000 {furnace costs about $800 the rest is labor, about $650 per hour}... A boiler holds water and supplies heated water to baseboard, hydro coils, indirect h2o heaters, ect... I actually agree with what they are doing, while I dont agree with demanding retrofits where they make you change a perfectly good furnace because it isnt up to their eff. standards {safety stds are a different story}. But if you are buying a new furnace or domestic/potable water heater, than yes, it should be 90+, in some cases it is the same cost most cases only $200 more.... But much safer, and more efficient...

Interesting. I only have experiences with furnaces. Only pre WWII home have boilers in these parts.

I have to say that my 6.2 diesel Suburban has been the best vehicle I have ever owned. It has been a real work hose for my. A lot of its miles have been pulling heavy loads, boats tractors, large trailers through the Rockies etc.

I have to say I think their bad rap came from one simple dumb fault.

The injector is supposed to be timed by lining up two marks. The problem is one or both marks are in the wrong place. Way off! Now timing on a diesel is even more critical then on a gas engine. So if the others were like that, then there is no way those vehicles could be known for longevity. They would develop all manor of ills, which most of them I noted did.

This was a really stupid problem for GM to have allowed to occur.

 

[ImcLoud]

Interesting. I only have experiences with furnaces. Only pre WWII home have boilers in these parts.

I have to say that my 6.2 diesel Suburban has been the best vehicle I have ever owned. It has been a real work hose for my. A lot of its miles have been pulling heavy loads, boats tractors, large trailers through the Rockies etc.

I have to say I think their bad rap came from one simple dumb fault.

The injector is supposed to be timed by lining up two marks. The problem is one or both marks are in the wrong place. Way off! Now timing on a diesel is even more critical then on a gas engine. So if the others were like that, then there is no way those vehicles could be known for longevity. They would develop all manor of ills, which most of them I noted did.

This was a really stupid problem for GM to have allowed to occur.

My house is brand new, and has a boiler, it heats up water and sends the water to 4 aid harndlers that have water coils {like car radiators} inside them then the airhandler blows air through the coil and heats up the house.. 95% of the new construction I do works this way... No dry air problems like with furnaces, has heat storage vs furnaces do not {a furnace the burner has to run everytime the thermostat calls for heat, this the burner runs maybe everyth 4th time}, and they last longer since you dont have a sheet metal heatexchanger to burn out... Plus you get free hot water from the boiler all winter... since its running for heat anyway...

 

[Hocky]

The focus in buying a high mileage diesel car shouldn't just be around the engine's durabiltiy - the rest of the car is going to be falling apart regardless of the drivetrain. Especially a VW. lol

 

[TLS Guy]

My house is brand new, and has a boiler, it heats up water and sends the water to 4 aid harndlers that have water coils {like car radiators} inside them then the airhandler blows air through the coil and heats up the house.. 95% of the new construction I do works this way... No dry air problems like with furnaces, has heat storage vs furnaces do not {a furnace the burner has to run everytime the thermostat calls for heat, this the burner runs maybe everyth 4th time}, and they last longer since you dont have a sheet metal heatexchanger to burn out... Plus you get free hot water from the boiler all winter... since its running for heat anyway...

I don't think I have come across that system in this part of the world. There is quite a bit of water in floor heat, especially in basements.

Here we have ripple heat, and get cheap electric rates for heavy loads that can be switched off. When the cost of electricity gets too high they send a ripple signal down the line, which shuts off water heaters, heating systems and dryers. Then you go onto gas backup, which is propane.

Most have two stage furnaces, which have electric coils and a a gas burner, and move seamlessly from one source to the other.

I have electric base board heat and propane furnace backup. I have dual stage water heat.

In areas with natural gas like the Twin Cities metro, heating is largely natural gas.

Very few communities in the Northern half of Minnesota have natural gas service, in the southern half almost all.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I can't get you link to open, in fact it causes computer error. However diesel sales exceeded gas in the UK in 2010 and is rising fast to meet fuel efficiency standards, to avoid high road tax license fees.

I don't think I have seen a gas powered Merc in the UK for years now. My brother Paul has driven only Mercs for years, all diesels. He drives them like a maniac and they stand up to his abuse very well. As far as I could tell the engine I had in my Merc was not available in the UK.

I have driven several thousand miles in the UK in the last few years, mainly in the busy SE, and I can tell you the overwhelming majority of vehicles I see are diesels. I have a large family and extended family over there, so I have direct knowledge of a lot of vehicles in the family. I'm certain there is only one gas powered Vauxhall in the bunch. So that would be one out of fourteen vehicles.

I firmly believe the problem with diesels in the US is largely a dealership and mechanic issue.

You might consider fixing your computer. It's just a PDF and the link works fine.

Let's assume for a moment that the newspaper article you link to, which discusses one sales month, is accurate. That still makes your statement that diesels outnumber gasoline vehicles five to one in the UK look rather silly.

You are very assertive for someone who clearly doesn't have their facts straight.

 

[Adam]

 

[TLS Guy]

You might consider fixing your computer. It's just a PDF and the link works fine.

Let's assume for a moment that the newspaper article you link to, which discusses one sales month, is accurate. That still makes your statement that diesels outnumber gasoline vehicles five to one in the UK look rather silly.

You are very assertive for someone who clearly doesn't have their facts straight.

I managed to find your article from another source. The data is suspect, and biased by the number of old vehicles with limited use.

The rise in diesel consumption tells the tale. Since 2008 European refineries have had a short fall of diesel output and a surplus of gas. This problem is getting worse, and so there has been an exchange with the US that has the opposite problem. The US sends diesel to Europe and Europe sends gas to the US.

I have just been reading a study that this is going to be sustainable and the view is that more gasoline engines need to be produced versus diesel.

Just drive round the M25 and you will see quickly what the situation is on the ground.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Point acknowledged.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I managed to find your article from another source. The data is suspect, and biased by the number of old vehicles with limited use.

The rise in diesel consumption tells the tale. Since 2008 European refineries have had a short fall of diesel output and a surplus of gas. This problem is getting worse, and so there has been an exchange with the US that has the opposite problem. The US sends diesel to Europe and Europe sends gas to the US.

I have just been reading a study that this is going to be sustainable and the view is that more gasoline engines need to be produced versus diesel.

Just drive round the M25 and you will see quickly what the situation is on the ground.

I haven't seen dancing like this since the Ed Sullivan Show.

Anyway, I'm done, and our discussion is just polluting jinjuku's thread. I think we can both agree on that.

jinjuku, it is telling that no one here thinks you're getting a good deal. It is your decision to make, but I'd be wary.

 

[armaraas]

I agree with not paying the fee. Last year we had a low mileage used Traverse purchased from an auction on our behalf. The dealership that purchased/sold it to us is local here in WI, and the vehicle was coming from CA. We had an agreed upon price for the vehicle based on it's condition when it arrived. There was never any mention of fees for transporting the vehicle. That doesn't mean it wasn't factored into the price, but it was not an separate fee. So even if the vehicle your buying wasn't a local trade in, I'd still be suspect about the destination fee.

 

[TheWarrior]

NADA says $16k is the minimum for a TDI with those options. Is there any 1 year warranty or similar that they will offer? If you are unaware of things to look for, find someone who does and have them look it over, and DRIVE it.

I do agree though, the fee is BS and should be waived. Do not flinch when you tell them you will not pay a destination fee on a used car.

Diesels for the win. Yeah, sure, my buddy could short shift his Civic and get 40 mpg, but he was crawling along to do it. And a Prius can't get those numbers either unless you drive in a city!

 

[Matt34]

NADA says $16k is the minimum for a TDI with those options. Is there any 1 year warranty or similar that they will offer? If you are unaware of things to look for, find someone who does and have them look it over, and DRIVE it.

I do agree though, the fee is BS and should be waived. Do not flinch when you tell them you will not pay a destination fee on a used car.

Diesels for the win. Yeah, sure, my buddy could short shift his Civic and get 40 mpg, but he was crawling along to do it. And a Prius can't get those numbers either unless you drive in a city!

Yeah, I can now see somewhat from this posts why diesel cars don't do that great here in the states. I'm driving a little 4 cylinder diesel toyota pickup here in Afghanistan and would happily swap this for my 4.0l v6 in my Frontier back home.

 

[jinjuku]

NADA says $16k is the minimum for a TDI with those options. Is there any 1 year warranty or similar that they will offer? If you are unaware of things to look for, find someone who does and have them look it over, and DRIVE it.

I do agree though, the fee is BS and should be waived. Do not flinch when you tell them you will not pay a destination fee on a used car.

Diesels for the win. Yeah, sure, my buddy could short shift his Civic and get 40 mpg, but he was crawling along to do it. And a Prius can't get those numbers either unless you drive in a city!

It's certified used with 2 year warranty.

 

[ImcLoud]

It's certified used with 2 year warranty.

3rd party warranty? good luck... My sister went through that, "it says drive train, but that doesnt cover any electrical , and it was an electrical solenoid in the transmission that caused it to break"!!! Cost her $2200 to fix a 4 year old car with 60K miles on it...

 

[jinjuku]

3rd party warranty? good luck...

No, it's through VW's certified program

 

[TLS Guy]

No, it's through VW's certified program

I think you have a petty good deal.

In the VW, I think the diesel is a much better bet than the gas Jetta.

One caveat, though. I would ask the dealer about how familiar with diesel engines their shop staff are.

If they have sold or serviced very few, then that would make me revise my opinion.

Servicing and repairing diesel engines really requires a different skill set and instincts from service or repair of gasoline engines. I have worked on both and I'm happy switching from one to the other.

I think the big trouble with diesels in this country, apart from those lousy gas conversion engines of the 80s, is that there has never been enough market penetration to get the mechanics comfortable and familiar with them.

You live in Kentucky, I think it gets cold enough there, that you will have to be careful to winterize your fuel.

If you post back the temperature ranges encountered in the winters where you are, I can advise you precisely on what to do. This is really important if you don't want to be hitching a lift on the highway. If you don't treat your fuel correctly, then getting stranded on a cold highway is a certainty.