thinking of putting this sub together... thoughts?

[bandit]

Hello everyone,

I'm thinking about this driver purchased through parts express - Audiopulse EPD212 EPIC 12" DVC Subwoofer 2 Ohm - and installing into one of their pre-built cabinets. (they've got 1cf, 2cf, and 3cf versions)

Not sure of the amp I'd use yet - but probably somewhere around 500w.
I'd prefer to stay sealed - and if ported a simple port I can by off the shelf and adjust to the proper length.. is what I'd want. I don't have the time or tools to build a start from scratch project. I am thinking I can get quite a bit of performance for my money for this sort of project though.

I'm mostly curious about the driver and whether it would be a good choice and which size cabinet would match it best in the sealed configuration.

Thoughts?
Thanks....

 

[gmichael]

It might be tough finding an HT amp that is stable at 2 ohms. Is this for home or a car?

 

[bandit]

I think it has dual 2 ohm coils that I would connect in series for a 4 ohm load to the amp. Correct me if I am not thinking about that right... (its why I'm asking the questions ) This will be for a Home Sub, not car.

Thanks !

 

[TLS Guy]

I think it has dual 2 ohm coils that I would connect in series for a 4 ohm load to the amp. Correct me if I am not thinking about that right... (its why I'm asking the questions ) This will be for a Home Sub, not car.

Thanks !

That is really a car driver, but it will work for HT in a sealed box if you buy an equalizer.

You will need to use the 1 cu. ft. box. with the volume displaced by the driver you volume will be 0.877 cu. ft.

The F3 is 53 Hz, so you will need Eq stating at 12 db per octave at around 60 Hz. The driver has enough xmax to support Eq. After Eq you will achieve an Spl somewhere between 95 and 100 db I think. So not terribly loud or thunderous but adequate fro most purposes. I would also recommend a high pass filer kicking in around 25 Hz to prevent driver damage.

That driver is not suitable for ported application. At the prices you are talking I would recommend you put together two of them, or better still four, then you would have a pretty powerful set of subs, that would also help smooth the in room response.

Without an equalizer though it will not be much better than some bookshelves in the bass, in the HT environment. A car is a whole different equation acoustically.

Driver Properties
Name:
Type: Standard one-way driver
No. of Drivers = 1
Fs = 23 Hz
Qms = 3.9
Vas = 45.87 liters
Cms = 0.28 mm/N
Mms = 165 g
Rms = 13.73 kg/s
Xmax = 22 mm
Xmech = 33 mm
P-Dia = 252.3 mm
Sd = 500 sq.cm
P-Vd = 1.1 liters
Qes = 0.45
Re = 3.7 ohms
Z = 4 ohms
BL = 14.1 Tm
Pe = 600 watts
Qts = 0.4
no = 0.12 %
1-W SPL = 86.3 dB
2.83-V SPL = 86.27 dB
-----------------------------------------
Box Properties
Name:
Type: Closed Box
Shape: Prism, square
Vb = 0.877 cu.ft
Qtc = 0.55
QL = 20
F3 = 52.85 Hz
Fill = heavy

One last issue, I'm not sure if those prebuilt boxes will be strong enough for that driver after Eq. The internal pressure will be high. If they are not well made they will come apart at the seams. Cabinets need to strongly built and well braced.

Sealed subs on the face of it seem simpler than ported designs, but the total design of the system always ends up being more complex and costly.

 

[bandit]

Wow.. I am now thinking I won't be putting that one together !! Is there a driver <$200 that would fit the bill better for this? I don't have a problem going up to the 2 or 3cf enclosures with a different driver. Like I stated originally - I'd like to use one of these cabinets or something pre-built as time is precious to me and I don't have a lot of the tools required to build. Let me know if you have any thoughts on what would be a better combination of driver/cabinet.

Thanks !!

 

[gmichael]

I kinda like the Dayton RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm for the sound quality, but the Dayton TIT320C-4 12" Titanic Mk III Subwoofer 4 Ohm does have more power handling.

http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=487&CFID=25392236&CFTOKEN=93446984

 

[bandit]

Hi,

Any thoughts regarding the 15" versions of those drivers? Trying to look at all this pretty open minded.

Thanks !

 

[gmichael]

Hi,

Any thoughts regarding the 15" versions of those drivers? Trying to look at all this pretty open minded.

Thanks !

Sorry. I just assumed that you wanted 12" because you were suggesting one.
Yeah, the 15" are great too. I have the 15" Titanic III kit built. It's a monster! If I was starting over, I'd go with the HF though. That's just my prefference of SQ over output. Either would sound great. There is even a RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO if you want the high output without the higher price tag of the Titanic.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi,

Any thoughts regarding the 15" versions of those drivers? Trying to look at all this pretty open minded.

Thanks !

In your situation I would buy a complete kit. Those Dayton subs are sealed and have equalizers in the amps.

Sealed subs start rolling off at 12 db per octave usually around the F3 point of the driver X 2. This can be equalized, but the equalization limits total power response, because of the amp power used for the Eq and the greatly increased excursion of the driver.

Ported subs are larger and round tube ports are not really big enough, and cause noise and port compression. So most decent ported subs are DIY creations with large slot vents.

You can see some of those Dayton drivers in this assortment of subs on my web page. If you look at the graphs you will begin to see the pros and cons of sealed versus ported. Not all drivers can be either. Some are sealed only, some ported only and some can tolerate both types of loading.

In general ported subs will be larger and have greater spl in the last octave as well as requiring significantly less amp power. The bass is however resonant and you can not achieve the tight non resonant bass alignments that some sealed subs can give and TLs if properly designed.

I think the weakest feature of the Dayton kits is the cabinets. Bracing like I see in those cabinets is minimally effective.

 

[bandit]

Thanks for all of your thoughts and suggestions... I think I've avoided a mistake.

Of course all these answers lead to more questions... Such as, are there other cabinet makers to look at that may have better bracing etc?

I'd like to come out of this with a strong sub - that performs amongst the best within reason and sanity.. . I had suggested $200 for the driver but there is some flexiblity on this cost. I'd like the whole project to run $700 to $800 (or close) with driver, cabinet, amp, and maybe something like the $100 sub EQ from Elemental designs if needed. I'm not opposed to one of the Behringer's for amplification or something similar so long as it is quiet without a fan running full tilt all the time. (amp doesn't need to be in sub cabinet).. The room it is going into is 14'x14' and is a dedicated theater.

Maybe I'm wanting too much for too little? In any case - I'm pretty sure I'm in the right place to find out. I've seen mention that DIY is the way to go for best performance, I just want to cheat a bit on the cabinet..

Bandit

 

[bandit]

ps... TLS - that is quite the amount of homework you've done on this subject on your assorment... You must have been at this for awhile.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for all of your thoughts and suggestions... I think I've avoided a mistake.

Of course all these answers lead to more questions... Such as, are there other cabinet makers to look at that may have better bracing etc?

I'd like to come out of this with a strong sub - that performs amongst the best within reason and sanity.. . I had suggested $200 for the driver but there is some flexiblity on this cost. I'd like the whole project to run $700 to $800 (or close) with driver, cabinet, amp, and maybe something like the $100 sub EQ from Elemental designs if needed. I'm not opposed to one of the Behringer's for amplification or something similar so long as it is quiet without a fan running full tilt all the time. (amp doesn't need to be in sub cabinet).. The room it is going into is 14'x14' and is a dedicated theater.

Maybe I'm wanting too much for too little? In any case - I'm pretty sure I'm in the right place to find out. I've seen mention that DIY is the way to go for best performance, I just want to cheat a bit on the cabinet..

Bandit

I sense there is a gap between expectation and budget, unless you are prepared to go total DIY. The enclosure really is as important as the driver and both have to be aligned with each other. Those Dayton Subs are a total package and will be better than other gear at the same price, but it would be misleading to think they are the apogee. Having said that a well built custom box with a number of those drivers can produce an impressive sub.

There is a lot of workmanship in a good sub enclosure, and it has to be paid for with cash or sweat equity.

 

[lsiberian]

Hello everyone,

I'm thinking about this driver purchased through parts express - Audiopulse EPD212 EPIC 12" DVC Subwoofer 2 Ohm - and installing into one of their pre-built cabinets. (they've got 1cf, 2cf, and 3cf versions)

Not sure of the amp I'd use yet - but probably somewhere around 500w.
I'd prefer to stay sealed - and if ported a simple port I can by off the shelf and adjust to the proper length.. is what I'd want. I don't have the time or tools to build a start from scratch project. I am thinking I can get quite a bit of performance for my money for this sort of project though.

I'm mostly curious about the driver and whether it would be a good choice and which size cabinet would match it best in the sealed configuration.

Thoughts?
Thanks....

This is an excellent project that will net fantastic results. This is a TC Sounds built driver that is a very nice deal.

I suggest a 1 cuft box. EQ is nice, but not necessary to have nice bass. I don't even use an EQ and my sealed sub is still very powerful.

 

[annunaki]

It is relatively easy for you to greatly improve the structural integrity of the Dayton sub enclosures using a few strips of mdf and some PL construction adhesive. Be sure to allow enough time for the adhesive to cure.

Add some 1" x 3/4" strips in the corners cut to length. Then add some 1" x 3/4" ribs across on the bottom & top of the enclosure. This will add some structural rigidity.

The Reference series drivers are very nice, but do best in vented enclosures. Sealed would be an option as well, however the TC sounds units do better there to a degree.

A 15" reference series in the 3 ft^ enclosure would work well.

Another great option in a 3.0ft^3 enclosure is the Acoustic Elegance AV-12X with dual 15" Passive radiators (PR15-1400). This will allow output over 108db at 19hz with just 500 watts rms. This is a very linear driver as well. This would be a stellar option and with a BASH plate amplifier approximately the same price as a Dayton 12" Titanic Kit.

 

[bandit]

Hello again,

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

I lean towards Annuki's last suggestion.. I took a look at the Acoustic Elegance site and am wondering what the differnence between the AV-12X and the AV-12H drivers are? I'm assuming the AV12-X would be the prefered driver in this setup but just want to confirm.

I'm debating options for the 3cf cabinet - I do know a cabinet maker in town that may be able to put together something for me - we'll see. Would you recommend 500w bash plate amp from parts express - or are there other sources I should consider?

Bandit.

 

[bandit]

Annunaki - sorry about the spelling in the last post. I missed pretty bad.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello again,

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

I lean towards Annuki's last suggestion.. I took a look at the Acoustic Elegance site and am wondering what the differnence between the AV-12X and the AV-12H drivers are? I'm assuming the AV12-X would be the prefered driver in this setup but just want to confirm.

I'm debating options for the 3cf cabinet - I do know a cabinet maker in town that may be able to put together something for me - we'll see. Would you recommend 500w bash plate amp from parts express - or are there other sources I should consider?

Bandit.

Annunaki is your man, he knows subs and has built a lot more than I have. In fact in my main system I don't even use one, at least in the conventional sense, for what I believe are good reasons. That does not mean I can't threaten destruction of the room though.

As far as amps I would avoid those class D plate amps like the Bash, if I were you. I would power it with a pro amp like a Yamaha or something of that nature.

 

[annunaki]

The BASH plate amps work pretty well if you want a full standalone, powered sub. Separate amplifiers are a better choice in my opinion but everyone has different feelings I guess. I am using one with my brother's 15" vented setup and it has been going strong for quite some time now.

The AV-12X is the sub you want if doing passive radiators. The 12H works better for actual vented applications or sealed. I cannot remember which right now.

Another option for amplifier would be the Behringer EP2000. This would bump your output at 19hz (assuming you can keep it around 1000 rms since it will do 1500) to 113db based upon modeling due to power increases. In room you can expect even more!!

In any case, if you have a cabinet maker willing to work with you, that would be my suggestion. Small on size, highly linear, and capable of very high output down into the teens.

 

[bandit]

Maybe I am the blindest guy.. not sure. But I just noticed in AE's website that they do some cabinet work as well. Came across this in their forums. They have one designed with the setup you mentioned. 12" and two 15" PR's. They have a kit price also it looks like and sale that ended 4/15.
Of course no amp.. so looks like if I go this route I may get a bit past my budget.

Anyhow - In there kit they mention 15" passive radiatiors - but it was a slightly different part #... that I don't see in there products. It was something like PR15-1500 vs. 1400. They must have changed the lineup slightly. The cabinet was 2.8 cubic feet.. May be the way to go. I thought the cabinets were nicely done. Thanks or the tip on the driver - I didn't know what the difference was.

You can get some real good deals on some of the amps as you mention. I'm a bit fussy about fan noise. Doesn't look like most of them can be operated in bridge mode at 4 ohms which may be an issue if used in bridge mode.

I see that the driver can be purchased with dual 2 ohm vc's or dual 4 ohm vc's. Any advantage one way or the other? Dual 4 would allow a series connection of 8 ohms where the options are greater for amps if trying to operate them in bridged mode. I'm not sure if this (voice coil selection) effects the drivers performance though.

Bandit.

 

[annunaki]

The VC configuration you choose shoul be for the amplifier you have decided on. The Behringer amplifiers will run mono in a 4 ohm nominal load with no issues.

I run my Ep2500 (nearly identical to the EP4000) into a 3 ohm nominal load (12W7) with no issues.

A quiet fan "swap" is about $8.00 for and is relatively easy to do.