Thai concrete house...speaker advise please

[ski2xblack]

Ya know it's pretty strange that I watched the same videos last night as well. Good info on acoustics and side wall reflections, which I don't have.

No need for a frown due to less room interaction. Like I said up-thread, your room and the resulting orientation of speakers to primary listening position will really let you swim into the mix. The liveliness of the room will add a slight reverb/wetness to everything, but the distances involved (from speaker to reflective boundaries to your ears) will result in delay and attenuation, so it's effects will be manageable. The image created in your mind will be dominated primarily by cues from the source, not the secondary effects of your room. So clutter up the place with those room dividers, houseplants, and anything else that will diffuse the sound.

DD has provided excellent feedback, particularly helpful with the similarity of your rooms. He's right, bass traps in your room are probably futile, although they do wonders in small rooms. Your room will eat bass. It will be the hardest thing to get right, that's for sure.

What are you down to, the Denon/JBL package deal? thumbs up Subs?

 

[DD66000]

No need for a frown due to less room interaction. Like I said up-thread, your room and the resulting orientation of speakers to primary listening position will really let you swim into the mix. The liveliness of the room will add a slight reverb/wetness to everything, but the distances involved (from speaker to reflective boundaries to your ears) will result in delay and attenuation, so it's effects will be manageable. The image created in your mind will be dominated primarily by cues from the source, not the secondary effects of your room. So clutter up the place with those room dividers, houseplants, and anything else that will diffuse the sound.

DD has provided excellent feedback, particularly helpful with the similarity of your rooms. He's right, bass traps in your room are probably futile, although they do wonders in small rooms. Your room will eat bass. It will be the hardest thing to get right, that's for sure.

What are you down to, the Denon/JBL package deal? thumbs up Subs?

I would disagree about bass traps, I've never used them in any size room. And as Gene mentioned, they are not needed.
That room they showed with every kind of panel imaginable, would only benefit the company who sold them.
There is certainly such a thing as making a room too dead.

But the wider the room, the wider the soundstage..
But then the bass suffers...when I had that 27ft wide room, huge soundstage, but the two 500w/15" subs output was not as noticeable as in this room, which is more confined.

 

[Bahtman]

DD has provided excellent feedback, particularly helpful with the similarity of your rooms. He's right, bass traps in your room are probably futile, although they do wonders in small rooms. Your room will eat bass. It will be the hardest thing to get right, that's for sure.

What are you down to, the Denon/JBL package deal? thumbs up Subs?

Yea, the JBL's are on the short list as well and the KEF's Q series. They've got a full range of towers like the JBL's with good specs.
I found a local shop here that's pushing the Pioneer SC LX series of AVR's at a good price, as well as the PSB line of speakers.
I've just started looking into the PSB's specs and pricing.

All said and done I'll probably get a 7.2 with pre amps, use towers for fronts, surrounds and rears and skip the front highs (for now). Properly set up, I won't miss what I've never heard before.

I've got wiring in place under the tile for 2 subs, left and right by the surrounds, and of course can put one at the front soundstage.
I've seen systems using 3-4 subs as well but if I wanted one in the back, I'd have to extend one of the highs wire and run it to the rear.

I appreciate both you and DD hanging here with me and all the advice given for the proper setup and recommendations.

I don't look forward to tweaking the gear once I get it set up if it's taken this long for just the selection/purchase process.
I guess it's kinda like a labor of love.

 

[DD66000]

If you audition both JBL and PSB, I think you'll find they quite similar in how they sound. The reason being Dr Floyd Toole and Sean Olive worked at CNR (Canadian National Research Council) before moving on to Harman's Northridge Engineering division.
Floyd has since retired and wrote thee book on audio reproduction. You can also search for the Harman white papers...plenty of info as well.
I've always thought of the Canadian brands I have auditioned over the years, how much they sound like Harman brands.

Putting one sub up front between the L/R is usually a good thing.
I personally do not like corner loading...and being you have no corners where the system will be, not a concern. And using two~four subs in that size room is going to be a given.

 

[Bahtman]

I read some reviews of the "available" PSB's here, specifically the X2T and was quite impressed. In fact all the reviews noted glowing performances even compared to much higher priced models.

Oddly enough the store stocking them here has prices about $500.00 less per pair compared to Crutchfield and others.
I'd been in that store prior and he was actually at my house prior to completion looking around.. Quite friendly indeed and if I buy from him, he offered a free setup. "I am professional". Of course everyone here is a professional at everything........"saving face" and all that.

I downloaded some FLAC files and will take them with some of my tunes there for a test, but his room is nowhere the size of mine, with acoustic panels everywhere, which he sells as well.

I'm more keen on using the eq. program included with the AVR.

As mentioned prior, he's also stocking the Pioneer SC LX series AVR's and when I asked about warranty he said if something ever happened, he'd bring me a new one and ship the other off for repairs. Something I'd not be able to do if I buy from BKK.

More to come

 

[DD66000]

As I said before, go easy on the panels..putting panels on the wall behind the speakers is what you want to do, as that will improve the clarity. By eliminating the sound bouncing off that wall back into the listening area.
I repositioned my panels, 3 rows(60x80" area) on the right wall/window.
And put back only 2 rows, alternating the 1", 2" thick.
The remaining 1" panels I taped below the front window behind the LCRs and put the last 3 on the sill (I never open those drapes)
I was surprised at the increased clarity...my thoughts had been, being my LCRs are 4 ft out from that wall that the reflections did not matter. Well, they did matter, and now they are gone.

Of coarse, you don't have any side walls to contend with.
Rugs in between the LCRs/seats will be your biggest improvement.

As for the autoEQ, use it to see how you like it...most likely good for movies, music might be a whole other thing.
I just bought an usb 7.1 sound card, to replace my stereo DAC.
So when that shows up and I get the proper mic, I will upgrade my Dirac stereo Suite to 8 channel suite. I do prefer the Dirac to the HK autoEQ.

 

[Bahtman]

I have no plans for any type of acoustic treatments yet. Bryan Pape @ GIK and I have been chatting and his main concern is the wall to the R of the MLP and the curtains being a high frequency absorber, nothing for the mids and lows and asked me if I could use some removable panels there when doing some serious listening. I'll wait and see what his suggestions are.

BTW, would front ported mains (vs. rear ported) need to me moved a few feet from the back wall as well?
I can understand moving rear ported speakers out and the need for wall panels behind them, but what about front ported?

Still running a cost sheet on large towers up front, smaller ones for surrounds and rears. JBL's, PSB's and KEF's and continue to try and evaluate the need for multiple subs, which I know will be needed. Do you have any input on the number or placement?

I'm prewired at the surrounds location for two, front stage is a given and if needed I can run one at the rear.

Enjoy your day.

 

[Bahtman]

I just bought an usb 7.1 sound card, to replace my stereo DAC.
So when that shows up and I get the proper mic, I will upgrade my Dirac stereo Suite to 8 channel suite. I do prefer the Dirac to the HK autoEQ.

Ok, now you've get me off on another tangent here. What will an external usb sound card do to help you eq. your speakers. I never knew they existed until 5 minutes ago and did a search and a bit of reading.

How will you use it and connected to where?? Give me a bit of education here.

Thanks

 

[DD66000]

BTW, would front ported mains (vs. rear ported) need to me moved a few feet from the back wall as well?
I can understand moving rear ported speakers out and the need for wall panels behind them, but what about front ported?

Still running a cost sheet on large towers up front, smaller ones for surrounds and rears. JBL's, PSB's and KEF's and continue to try and evaluate the need for multiple subs, which I know will be needed. Do you have any input on the number or placement?

I'm prewired at the surrounds location for two, front stage is a given and if needed I can run one at the rear.

Enjoy your day.

If you really want the best possible soundstage for both Stereo and MC you need to bring the speakers forward, no matter which type you choose.
As for subs, one or two need to go up front.
Being that room is not typical, the only way to tell what other locations are best is doing a crawl test with a SPL meter, with one sub at the seat position. The locations producing the highest readings are the locations the subs need to go.
Those locations could be (not probable) at the L/R main locations.
The room I built in '97 was such a room...so I co-located the subs with the L/R.

 

[DD66000]

Ok, now you've get me off on another tangent here. What will an external usb sound card do to help you eq. your speakers. I never knew they existed until 5 minutes ago and did a search and a bit of reading.

How will you use it and connected to where?? Give me a bit of education here.

Thanks

My Mac is only stereo out, which is why I downloaded the Dirac Stereo Room Correction Suite.
By replacing the stereo usb DAC with a 7.1 sound card/DAC will then allow me to upgrade the Dirac to the Full 8 channel Suite.
That will eq all the channels. So I'll stream movies via the Mac with the HK autoEQ turned off. Also, I'll start using the Mac DVD player so the sound goes through the Dirac...no such luck for the Bluy Ray player.
I bought the Diamond XS71HDU SC/DAC...very hard to come by, at least in the US...all online sources that sell them are out of stock.
They only came out a year ago (May 2014). None on Japan Yahoo either. Even Diamond was out of stock.
I managed to find one on ebay...five people were "watching" that auction, with no bids, as if there were plenty of others to be had.
I jumped right in there with the "buy it now" option.

MiniDSP in Hong Kong have stand alone units with Dirac in them, but they do not work with Mac and at $999, puts it way over Ecuador's 4x4 rule ($400/4kg) anyway. Go over those limits the tax/fee is huge.

 

[Bahtman]

As for subs, one or two need to go up front.
Being that room is not typical, the only way to tell what other locations are best is doing a crawl test with a SPL meter, with one sub at the seat position. The locations producing the highest readings are the locations the subs need to go.
Those locations could be (not probable) at the L/R main locations.

With the sub at the MLP pointed to the front, I would assume that the areas with the highest reading would be in the front more than anywhere else. Am I missing something here?

Although the Velodyne is not rated up there near the top, they are available here where I live.
Would their included on-board eq. system using the mic at the mlp conflict with the eq. from the avr?
What would be the order of setup be if I used such a sub?

 

[DD66000]

With the sub at the MLP pointed to the front, I would assume that the areas with the highest reading would be in the front more than anywhere else. Am I missing something here?

Although the Velodyne is not rated up there near the top, they are available here where I live.
Would their included on-board eq. system using the mic at the mlp conflict with the eq. from the avr?
What would be the order of setup be if I used such a sub?

Bass frequencies are omni directional, makes no difference which way it faces. But the reasons I said at least one sub up front is to blend in with the mains and that is your only wall...boundary gain.

In an enclosed rectangle room, the best places for multi subs are at the mid-points of those walls. Even in this somewhat open room, I have the front sub at the mid-point of the front wall and the other sub at the mid-point of the long right wall.
But I would not place the sub in that LF corner as you have it shown.
Just too much boundary gain, and possible boomy bass.
And just too far away from the mains.

My subs don't have eq, so I am not sure...but the Dirac handles the FR all the way to 25 hz. and the HK eq handles bass. But I am not using them at the same time.
But my original subs had built-in eq (non variable) and it worked with avr eq.

See, all these unanswered questions are taken care of by Dirac as it flattens the FR all the way down....you see the before FR (at the seat) then the filter is applied and you see the result, its all good.
Its just a matter of then setting the bass HP/LP filters to what sounds best for the sub XO. Or even having the XO set first, is how I did it.
And you can have up to 4 different FR curves.

 

[Bahtman]

OK, well a I spent a few days in BKK listening to speakers.
First up JBLS's 580's. Sounded good in the small, yet non-corrected room. They had no center and mis-matched surrounds, but TIT (this is Thailand). Guess they were just moving into the new part of the showroom and not completely set up yet.
Off to shop #2 which deals mainly in KEF's w/ Sherwood only AVR's. The Q-900's sounded good and they put a proposal together for me consisting of the Q900 mains, Q600 center, Q800DS (bi-pole) surrounds and a Q400b sub.
#3. Dealt in PSB's, Velodyne subs and Denon AVR's. They proposed Imagine T2 mains, Imagine C center, Imagine S (bi-pole) surrounds and 10" sub. I really liked the sound and look of these speakers, but I wanted to have a look at the final shop that carried just about everything.
#4. This was the only place that had treated rooms and what a difference. The past shops had been concrete floors and walls (like mine). They had a set of Focal Aria 948 set up with the Denon and they blew me away. They swapped out the 948's for the 936's and I couldn't tell the difference. They had a Martin Logan Dynamo 1500 in the mix but no surrounds set up, even though it was a larger room then the others.
They put a package together, including a 6 mo. old ML sub, 2 936 mains, SR 900 (again bi-pole) surrounds the CC900 center and the Denon AVR.

Then they started pushing the wiring.....OMG. Audioquest HDMI Carbon $190.00, and Chocolate at $120.00 with a sub cable at $85.00 and mains cables at $372.00. Almost $800.00 in cables. What a joke..

I saved this shop until last due to the amount of gear carried and they do have the best prices in town. I'd already listened to the JBL's, KEF's and PSB's so no need to hear them again. But the Focal's rocked.

I'll buy something from them in the future, but no decision yet.

Odd how ALL shops recommended bi-pole surrounds where all I've read is monopole's work better.

I mentioned the ML sub on another site and they said a enclosed would struggle with 6000 ft./3.

Hell, I've got 12000 ft./3.

 

[DD66000]

Trying to compare different speakers in different rooms, and all concrete, at that is not providing a good comparison. And of coarse, the room that was treated will sound better using any/all of the brands you did audition.
And from personal experience, with a concrete room, adding Dirac will greatly improve the sound w/o having to go overboard of wall treatments.

In the case of the 580s, if they had no center/surrounds then they would only be good for a stereo setup.

Forget the expensive cables...complete waste of cash. And as I said b4, subs, subs, subs...in that room!
Bipole speakers were developed back in the days of DPL with its mono surround channel.
With DTS discrete 5.1~7.1 or DD bipole can be used, but not really needed.
With the exception of my mains, I have identical 3-way monopole speakers all around in a 7.1 setup.

 

[Bahtman]

Trying to compare different speakers in different rooms, and all concrete, at that is not providing a good comparison. And of coarse, the room that was treated will sound better using any/all of the brands you did audition.
And from personal experience, with a concrete room, adding Dirac will greatly improve the sound w/o having to go overboard of wall treatments.

In the case of the 580s, if they had no center/surrounds then they would only be good for a stereo setup.

Forget the expensive cables...complete waste of cash. And as I said b4, subs, subs, subs...in that room!
Bipole speakers were developed back in the days of DPL with its mono surround channel.
With DTS discrete 5.1~7.1 or DD bipole can be used, but not really needed.
With the exception of my mains, I have identical 3-way monopole speakers all around in a 7.1 setup.

Agreed about the high end snake oil cables, but it surprised me when he was the only one to bring it up.
Also agree about the room characters complimenting their speakers.

About Dirac:
There's a great thread here I was reading before hitting a link to the Oppo 103 and it's use there.
But

Details of the DDRC-88A

Again this is an external box solution for:

1. Those 1. Those who have external amps to drive speakers; or

2. Those who have active speakers.

If you have a receiver with internal amps, sorry it's not going to help much.

Multi-channel amps that can be used with DDRC-88A………………

Based on what I’ve been reading in the last 2 hours, the chain I’d need would be AVR, drac, and ext. Amp.

So adding another component (or 2) up's the initial investment, or am I reading this wrong. Please excuse my ignorance as I'm not at all familiar with this type of eq.

 

[DD66000]

Depends on what you use for a source.
So although you can go the external box route for Dirac, which will then provide room correction for every source, you can just download the software to your computer, if that is what you use for a source, at least most of the time.

I do have LPs, DVD-A/SACD, but the majority of the time I am using my MacBook Pro as the source...96/24 downloads.

I went to the Dirac website and downloaded their Stereo Suite to the MacBook. I only bought the stereo suite as the Mac will only output stereo. But when I use the Mac DVD, then the soundtrack is also running through the Dirac.

So although the Dirac Stereo is only really for the L/R/subs that FR is applied to all channels the HK AVR converts to L7 7 channel. May not be as good as the 8 channel suite, but still an improvement over using the HK EZset EQ, which I have turned off.

 

[Bahtman]

Just wanted to say thanks to you and SKi for the assist and give you an update. I ended up with a Marantz SR7009 9.2 with Focal 936 mains their bigger center and 906 surrounds. Mainly due to the auditioning and discounted price.
Also found a rug supplier in BKK (had 4 pieces glued up to be 4.6m x 3.2m) and used an outdoor type mat as underlayment.
Now in search for subs. Posted a new thread here asking for advice and hope you'll have a look.

Thanks for all your time.