Sub Recommendations

[shadyJ]

A couple points:

If you can have large subwoofers, there is no reason not to do so. If you can handle a large ported 12", there is no reason to get a small sealed sub, from a performance perspective. My recommendation is made in the interest of the OP's neighbors and for someone who sounds like they could be moving around a lot. To be blunt, big ported subs are not made for those living in close proximity to others. You can not stop the sound, period, and the deeper the bass, the more audibly it will be heard in surrounding rooms. Even a thick firewall won't stop a 20 hz tone.

Also, contrary to some of what has been said, sound does literally travel through walls, and that has nothing to do with porousness. Sound is a compression wave, the only way to stop it is by either not having a transmission medium (ie a vacuum), or having an inert obstacle thicker than the wavelength itself. Since bass has such long wavelengths, you need a very thick obstacle indeed (take a look at this chart). Most anechoic chambers don't even try to deal with bass below 80 hz, and I have never heard of one trying to deal with anything like 20 or 30 hz.

As for concrete being a transmission medium that a subdude can actually help with, well, all I can say is I am very skeptical of the idea. No disrespect toward Firstreflection, but it almost seems to me that he does not quite understand the premise of the Gramma or Subdude. Aurelex's own claims of its function looks a bit different than his. I don't buy Aurlex's claims of its usefulness on concrete in its product description, by the way. To be clear, my understanding of bass isolation pads is they exist to absorb the actual mechanical vibration of the subwoofer itself, and this isn't the same thing as 'sound', and Aurelex is claiming it helps with more than this with talk of "secondary resonance". I would guess their numbers are pretty greatly exaggerated for normal operating conditions, and they are making a killing by selling something for $50 that can easily be made for less than $5 (or just use polyurethane blocks which are commonly used as packing material for shipping light things and do it for free). I think the actual usefulness of grammas and subdudes might make for a great article for Audioholics to put these claims to the test.

 

[timoteo]

ShadyJ: im curious, have you ever or do you own a SubDude or platform of the like?

If packing foam worked just as good as acousticsl foam, why would recording studios & theaters spend thousands of dollars on room treatments if the cheaper foam that you mentioned could be used?

I too would love to see some analysis & comparisons to the 2 different materials being discussed.

Until then i guess we can agree to disagree!!

 

[shadyJ]

ShadyJ: im curious, have you ever or do you own a SubDude or platform of the like?

If packing foam worked just as good as acousticsl foam, why would recording studios & theaters spend thousands of dollars on room treatments if the cheaper foam that you mentioned could be used?

I too would love to see some analysis & comparisons to the 2 different materials being discussed.

Until then i guess we can agree to disagree!!

I haven't used a subdude or anything like that, my subs are in all on a carpeted concrete surface, so there is no need. I could be wrong about that, I could also be wrong that this HDMI cable performs better than Monoprice HDMI, but I remain skeptical.

We are talking about a specific kind of foam. Also, we are not talking about acoustical foam. Aurelex is not using ordinary acoustic foam in their risers, they are using some version of polyurethane. Room treatments are a completely different subject, one I wouldn't be qualified to opine on beyond the very basic theories. I do know that in a pinch one can use polyurethane egg crate sheets to deaden some frequencies. I would be interested to see how that compares to professional absorption panels, given the large price difference. I agree comparisons would be interesting, another idea for a good audioholics article.

 

[FirstReflection]

I can appreciate your skepticism, shadyJ. I'm not a fan of the "just listen for yourself and see" advice that gets thrown around so much as a "catch all" for any and every claim.

However, when it comes to decoupling and its usefullness on all types of construction - including concrete - there really is no easier method of "proof" than simply trying one and hearing the results for yourself - particularly in rooms that are outside your theater.

Inside the theater, something like eliminating a rattle or reducing the shaking of a projected image are things that you can objectively observe. You don't have to be "primed" to observe such things or fall victim to a placebo effect. Similarly, if you have a friend inside the theater gradually inceasing the volume of some bass heavy material, and you're in another room of the house or a neighboring apartment, you can objectively find out whether you can turn the volume up to a higher level or not before you're able to hear the bass in that other room.

Skepticism is good. But I can't agree with stating with certainty that a decoupling device will make no difference on a concrete floor if you've never tried one. Granted, the "null hypothesis" is always that there is no difference until you can prove that there IS a difference. Even if we perceive a difference, we still assume that there is no actual difference until we can scientifically measure and -at a minimum - correlate. With the proper data, we can attempt to reject the null hypothesis. You're absolutely right that it would be great if Audioholics would tackle this subject!

But I've made enough observations in my own experience that I have rejected my own, personal null hypothesis about decoupling. For many people, simply hearing the difference for themself will be enough "proof" that decoupling provides benefits, even on concrete. You could be absolutely right that your carpet already provides enough of a decoupling effect that a GRAMMA wouldn't provide any benefits in your particular setup. But I had a very thick carpet in one of my apartments that decoupled just as well as the GRAMMA for flat-bottomed subs where the entire surface area of the bottom of the sub was in contact with the carpet, but did not decouple nearly as well for subs that had "feet", which dug into the carpet and ultimately coupled the sub to the concrete floor beneath once again. For the subs with "feet", the GRAMMA provided audible benefits for my neighbors. So that was concrete AND thick carpet and the GRAMMA still made an improvement - albeit only with subs that had "feet" rather than just a flat bottom.

As for the type of foam - I don't think it really matters just so long as it is squishy enough to act as a shock absorber, but firm enough to not compress and basically become solid under the weight of the sub. If you have a lighter weight sub, I'm sure you could use foam that is not quite as stiff as the foam that Auralex or eD uses. But using stiffer foam probably isn't the best idea - the Auralex platforms can already hold 300 lbs. according to Auralex, so being less squishy than their foam might be too rigid to provide enough flex to act as a good shock absorber.

I don't seem to get many items packed in nice "packing foam" anymore. It all seems to be styrofoam (which I'm pretty sure would be too stiff and easy to break) or those inflated plastic bags (which would burst too easily). I think you'd want something like the "molded foam", where there are shaped cut outs to hold fragile items perfectly in place. That type of foam seems to have about the right level of "squishiness" to make a good decoupler Afterall, the whole point of that type of foam is to protect fragile objects from the various knocks and shocks during transport. In other words: decoupling!

Once again, you seem to think the $50 price is too high for what the SubDude or GRAMMA is. And I can understand that. There's certainly nothing fancy or expensive about the materials used to make one. I think it just boils down to whether $50 is a lot or a little to you, individually. I don't drink coffee. I know plenty of people who easily spend $50 a week on caffeine. So heck, I could buy a GRAMMA a week and still come out ahead!

 

[GranteedEV]

On just about everything to do with bass in rooms including construction techniques:

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/technology/whitepapers/inf-rooms_3.pdf

No mention whatsoever of decoupling.

my sub is not decoupled, and I it's not an issue at all. The only "rattling" I get is very directly related to a specific subsonic frequency at high enough SPL. Is the solution to get rid of rattling to reduce the bass? No. Are these decouplers large enough to do anything at bass frequencies < 100hz? I'd be impressed if they were.

The only reason it might help, is if the subwoofer itself is a poor design with flexing panels. If the panels on the sub are sufficiently rigid then it won't transfer any energy through to the floor.

 

[shadyJ]

Say your sub is vibrating stuff around the house, and you don't like that. How much of that is from the intentional pressure waves of sound and how much of that is from the vibration of the sub enclosure? How do you know that is what the sub isn't supposed to be doing? Like Granteed said, a properly damped and braced subwoofer shouldn't have much in the way of mechanical cabinet vibration to begin with, and certainly not enough to cause external vibrations to interfere with the overall sound. How do you know you aren't damping acoustic energy that is supposed to be emitted in the first place?

 

[FirstReflection]

Whelp, I'll be honest, I'm not sure how best to explain things in this case for folks like Granteed and shadyJ. I don't have the math and physics skills necessary to lay out the equations that might help to explain what's going on. So, unfortunately, I'm simply left with nothing more than observation.

What confuses me though is that we have at least a couple of folks here who have not tried decoupling and a couple of folks who have. The folks who have not tried it are saying with a fair amount of certainty that it makes no difference - but they haven't observed for themselves a situation with decoupling and a situation without it, so I'm not sure how they can feel so sure that there is no difference when they haven't even observed the second scenario.

For the couple of folks who have observed decoupling, we've also observed the same room, subwoofers and rooms outside of the theater WITHOUT decoupling. So we've observed both scenarios and observed a difference between those two scenarios. And thus, we attribute that difference to the introduction of the decoupling device, since that is the only thing that was changed. It is still only correlation based on observation, but it is easily repeatable. Very simple experiment - play the subwoofer as normal with no decoupling: observe. Then play the subwoofer with decoupling: and observe. When the results are the same every time, it's a fairly convincing conclusion - and that's about the best I can do, I'm sorry to say

But I find it a bit weird to say, "I've seen one scenario out of the two. I don't need to see the second scenario because there's nothing wrong with the first one." I mean, I guess it's following the same logic as what a lot of people use to dispell the idea of using uber-expensive cables vs. cheap Monoprice cables. But the difference there is that both scenarios have been well tested and documented. Both scenarios commonly observed. I'll completely agree that there's a severe lack of scientific data and measurements when it comes to decoupling. But unlike cables - where there's lots of data - that lack of readily available data to reject the null hypothesis does not say with certainty that there is no data to reject the null hypothesis. It's merely the case that the data has not been collected and made readily available yet.

To put it simply, the only reason I'm arguing for the side of, "decoupling makes an audible difference" is because I've observed it. It's that simple. I wasn't convinced by math or measurements. I'd LOVE to have the scientific data to back up my observations! But, in my case, it really is just a "seeing is believing" situation. I've tried several rooms and several subs, both with and without decoupling and observed a similar difference each and every time.

Now, in a case like Granteed's, when he says his non-decoupled sub is "not and issue", I'm not totally sure what that means. To me, "not an issue" simply sounds like "I don't hear anything objectionable" in this case. Not hearing anything objectionable doesn't mean that adding decoupling wouldn't make any audible difference - especially in rooms outside the theater. It could also mean that Granteed's sub is already decoupled in some fashion, or that his room is closer to inert, or that the subwoofers he is using produce very little in the way of physical vibrations. But has Granteed tried putting a decoupler underneath his subwoofers and observing? That's the real question. If so, and he observed no difference, then okey-doke, decoupling makes no difference in his room with his subs. It'd be just like the apartment that I had with thick carpeting when I used flat-bottomed subs with no "feet". I didn't observe any difference between the sub being right on the carpet vs. being on a decoupling platform. And if that were the only comparison I had ever observed, I might have been inclined to believe that a decoupling platform makes no difference what-so-ever! But that wasn't the only comparison I'd ever observed. I also observed flat-bottomed subs on both concrete and wood-frame floors - either bare or with only a thin layer of carpet - and I'd observed subs with "feet" on many different flooring situations. And in all of THOSE cases, I observed a marked difference between no decoupling and a decoupling platform - again, most noteably in rooms outside of the theater.

So that's really all I've got to offer - my observations. I'm not trying to "pull the wool" over anybody's eyes here. I'm also, just to be clear, absolutely NOT saying that you must spend at least $50 on an Auralex branded decoupler. You can totally find a decoupling solution for less money. Auralex is just an easy example because they're widely available - nothing more.

But I'm a little perplexed by folks saying that it's not even worth trying or that all of my observations and the similar observations of other people who have tried decoupling must be mistaken because this isn't a well documented subject.

It's not germane to the argument directly, but there's a tangential thing to consider here, which is the cost to run a simple experiment. If the cost to try your sub without decoupling and with were very high, then it would make more sense to me to rely on properly gathered scientific data. For a case like $10 speaker wire vs. $10,000 speaker wire, it makes more sense, for most people, to rely on the easily found data rather than trying a direct comparison and observation themselves. Same thing with a $50 CD player vs. a $5000 CD player when using a digital output. The easily found data says there won't be any significant difference. It's much more practical to rely on that than a direct observation.

But in the case of your subwoofer with and without decoupling, even if you're using a pre-built platform from Auralex, you're talking about $0 vs. $50 - and you can return that $50 platform when you're done! It's a cheap experiment. But more than that, there's a LACK of easily found data, which makes a direct observation all the more desireable.

The worry, of course, is the placebo effect and the untrustworthiness of human perception. There are plenty of people who claim - swear in fact - to have observed a difference when using $10 speaker wire vs. $10,000 speaker wire. And I think that might be the primary cause for concern whenever a claim is made that a product is making a difference without the scientific measurements and data to back it up. Valid concern! But we should also be careful to not simply reject all claims of observed differences out of hand. How many of us wouldn't actually like to compare $10 speaker wire to $10,000 speaker wire, "just to see"? Not only that, but sometimes, once proper measurements are made, we discover that there really IS a difference. In the case of a lot of uber-expensive cables and wires, the uber-expensive stuff IS making a difference - by having very high inductance or capacitance that is altering the shape of the signal! So the measurements sometimes give us a surprising result. In the case of uber-expensive cables, sometimes they're working as a passive EQ. In the strictest sense, that's a "bad" thing, since the signal is being altered and that is distortion. But it can also mean that the person who claimed to hear a difference wasn't spouting bullsh--! He really was hearing a measureable difference. Whether he liked the difference or not is another matter entirely.

So, can decoupling make a difference? My observations are that it can. Is it a "good" difference or a "bad" difference? Honestly, I don't know. But I can say that, for me, it was a desireable difference because the thumping of bass in rooms outside of the theater was reduced. Was that just a placebo effect? I would have to say no. And that's simply because I was able to turn the volume dial higher before hearing the bass in a room outside the theater when decoupling was in place vs. when it was not.

But honestly, this IS a case where "give it a try for yourself" really is a viable option. I wouldn't go telling most people to just "try it for yourself" with $10,000 speaker wire or $5000 CD players. The cost to run the experiment is prohibitive AND there's ample data alreardy available. But a $50 experiment where you can return the $50 device at the end? That's a cheap experiment AND there's a LACK of data. So in this case , I'm going to recommend that you simply, "give it a try for yourself".

I really hope that shadyJ and Granteed will. They're coming in as skeptics, which is great! That's exactly what I would hope for. I don't really want an opinion that's already gung-ho beforehand and bound to report back positive results regardless

 

[Hlam]

I ordered two subdudes yesterday. The main reason was to rise up my new svs subs. They are smaller than my old subs so according to my wife the lamps are now to low. I will let you know if I think that decoupling them makes an audible difference.

 

[FirstReflection]

I ordered two subdudes yesterday. The main reason was to rise up my new svs subs. They are smaller than my old subs so according to my wife the lamps are now to low. I will let you know if I think that decoupling them makes an audible difference.

Cool, cool! Please do

And please do a comparison while listening in other rooms, not just the room where the subwoofer is located. Have you ever been in the bedroom and been able to hear the subwoofer thumping away? Try that both with and without the SubDudes because that's really what we're mostly talking about. It's reducing structure-borne, rather than air-borne sound transmission. So if the bass is really going through walls and the physical shaking of the subwoofer box in direct contact with the floor really has no effect as shadyJ and Granteed are claiming, then you won't hear any difference! However, if the physical shaking of the subwoofer box in direct contact with the floor IS causing the structure of your house to shake in sympathy, and the bass is now travelling with the physical structure of your house as its medium - as I am claiming - then you will hear a difference - at the very least in other rooms outside your theater.

I look forward to your observations!

 

[shadyJ]

What would make a difference in comparisons would be if he was in another room and had someone placing and removing the sub without letting him know when it was being used or not. It would also make a difference if he had an SPL meter to measure how the sound is being affected with the subdude.

 

[timoteo]

I agree with ShadyJ. The Test should be somewhat blind. Have the friend play something at the same volume. Do an A/B with the same source material same volume. But dont have the friend tell him which time is with or without the SubDude. The SPL meter may or may not help but worth a shot.

I did this same test like i mentioned, with an old neighbor that lived below me. He said he noticed a difference. I wonder if this test will give similar results. Look forward to hearing about it.

 

[FirstReflection]

Absolutely. If there's a way to listen and compare without knowing when the decoupler is in place and when it isn't, that would be great. I'm not sure how logistically easy or difficult that might be. If the sub is fairly heavy, I don't imagine one person could keep the bass playing and be able to move the subwoofer on and off the decoupler without affecting the sound while the sub is being moved, but maybe a couple of friends could be in the theater while the person llistening is in another room and they could quickly lift, place/remove and lower while the sub continues to play? At worst, you'd just have to stop the sound while the decoupler is being moved into and out of place. That's not ideal, but if there are periodic stops where sometimes a change is made and other time no change is made, if you do it enough times, you should be able to see what percentage of the time the listener was able to correctly tell the difference.

For the SPL measurements, you'd have to make sure that the baseline - that would be with the sub directly on the floor with no decoupler in place - is playing loud enough for the bass to register on the meter in the other room. It's not always as easy as it sounds. For example, if I'm in my kitchen in my apartment and my neighbor below me is playing some bass heavy music, I can hear some of the thumping coming from below me, but it isn't very loud - not loud enough to register with any accuracy on my Radio Shack SPL meter or iPhone SPL meter anyway (I've tried ). So I'd have to get my neighbor to really crank it in order to just get any sort of reading. The problem is, if the decoupler is effective, that could drop the reading off of the meter again. That, in and of itself, would be a result worth mentioning, but it wouldn't be able to say how much the SPL had dropped, just that it had. Regardless, if you're able, it's certainly worth trying out!

 

[NDyse10]

Well guys I just ordered the SVS PB12 NSD about 5 mintues ago.

Now is the anticipation of it getting here!

I decided with the SVS over HSU because of the amp and it is a bit smaller. I also didn't like how the HSU had a side firing woofer.

Thanks for the help.

 

[FirstReflection]

Well guys I just ordered the SVS PB12 NSD about 5 mintues ago.

Now is the anticipation of it getting here!

I decided with the SVS over HSU because of the amp and it is a bit smaller. I also didn't like how the HSU had a side firing woofer.

Thanks for the help.

Ooh...nicey nice!

Congrats! I think you're going to be pretty darn pleased! Honestly, you can't go "wrong" with either choice. I'm really happy the way SVSound has done business this past year though. I didn't always like them so much because they used to always have long back orders and they'd announce and take pre orders on products that were literally YEARS away sometimes. But more recently, with some of the changes that have gone on on the business side over there - I really like how they're doing things right now.

And the Sledge amps that they designed and are using - they really are a cut above. Just excellent subwoofer amps.

I'm excited for you! Please, please, please come back and write your impressions for us forum folk, won't you?

Enjoy!

 

[NDyse10]

Ooh...nicey nice!

Congrats! I think you're going to be pretty darn pleased! Honestly, you can't go "wrong" with either choice. I'm really happy the way SVSound has done business this past year though. I didn't always like them so much because they used to always have long back orders and they'd announce and take pre orders on products that were literally YEARS away sometimes. But more recently, with some of the changes that have gone on on the business side over there - I really like how they're doing things right now.

And the Sledge amps that they designed and are using - they really are a cut above. Just excellent subwoofer amps.

I'm excited for you! Please, please, please come back and write your impressions for us forum folk, won't you?

Enjoy!

Absolutely. I am sure I will have some questions on how to set it up correctly as well.

 

[hanfrac]

Congrats to the original poster on making the decision. I've been researching and reading and am stuck.

I have the following choices for a large, J-shaped room (I'd estimate 8000 cu ft in total) where the viewing/listening area is at the bottom of the J:
- FV12 - $565 shipped
- LFM12 EX - $574 shipped (B-stock)
- PB12 - $719 shipped (outlet stock)
- Cadence CSX15 - $499 shipped
- no HSU because of shipping and sales tax

My L/R are large speakers that go pretty deep, so the FV12's dropoff at 100mhz is less of a problem.

Yesterday, I was pretty sure I was getting the LFM12 EX B-stock.

My one question is this - for mixed use (equal home theater vs. music) in a big room, is the Outlaw a better buy than the Rythmik at the same cost?

Note - spending more or getting 2 subs or buying a better sub for more is not something I want to consider. I'm considering one of the above only.

Thanks in advance.

 

[FirstReflection]

Congrats to the original poster on making the decision. I've been researching and reading and am stuck.

I have the following choices for a large, J-shaped room (I'd estimate 8000 cu ft in total) where the viewing/listening area is at the bottom of the J:
- FV12 - $565 shipped
- LFM12 EX - $574 shipped (B-stock)
- PB12 - $719 shipped (outlet stock)
- Cadence CSX15 - $499 shipped
- no HSU because of shipping and sales tax

My L/R are large speakers that go pretty deep, so the FV12's dropoff at 100mhz is less of a problem.

Yesterday, I was pretty sure I was getting the LFM12 EX B-stock.

My one question is this - for mixed use (equal home theater vs. music) in a big room, is the Outlaw a better buy than the Rythmik at the same cost?

Note - spending more or getting 2 subs or buying a better sub for more is not something I want to consider. I'm considering one of the above only.

Thanks in advance.

That's a very, very large room. 3000 - 4000 cubic feet is "large", so you're well beyond that! I just want to prepare you for the fact that, if you like to listen at loud or reference volume levels, sadly, none of those subs is likely to be able to pressurize the room to that degree. I just want to try to make sure that you're expectations are in the right place

But I can fully appreciate having a budget and sticking to it! The SVSound PB12-NSD is the most capable out of that bunch. It also has an advantage in that the Sledge amp is designed with the sorts of limiters and filters that allow it to be cranked past where it can actually play, but the sub will simply control itself and only play as loud as it is safely able to while keeping distortion under control. In your room size, it's entirely possible that you could go beyond the output capabilities of any of these $750 and below subs, so this is a nice "safety" net to have, because you'll know that you can crank it as loud as you please. The SVS will never damage itself or even so much as go into high distortion. It'll just politely play as loud as it possibly can, and no further

The FV12 is similar in that it will also politely stop trying to play any louder than it can, but it also can't play as loud or quite as low as the PB12-NSD. The price reflects that somewhat, and if you're able to afford the PB12-NSD, you'll get a little bit more out of it vs. the FV12, which in your room, you might honestly need/use.

The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus is no slouch, but again, the PB12-NSD is able to play a bit lower and a bit louder. The LFM-1 Plus has "soft clipping" so it's protected from the worst type of amp problem that would be likely to cause damage. But the LFM-1 Plus CAN be driven into high distortion or even bottomed out in extreme cases. It's simply enough to just gradually turn up the volume yourself until you start to notice signs of stress. Make a note of that volume level and never turn it higher! It's by no means the end of the world But the SVSound and Rythmik offer a little more piece of mind. There can sometimes be very brief transients that are WAY louder than the rest of the content, and those can sometimes make a subwoofer bottom out unexpectedly. There's also always the chance that someone turns the volume higher by mistake or that something is recorded with higher levels than expected. That stuff is rare though. It's not really a reason to avoid the LFM-1 Plus or anything. But I do expect that you'll be hitting the upper limits with any of these subs. So it's nice to be able to turn things up as loud as you please and get absolutely every last drop of output out of your sub

So yeah, I'd recommend the PB12-NSD out of that bunch, given your room size. Again, don't expect reference playback levels. A 12" sub with a 400 Watt amp can only play so loud! But at least it will play to its absolute maximum with grace and control and protection. And in terms of output and extension, it's the most capable out of the group, even though it's not a big difference. But in your case, every little bit is gonna help

 

[FirstReflection]

Oh shoot. Just noticed you had listed the LFM-1 EX, not the Plus

The EX is closer to really being neck and neck with the PB12-NSD in terms of output. It'll even get a bit louder at certain frequencies. It didn't measure quite as linearly according to Josh Ricci and Audioholics. But it's by no means an inaccurate sounding sub or anything!

Yeah, that's basically a toss up in my book. You can't go "wrong" with either. But yeah, the PB12-NSD and LFM-1 EX would be the two top contenders in your list there.

Sorry I misread it earlier

 

[hanfrac]

Thanks. I'm coming from a 10" Axiom sub that has died. I don't play particularly loud and don't expect reference performance. In fact, my wife may revolt if a new sub is significantly louder/more powerful than the Axiom, which was too much for her (of course, I'm getting a louder, more powerful one - I want to make a good buy now).

I'm just trying to get some decent grunt for my money and an meaningful upgrade from the dead Axiom.

It looks like the Outlaw is in my future.

 

[NDyse10]

I just got an email from FedEx. My sub has been delivered and is currently sitting in my living room for me to tinker with for the rest of the day.