Subwoofer Bang for Buck Comparison

[vividere]

I am seeking a subwoofer for my current 5.0 system. I have the following configuration:

Yamaha RX-V1500 Receiver
JBL S312 Studio Series Front Speakers
JBL S Center Studio Series Center Speaker
Omega (DLK) 10" 3-way surround speakers (my old main speakers)

The home theater room is as about as bad as possible with hardwood floors, lots of glass and openings to other rooms. The room is 15' wide, 13' deep, and 8' high.

Here are the speakers I can get for around $300 or less including the JBL Studio series speaker at the highest cost in the list.

(Speakers listed in order of cost to me including shipping)

JBL E150P, 10", 150W, 27-150Hz, 5yr, 33.5#, $190

JBL E250P, 12", 250W, 25-150Hz, 5yr, 43#, $239

Cerwin-Vega CLSC-12S, 12", 350W, 28-150Hz, 5yr, 46#, $240

Cadence Xsub, 12", 350W, 25-250Hz, 2yr, 49#, $249

Velodyne FRP-1000, 10", 115W, 35-140Hz, 2yr, 35#, $249

BIC H100, 12", 150W, 24-200Hz, 2yr, 35#, $264

Klipsch KSW-10, 10", 225W, 22-125Hz, 5yr, 29#, $299

JBL S120P II, 12", 400W, 22-150Hz, 5yr, 56#, $322

There is a JBL PSW-D110 available locally for about $100. I know they like to blow a cap I could proactively replace.

I would love to have the matching JBL Studio sub but at 3X the cost of the used JBL or at nearly 2X the cost of the new E150, it is hard to justify buying it but I would like the experts opinion.

Thanks and happy new year!

 

[Tomorrow]

I am seeking a subwoofer for my current 5.0 system. I have the following configuration:

Yamaha RX-V1500 Receiver
JBL S312 Studio Series Front Speakers
JBL S Center Studio Series Center Speaker
Omega (DLK) 10" 3-way surround speakers (my old main speakers)

The home theater room is as about as bad as possible with hardwood floors, lots of glass and openings to other rooms. The room is 15' wide, 13' deep, and 8' high.

Here are the speakers I can get for around $300 or less including the JBL Studio series speaker at the highest cost in the list.

(Speakers listed in order of cost to me including shipping)

JBL E150P, 10", 150W, 27-150Hz, 5yr, 33.5#, $190

JBL E250P, 12", 250W, 25-150Hz, 5yr, 43#, $239

Cerwin-Vega CLSC-12S, 12", 350W, 28-150Hz, 5yr, 46#, $240

Cadence Xsub, 12", 350W, 25-250Hz, 2yr, 49#, $249

Velodyne FRP-1000, 10", 115W, 35-140Hz, 2yr, 35#, $249

BIC H100, 12", 150W, 24-200Hz, 2yr, 35#, $264

Klipsch KSW-10, 10", 225W, 22-125Hz, 5yr, 29#, $299

JBL S120P II, 12", 400W, 22-150Hz, 5yr, 56#, $322

There is a JBL PSW-D110 available locally for about $100. I know they like to blow a cap I could proactively replace.

I would love to have the matching JBL Studio sub but at 3X the cost of the used JBL or at nearly 2X the cost of the new E150, it is hard to justify buying it but I would like the experts opinion.

Thanks and happy new year!

I have nearly the same setup as you do (only difference are my JBL J350 10", 3-way surrounds). I would have trashed my old S120PII if I could have afforded it....just on principle, lol. I sold it for a profit, however, instead. That sub is nowhere near adequate, much less competitive with similar priced subs. It's as muddy, the bass as sloppy as a pigpen.

Of those subs you have listed, the Cadence X-Sub has had the best reviews by AH members. However, if you can afford it, I would strongly suggest you go with an Hsu or SVS subwoofer. (They start at $300...the Hsu STF-1.) These will make you happy and not wish for an upgrade soon. And they are far superior to those you've listed. While they are a bit more expensive than the subs you listed, they are without doubt the best bang-for-buck subs out there. Check 'em out. ----->

http://www.hsuresearch.com/
http://www.svsound.com/index.cfm

 

[Matt34]

If you have to stay in your budget I would narrow your list down to these three.

Bic H-100
Cadence X-sub
JBL E250P

PM Brian32672 here on this forum, he has had both the Bic and the JBL at the same time.

 

[vividere]

I have read a lot about the Hsu and SVS speakers and don't doubt they are superior. It is hard to conceive that the 8" SFT-1 can compare to the 12" models I have listed. I know that is what people said about Bose too

I was dissapointed to hear your feeling on the top priced on in the list, the Studio series JBL which would have been the match for my other Studio speakers.

I also looked at the Dayton but Parts Express discontinued the downward firing sub and I read they are coming out with a front firing version.

Thanks for your feedback!

 

[vividere]

Matt,

You would rate the Northridge series E250P over the Studio series S120PII?

Seems funny that within their own speaker line the cheaper one would be better than the more expensive one? Sure could happen, but seems unlikely.

Thanks!

Lew

 

[Matt34]

Matt,

You would rate the Northridge series E250P over the Studio series S120PII?

Seems funny that within their own speaker line the cheaper one would be better than the more expensive one? Sure could happen, but seems unlikely.

Thanks!

Lew

I haven't seen any reviews on the S120P so I did not recomnend it. The 3 I've mention have been throughly discussed here and overall have received positive reviews.

If I were you, I'd wait and save a bit longer and try the SVS PB-10 ISD. At $429 +shipping your going to get the best sub under $500 and won't feel the need to upgrade anytime soon.

Might also try here for a used sub. http://www.audiogon.com/

 

[The13thGryphon]

vividere,

Don't discount the Hsu subs because they only have an 8" driver. A good sub is much more than just a large driver. The amp, the size of the enclosure, the tuning of the port, the cabinet and bracing inside, the crossover, and the overall design of the unit as a whole play as much a part as the size of the driver. Anyone can take a 12" woofer and drop it in a box and call it a sub... but does it go low, loud, and do so cleanly?

The Hsu and SVS subs do! Whether the same can be said for the ones on your list is debatable.

The SVS PB10-ISD is a killer sub for only $429. It will blow away any of the subs you've listed (in my opinion). As long as you've got a home theater receiver or pre/pro that has the crossover built in you'll be fine. The PB10 doesn't have speaker-level inputs... only low level.

If you need speaker-level inputs then consider the HSU STF-2 at $399. Like the PB10 above it also has a 10" driver. These two subs will go lower than the 8" models, and I'm confident that they would trash the inexpensive 12" subs.

 

[Tomorrow]

Well said, Gryphon.

Lew, I've owned both the S120PII and the STF-1. The STF-1 is (I'm gonna shout here) ABSOLUTELY the better subwoofer. I currently run an STF-3. Oooh..wee. The only sub upgrading I'm even contemplating is adding a Turbocharger from Hsu, when they become available, shortly.

 

[jbrillo]

vividere,

I have to agree with some of the other guys here. Save a little more and get either an Hsu or SVS sub. I owned an older JBL sub, a PB-12 and I thought it was the greatest thing in the world since it was my 1st subwoofer. It got killed(not died) last year('05) after 5-years of loyal service. I did my own research for a replacement & everywhere I went I heard nothing but good things about Hsu & SVS. I orignally thought I would just replace it with another JBL sub too till I started researching. I decided to go with SVS, no particular reason, just a gut feeling. From what I've read, I believe Hsu & SVS are equal so I didn't think I'd go wrong either way. Of course research is one thing, actually hearing it is another. I was skeptical at first b/c you have to buy the sub to hear it(they're not sold in stores). Though they do have a 30-day return policy, but I think you pay shipping if you return it. Anyways, after hearing my PB12-ISD, I realized how crappy my old JBL really was. I really consider myself still a novice to this sort of thing, but differences between the subs were truly noticeable. Scenes like the opening of Star Wars Episode II made the JBL whimper(distort) with the extreme amounts of bass presented by it. The SVS handled it with no problem. I had to turn down the gain considerably on the JBL to play that scene. My point is this: even if it takes a little longer, you'll be much happier if you save to buy a better subwoofer from Hsu or SVS or some other company with an equal qaulity sub at the same price.

One more thing, your sub doesn't need to match the rest of your speakers. I have JBL's all the way around too. Like you I've also got S312's as my mains. The SVS sounds great with them. I'm sure JBL's Synthesis series sub is awesome, but I can't afford it so I'll never find out. Happy hunting!!!

 

[vividere]

Thanks for all the great feedback. I simply can't justify spending more than $300 for the sub...sorry about that..

Will I be so unhappy with a cheaper sub that I would be better without?

When I don't have a sub at all, what does the receiver do with the lower frequencies? Since there is no where to send the LFE signal, does it simply get thrown out?

My left/right front speakers have 12" woofers capable of 35Hz. How much of the bass are they processing and how does that compare to having a dedicated woofer? It seems like so much of the sound goes to the center it makes me wonder how much of the signal even goes to the l/r speakers at all.

It seems I am being suggested to buy a Lexus or walk instead of buying a Toyota and being able to drive. I have dreamed of having some great low end bass to help complete my system but it seems I am being told no sub woofer is better than a cheaper one?

Thanks again for helping this audio newbie...

Lew

 

[tedmjr2]

Vividere, I think the better analogy would be to save for a Toyota Camry rather than purchase the Dodge Neon now. With the 12" drivers you're now using, your situation is more like "riding the bus" rather than "walking."

If you must stick with your under $300 budget, I'd get a Hsu STF-1 or the Cadence X-sub.

Remember, your fellow members with experience were looking out for you rather than push an Audioholic eccentric desire.

 

[Mr. Lamb Fries]

I was happy with the Studio series S120PII until i heard subs that were built with more attention to detail. The sub played loud but was really sloppy. IMO, JBL seemed to build their subs for the masses but sacraficed on quality. My sub blew a little while back and have been looking for a replacement. I looked to replace components but did not want to invest $200 into a sub I was not happy with in the first place. I did a lot of research and a bunch of in store demos. After hearing subs that were better built quality, I would not replace with ANY JBL sub. They seemed not up to par with others (even in the same price range). Looking for best bang for your buck, i was disapointed and sorry i wanted to match the sub with the rest of my speakers. I am now waiting till I find a great deal on used/b-stock, or have enough spare cash I can spend on a sub I will be happy with for a long time. My heart is set on SVS or HSU but only time will tell.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Vividere,

From your list, the Cadence is probably the best sub for the money, but I'm not sure they've ironed out the hum issue in the amp. I've been through one, and the customer service is great. My new amp had a hum for a day, but I unplugged the rca, and reinserted it and it's been fine. The amp they use is a monster for a budget sub, and the build quality is very good (I think it's around 50lbs - but don't go by weight alone, the S120PII is heavy as well).

I've not had the chance to compare the PE (Dayton Sub 120) 12" sub to the Cadence, but if money is an issue, I'd highly consider it. They've redesigned it for this year, and it's a bargain. Many have had very good things to say about it. Will it compare to a $250 Cadence? Probably not, but my guess is that two would probably be better than one Cadence - same price.

 

[The13thGryphon]

If $300 is your limit, with no exceptions, then so be it. I'd still recommend either the HSU STF-1 or the Outlaw LFM-2.

According to Howard Ferstler of The Sensible Sound the HSU STF-1 is a “Sensational sub... it easily surpassed the $500 NHT SW10... as well as the $600 Velodyne CT-120... and was superior to a $500 Axiom EP-175... it had no trouble eclipsing the performance of the pint-sized, $995 Sunfire True Sub Super Junior..."

Check out the full review at: http://www.hsuresearch.com/sensible_sound_oct_04c.pdf

Also, Daniel Kumin of Sound and Vision stated that “Hsu's STF-1 is one impressive little subwoofer. It went plenty low for true home theater action, with meaningful volume all the way down to 25 Hz — a lot more than I expected. It wasn't boomy yet had me running for cover during the scene in The Italian Job when the armored truck blows through the pavement.”

You can see that review at:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?print_page=y&section_id=3&article_id=678&page_number=3&preview

I know it is counter intuitive that a sub with an 8" driver can and does easily outperform many subs with 12" drivers, but it is quite simply the truth. Do not discount these mighty tiny titans. Both these subs will ROCK!

 

[xboxweasel]

Why does no one ever consider the paradigm subs? I have a PW-2100. Are they really that bad?

 

[westcott]

It seems I am being suggested to buy a Lexus or walk instead of buying a Toyota and being able to drive. I have dreamed of having some great low end bass to help complete my system but it seems I am being told no sub woofer is better than a cheaper one?

Thanks again for helping this audio newbie...

Lew

I think that is what everyone is saying. When you think of it as two components, a speaker and an amp., what do you really think you are going to get for US$150 each!?

And when you consider that a good sub is burdened with the strain of all the lower frequencies generated and typically handled by all the other speakers, you can start to appreciate why investing in a good sub is so important.

Happy Holidays!

 

[vividere]

I am astounded by all of the great responses plus another one I got in mail.

First of all I am not an audiophile and don't know if I will know booming, tight, accurate, or other such things, at least when I don't have two I can flip between and choose one over the other.

A speaker not in my list is the Dayton I have read a fair amount about but it seems ************ is out of them now so that is a moot point for a near term purchase.

One of the things I am concerned about is the STF-1 being rated at 32Hz whereas the E250P is rated at 25Hz. Isn't part of the reason for getting the sub is not just to move the lower frequencies over from the mains, but being able to go deeper than what I currently have. Going from 35Hz in my mains "down" to 32Hz doesn't seem like such a step compared to going down to 25Hz of the E250P or 22Hz of the S120PII. The JBL's also have more power (250 and 400 vs. 150).

And maybe it doesn't matter the way sound works, but doesn't a front firing sub give you more "feel" than a back or down firing model?

I hate to even bring it up but a local guy is selling the older PSW-D110 for about $100..no tax, no shipping, go and pick it up. The specs on it are closer to the STF-1. 10", 30Hz, and 150W. I know from what I have been told that the SFT-1 is WAY better...but would *I* know the difference? Would it be 3X better? Would I get 3X the pleasure?

Thanks very much for taking your holiday and trying to help me with the confusing decision.

Lew

 

[The13thGryphon]

Why does no one ever consider the paradigm subs? I have a PW-2100. Are they really that bad?

I wouldn't say that Paradigm subs are bad, in fact for many of their models I'd say quite the opposite. However, your PW-2100 is up there in the $700 range, isn't it? That's more than double what vividere is able or willing to spend.

Also, for that money I think lots of folks would say that the Hsu and SVS subs can offer a bit more due to the lack of distributor and retailer markup. When purchasing from Outlaw Audio, Hsu, or SVS you eliminate that additional cost and are buying direct.

That being said, if I could get my hands on a Paradigm Servo-15 for a reasonable price I'd grab it up in an instant! That is one hellacious sub!

Happy Holidays

 

[xboxweasel]

One of the things I am concerned about is the STF-1 being rated at 32Hz whereas the E250P is rated at 25Hz. Isn't part of the reason for getting the sub is not just to move the lower frequencies over from the mains, but being able to go deeper than what I currently have. Going from 35Hz in my mains "down" to 32Hz doesn't seem like such a step compared to going down to 25Hz of the E250P or 22Hz of the S120PII. The JBL's also have more power (250 and 400 vs. 150).

Even though the specs on your speakers and those subs are close, by having a sub take care of the low frequency work will give your receiver a break in driving the speakers at 80Hz and up. A sub has it's own amplifier. The receiver only sends it the preout signal. Low frequency reproduction requires a lot of power. And if a receiver has to handle all that work it will surely clip and won't be as dynamic. Even with my seperate amps for my speakers (ie: more power to them vs from my receiver) I still use a sub.

 

[xboxweasel]

I wouldn't say that Paradigm subs are bad, in fact for many of their models I'd say quite the opposite. However, your PW-2100 is up there in the $700 range, isn't it? That's more than double what vividere is able or willing to spend.

I was just wondering. That is true. Mine was $750 about 1.5 years ago. It recently went for $700.

I thought price might be a factor. But given the nature of this forum and the people that come here I figured that at least someone would have the same sub. A lot of people here have some very expensive equipment.

I do like my sub. However, I do like many others too. A lot seem to have more punch. While mine will shake the house down. I can get a lot of punch from my fronts if I let them, but that requires some very loud listening. I think that a sealed sub will have more punch but won't go as low as a vented version. IMHO I think that everyone needs matching 2 subs. One more great rib breaking punch and one for earth moving vibrations.

I guess every system is going to have different sound characteristics. I wish I could afford to play with them all.