Thai concrete house...speaker advise please

[Bahtman]

Back in the day, I had a "new" Yamaha RX-V1, 2 Pioneer CS-88a speakers from Nam in1969 for fronts and rears, existing Bose 301's I used as surrounds (mounted as highs) 2 decent subs and 2 centers in a fully carpeted 18 x 36 room. There were no MultEQ, YPAO or MCACC room correction features then but to me and friends, they sounded bad a$$.

That was then, this is now.

My current situation puts me in Thailand with a room with an odd shape as I didn't care to think ahead for home theater but more for interior looks.

Houses here are made of block walls with cement rendering, tile over concrete floors and drywall attached to hanging steel strips. Given the construction methods here, I'm already in an acoustical nightmare.

I've pre-wired as best I thought at the time with 2 locations for subs and 2 surrounds under the floor to locations shown .Front highs and rears were run inside the accessible soffit.

Components are hard to come by here at any reasonably price due to import taxes, but I'm off to the states in March, and may pick one up an AVR there to save a few $$....but I see that it's recommended to pick up the speakers first.

So I turn to the expert's here for some recommendations on, first of all, speaker selection, given the parameters I have.

I can buy most speaker brands, at a premium price of course and expect to spend 3 to 4k on the lot, more if needed.

Pricing here…. Klipsch RF-42II $700.00 RF-62 II $1250.00 RF-82 $1550.00


Monitor Audio RS 5 $1100.00 RX 8 $1750.00 Polk Audio RTi A5 $790.00 A7’s $1100.00

KEFC-5 $800.00 C-7 and Q500’s at about $1100

Also available are Tannoy, JBL, Paradigm and Yamaha, PSB and a few others.


Any suggestions, constructive criticism and recommendations are highly sought after.

Thanks so much in advance.

Just so you know....there's no such thing as "auditioning" here and the only dealers setup in town is pretty much acoustically perfect as they have the same type of construction, and forget about any return policy unless it’s dead.

 

[lsiberian]

No need to go 7.2 5.2 is plenty.

You really can't go wrong with KEF or Klipsch. If you like horns Klipsch is a great choice if you don't like horns then KEF is obviously the better choice.

 

[Bahtman]

Thanks.

Actually I was looking at picking up a 9.1 (movies) and the Pioneer LX series of AVR's here due to their current promotion and the release of the new LX87, adding speakers over 5.1 as the budget allows.

So there is an obvious difference in the tonal qualities of these two choices?

I'm concerned about the acoustical effects with ANY speaker choice given the characteristics of the construction.

 

[nwhitta]

Why not buy speakers made in Thailand? The nOrh brand makes fabulous looking and sounding marble speakers.

 

[Bahtman]

New to me as I've never heard of them and have never seem them displayed or sold locally.
Thanks, I'll look into them.

 

[ski2xblack]

You may want to search the forum for posts pertaining to the norh. I seem to recall Dennis Murphy (a very trustworthy source IMO) saying they were hit and miss, and can't recall the models he considered on the hit side. Very cool looking speakers.

Regarding your room's construction and it's effects, the distance from the couch/main listening spot to the walls is in your favor. That should keep reflections delayed and diminished enough to not be too offensive. Also the lack of near side walls means no hard first reflections to worry about. You essentially have a near-field rig in a larger space. Filling it with quality bass will be the biggest hurdle.

I'll throw out a recommendation for Hsu. They've gussied up the HB-1 speakers, in both performance and cosmetics. Their subs are worthy, and the package deals are really good values.

 

[Bahtman]

I really appreciate the info you gave me about the room etc.
Yea there are no side walls to worry about and high ceilings should help as well.
There are also free standing screens/room dividers here that I can play with.
The wall behind the sofa can be addressed as well if needed.
I've seen a few acoustical panels in the only shop in town, many on the 9' ceiling and near the speakers on the side and rear walls. Certainly a lot smaller room than mine.
Your words are encouraging and give me hope.

I have limited knowledge about acoustics but know a bit about first reflections and what your saying make sense.

Thanks again for the input, now I just have to out a system together.

One thought though, I hear about speakers sounding "bright". Would my speaker selection have any impact on the sound received, relative to the room characteristics? Would one be better than another, tonal wise?

 

[Bahtman]

I've been reading about norh speakers made here in Thailand and have tried to initiate contact with them.
It would certainly save me shipping costs. I'll be passing thru BKK on the way back to the states next month and will make an effort to have a look.

I've also been reading about Hsu subs, but the issue here is availability.

Thanks

 

[ski2xblack]

Hey, at least you're not in Vietnam. I hear you have to pay ridiculous bribes to get anything imported there.

One thought though, I hear about speakers sounding "bright". Would my speaker selection have any impact on the sound received, relative to the room characteristics? Would one be better than another, tonal wise?

Let's think about this using speakers listed in your first post as examples. I don't have measurements on either, but it's pretty easy to conceptually compare the Klipsch RF-42 with it's horn loaded tweet to the Monitor Audio RS-5 with it's flush mounted tweet. The Klipsch will concentrate it's high frequency energy into a narrower pattern where the MA will have wider dispersion. In your particular case, not having side walls to deal with, it won't make a heck of a lot of difference. In a smaller room, however, it would.

I recall a certain chapter in Toole's book discussing how listeners tend to cluster into separate camps when it comes to the things they value in terms of soundstage/image. Many seem to prefer some degree of envelopment, achieved by speakers with wide (but smooth) off axis performance with significant involvement of local acoustics. Others preferred a more clearly delineated and precise image, achieved via near field listening and other methods to absolutely minimize the room's influence. One of the other methods is careful setup of controlled directivity speakers to ensure uniform coverage for the listening area (this is more of a theater or large venue way to think of things, not what most home audio buffs subscribe to). If you look at it like this, you should be able to make sense of how speakers with different polar response will interact with the local environment.

Tonal response is the sort of thing that can be eq'd for. I like a nice warm house curve type response myself.

Your near-field-ish/less-room direct response, thanks to your room layout, will result in a rig that will allow you to really swim into the mix. The room is lively and you will likely hear it, so you will certainly benefit from cluttering up the place, using acoustic panels, etc. You seem to have a better handle on acoustics than you give yourself credit for.

 

[DD66000]

I really appreciate the info you gave me about the room etc.
Yea there are no side walls to worry about and high ceilings should help as well.
There are also free standing screens/room dividers here that I can play with.
The wall behind the sofa can be addressed as well if needed.
I've seen a few acoustical panels in the only shop in town, many on the 9' ceiling and near the speakers on the side and rear walls. Certainly a lot smaller room than mine.
Your words are encouraging and give me hope.

I have limited knowledge about acoustics but know a bit about first reflections and what your saying make sense.

Thanks again for the input, now I just have to out a system together.

One thought though, I hear about speakers sounding "bright". Would my speaker selection have any impact on the sound received, relative to the room characteristics? Would one be better than another, tonal wise?

I also live in an all concrete house...The most important thing to do, cover horizontal surfaces...floors, between the LCRs and the seating.
In my room, I have one 8ft diameter rug, I bought 5 years ago, now using as a carpet pad, with 4 rectangular, thick rugs on top. That gives me a covered area of 11 ft L~R x 8 ft from just behind the LCRs to the front edges of the seating. That makes all the difference between too live room and one closer to neutral.
Also, I find that speakers that have waveguides (in a horizontal orientation) to be more problematic than speakers w/o WGs, in concrete rooms. (I do have a wall on the right). So my main L/R speakers do not have them.

One speaker suggestion would be JBL Studio 200 series, which are available in Thailand, but not where I live.
I think their waveguide shape might be an improvement for a concrete room, compared to standard waveguides.

 

[Bahtman]

Hey Ski,

Bribes/corruption is common place in SE Asia and most other countries but under a different guise. PAC money anyone?

It can work for and against you. Get stopped for no helmet or their claim you ran a red, pay the onsite fine of just over $6.00 or slide them a 6-pac if you've got one handy. Either way there is no "points" system here. If you accept and pay the onsite ticket some are good for 3-5 days of re-use.

Ok, back to business.

I’ve little concern now about what I anticipated to be an acoustical nightmare. I seem to have developed a tendency to be rather anal in my old age……..
(MerriamWebster: extremely or overly neat, careful, or precise… not biology : of, relating to, or located near the anus).

I to, like a nice warm house "curve type response" and don't plan on additional seating positions. Me and the Ms. and an occasional friend or three. Thai's would rather sit on the floor anyway. The Ms. likes her music but I'm into sound enveloping movies and VCD's if in the mood and don't care for the "bright" sound if I understand the term correctly.

Now I need some whole system component suggestions, based on the rooms layout and dimensions.

I went online in search of the JBL's you mentioned DD but didn't see any although I may have seen some locally in big box store setups. I'll have do made another trip into town.

As I may have mentioned, I'm off the states in a month or so and was originally going to pick up and AVR there, looking for dual voltage only. The down side is warranty issues. Shipping back to the US would be time and cost prohibitive.

The good news is that when I contacted the airlines on baggage allowances, I can check 3 bags 65" total (w+l+h) weighing up to 70#'s each. With two of us traveling that comes to 420#'s plus 2 carry the on's.

I can pick up a good AVR here in Asia with the warranty intact and hope to bring the speakers back in the baggage.

So some questions:
Big room..big speakers?

Front mains: I would assume to be towers, but I think they would be hard to conceal in the baggage.
Bookshelf? Doable or would you stick with towers? Center of course to match for obvious reasons.

Surrounds: direct radiating or bi/tri pole? I cannot achieve the recommended 90+ angle on the left side, more like 80-85 but the right surround can be moved as needed.
That being said, should I maintain the same off angle on both, matching the right to the short angled left or slide the right one to the recommended 90-120 degree?

Front highs: I'm also wired for front highs and would buy the AVR accordingly. I've got a lot of lateral room to play with and the height would be about 8' up, dictated by the soffit. I could drop them down if recommended with wire races if needed. I'd have to pick up some wall mounts in the US for these as well.

Wide's: Not an option as I have no side walls.

Rears: Again the wires have been run up inside the wall and around inside the soffit, as opposed to under the tile, so their up there at 8' as well. I could drop races down to the floor behind the curtains but due to some constraints, the spread would be 8' each of the MLP. So how about some input here as well.

Subs: Hard to pack, so I'll have to find some here when I get back. HSI's are not available here that I can see.

I'd like to bring back as many pieces as possible in the baggage, so I'll have to consider size and weight. I can always forfeit the clothes and buy new ones here if I had to.

Again, maybe I'm being a bit anal here (refer to the MerriamWebster note above), but this will be my last setup and I want to get it right.

ANY and ALL suggestions, input and ideas are whole-heartedly appreciated.

Thanks again for the time.

Mike

 

[Bahtman]

In my room, I have one 8ft diameter rug, I bought 5 years ago, now using as a carpet pad, with 4 rectangular, thick rugs on top. That gives me a covered area of 11 ft L~R x 8 ft from just behind the LCRs to the front edges of the seating. That makes all the difference between too live room and one closer to neutral.
Also, I find that speakers that have waveguides (in a horizontal orientation) to be more problematic than speakers w/o WGs, in concrete rooms. (I do have a wall on the right). So my main L/R speakers do not have them.

One speaker suggestion would be JBL Studio 200 series, which are available in Thailand, but not where I live.
I think their waveguide shape might be an improvement for a concrete room, compared to standard waveguides.

I know squat about speaker waveguide but am hot on the hunt for carpet/floor coverings here. I thought about that long ago.

Thanks and if you could reply to my last post, it would be appreciated.

 

[DD66000]

I know squat about speaker waveguide but am hot on the hunt for carpet/floor coverings here. I thought about that long ago.

Thanks and if you could reply to my last post, it would be appreciated.

Hello,
yes most certainly buy the thickest rugs you can find...even layer them as I do.
For that size room, get at towers for the mains. Those JBLs I mentioned, I went onto the JBL website and then it asks what country, and Thailand was on the list, and they showed the Studio 200 series being available there, among other series. The site might even give store locations. And if you do get full range towers, and do not get sub(s) right away, you're only missing the lowest octave or so.

As you do not have a symmetrical room, not much you can do about it.
So you'll have to work with what you've got as far as placing surrounds. if the distances to the main seat do not match, that can be addressed in the speaker setup menu in the AVR/BD player.
As for the surrounds, bi-poles were really developed for the mono surround channel of DPL. But since discrete DD, DTS, bi-pole are not really needed.

To develop a good stereo soundstage (first and foremost), and being you have plenty of room, pull the mains out from the wall. If you bring them 4 ft forward, then push back the seating the same amount. And when the LCRs are properly setup, you most likely will not care about height channels...I don't.
I have my LCRs 5 ft out, in a slight arc. You'll be surprised as to the improvement. I did the same with my son's system last spring, when I visited him in SW Japan. He's lovin it!
When I was there, we saw the JBL Studio 500 series, very good also.
We did not see the Studio 200...and if you really want to go whole hog, the JBL M2 reference monitors...I'd love to hear those.
If you find a JBL dealer, you might be able to special order what you want, and be cheaper than what you might think...I did that 2 1/2 years ago at a JBL/Harman Pro shop, here in Cuenca, when they did not have the AVR I wanted.

 

[Bahtman]

What I've been looking for is a system first. Heading back to the US soon and with a 420# baggage allowance I thought it might be a good idea to bring some components back, however.

I've been looking at what seem to be fair prices on the Pioneer SC, Yamaha RX and Marantz SR's series AVR's. They're not far off the US pricing if at all, I don't have to worry about 110-220 conversions and I'll have an intact warranty. So a purchase here makes sense.

I did find the JBL distributor in Bangkok and will pay him a visit on my way back to the US next month and again on my return.

Doing some random searching over the last week I’ve found that, just for example, the Polk RTi's are the same price here as Crutchfield and Amazon, the KEF Q500 is actually cheaper and the Klipsch RF series are double the price

So it’s just a matter of component combination that would best in my situation; things that would "sync" together properly.

All this talk about matching the properties of the speakers and AVR seems to be a bit daunting to me, but I don’t want to just "settle" if I can help it.

As far as the floor covering, you’re absolutely right. The existing 32" on that cabinet is going out in place of a wall mounted 65" something with a shorter, lower case.

As carpet here is non-existent, the search continues into Bangkok. Persian type rugs are readily available, but not something I’m considering, yet. Locally there are thicker smaller rugs available and if need be stitching 3-4 together may be an option. But your spot on with your thoughts, and I appreciate you taking your time to pass them on.

 

[DD66000]

If you do go with JBL, then match them with Marantz, HK, Pioneer.
Previous experience tells me Yamaha is not a good match.
Any of the JBLs will easily best Polk, Klipsch and imo KEF. I've heard them all.

As for rugs, I have four 4' x 5.5' rugs side-by-side/end~end...11' x 8' very good amount of coverage.

 

[ski2xblack]

So it’s just a matter of component combination that would best in my situation; things that would "sync" together properly.

All this talk about matching the properties of the speakers and AVR seems to be a bit daunting to me, but I don’t want to just "settle" if I can help it.

First things first.

System setup starts with your ears and works backwards from there, step by step, to the source.

Your first and most important consideration, by a wide margin, is the speaker choice (including subs). This is where the rubber meets the road, determines the sonic character of what you'll hear, and sets the absolute limits of your rig, so choose wisely. This aspect should get the bulk of your time and consideration, and the vast proportion of the budget.

The rest of your choices are comparably easy, and should be based on previous choices, purposefully.

If the JBL 500 series that DD66000 mentioned are available locally, they're worth a look/listen.

 

[DD66000]

The 500s are most certainly worth the listen, as the 200 series should be.
In that room the largest tower models should be considered first.

 

[Bahtman]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere and thanks to both Ski and DD for the support.
I contacted the JBL distributor in BKK and he pointed be to some of the retailers there, but I'll stop to see him first and swing a deal. Thai's are notorious negotiators.

He said he'd give me a package deal consisting of 2- Studio 580's, 2-530's a 520 center and a 550P sub. As it happens, there all 6 Ohm's. (Don't know if that's good or bad.) Price tag is 100,000 Baht, roughly converted to the $ is $3125.00.
Searching online US pricing and using Amazon for comparison it's something like $25.00 more here.
Considering not having to slide them by customs here, and getting full warranty in Thailand, it sounds like a pretty good package price and if I can get over the rather odd design they have moved up on my short list.

Additionally, the 500 series JBL's reviews have been glowing throughout the web, so it would confirm the feedback and recommendations I'm getting here are spot on.

The real issue here is matching an AVR to speakers (which I know should come first.) at a fair price, somewhat comparable to the US or Europe, hence the reason for this post. I can audition them in BKK on my way back to the US, but in actuality it's will probably be in a acoustically corrected room.

I'm now gathering info on the Pioneer, Marantz and HK DD mentioned and will get back soon.

But based on the JBL's 6 Ohm rating and output, how much juice will I need to light um' up?
For example:

Marantz
SR 7009 9.2 200w x 9 @6 ohms then another spec says 125W (0.08% @ 8 Ohm).

And the 5009 gets even worse.
SR 5009 7.1 180w x 7
The overview says 180W from the seven amplifiers but the specs page says:

Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 1% 1ch Drive)180 W
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% 2ch Drive)140 W
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)100 W

As hard as I've tried and searched, I can't wrap my head around this.

Can you enlighten me??

Thanks again

 

[ski2xblack]

Either of those AVRs is probably capable of giving you hearing damage through the JBLs.

How much are the Denon x4000 over there? It will do just as well for less than the Marantz alternatives (at least over here), any savings can go towards your second sub.

 

[DD66000]

Ohms is a relative thing. Any rating be it 2, 4, 6, 8 is nominal.
The resistance of a speaker changes as the frequency changes.
And if you get an AVR with pre-outs, you can always add a power amp at a later time, if you think you need it.
I have two power amps. A stereo, and 5 channel. But I also have a 7 channel analogue pre-amp I use for everything except streaming movies.

As I said before, I auditioned the smaller 570 in Japan last year, they were nice and that was full range w/o a sub. The 570 were missing the lower octaves, obviously.