Sub Recommendations

[NDyse10]

I am currently in the market for a new subwoofer. My budget ranges from $500 -$800ish. I am willing to go a bit higher if that extra money will get me something a lot better.

In terms of use I use my system about 70% music to 30% movies, but plan to and am starting to watch many more so it is more like 50/50. I enjoy tight accurate bass, and I listen to pretty much anything but mainly rock, rap and bands such as the Script. To be honest, I am not entirely sure on the room size, but it isn't huge but it is an apartment and I will be moving from place to place for a while so don't take that into consideration too much.

I have been doing a lot of research on my own and have been looking at brands such as Rythmik, Epik and SVS. Some of the particular models I have been most interested include:

Rythimk Fv12
Rythmik F12
Epik Empire
SVS PB12-NSD

I would love to hear people's opinions on those subs I mentioned or if people have other recommendations.

Thanks

 

[robc1976]

I have this sub (A5-350) and it is a absolute beast...great 15" sub, if you want it even better put a O-audio plate amp in it...when you order the sub from elemental design just have them build it without the plate amp and with a 10 3/4 X 9" cut out get the O-audio plate amp and you will have some seriously awesome bass. I have 2 of these but honestly 1 of these pressured my 28' X 28' foot room with the gain at 25%. ED also sells a subdude that perfectly fits this sub and I HIGHLY suggest it!

Here is the sub: ( when looking at the price knock off $200.00 becaause you will get a after market plate amp).

Elemental Designs: Car Stereo, Home Speakers, Electronics


Here is the plate amp:

O Audio - 500W BASH Subwoofer Amplifier

Isolation pad:

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_126&products_id=945

 

[FirstReflection]

Room size really is the biggie. In an apartment, it's highly unlikely that you're going to need massively loud output though. Even if your apartment is physically large enough to make use of it, I doubt the neighbors would be too pleased

Decoupling your subwoofer is going to be very important in an apartment! What good is a nice sub if it gets you nothing but complaints and you can't even use it, right? So factor in $50 for an Auralex GRAMMA isolation riser. You can pick them up at Amazon or Sweetwater.com.

There are a number of good choices in your budget range and for the content that you say you listen to.

The SVSound PB12-NSD (or the $20 less expensive PC12-NSD cylinder version) stands out in the under $800 price range as being one of the most capable in terms of sheer output and also one of the least expensive subs to truly deliver 20Hz output that is about equally as loud as the rest of the frequencies above 20Hz. If you really want to dig down for some of those action/fantasy/sci-fi movies, or you want to play organ music or electronically generated music with synthesized bass notes, then the "entry level" SVSound NSD ported subs are very good candidates to consider. One other really nice thing about SVSound's subs is that the new "Sledge" DSP amps that they are using are really a cut above, and make the subwoofer essentially unbreakable and incapable of producing high distortion. Crank the volume all you want. SVSound's subs will simply play as loud as they possibly can without going into high, audible distortion. But they won't play any louder. And thus, you never run the risk of damage or bad noise. It's an especially great feature if you move to a much larger space in the future where you can really crank the volume

On the low end of your price range, the Rythmik FV12 is easily my favorite $500 sub. It is the least expensive sub out there that really doesn't have any obvious weaknesses. It has good extension to just below 25Hz. It plays clean and tight and accurate. And similar to the SVSound subs, it's basically impossible to break or drive into high distortion. Really well engineered. It isn't capable of the same output as the PB/PC12-NSD, nor can it reach right down to 20Hz with quite the same authority. So that's what the extra $200 or so (I'm factoring in shipping, which is included for SVSound, but about $60 for the Rythmik FV12) gets you when you go from the Rythmik to the SVS

In between those two, you've got a few other great options in the HSU VTF-2 MK4, Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, Outlaw LFM-1 EX and HSU VTF-3 MK4 (listed in order of price from $550 up to $700).

Outlaw's subs were designed with considerably input from Dr. Hsu, so the performance between Outlaw and HSU subs are very close. Dr. Hsu makes extremely good use of "off the shelf" parts and very good engineering and design to create accurate, controlled sounding subs that perform very, very well for their modest asking prices. I'm a big fan of the HSU VTF-3 series. Do make note of the physical size though. They are BIG

The VTF-2 and LFM-1 Plus play in the same ballpark as the Rythmik FV12. They are all much more similar to each other than they are different. I personally like the FV12 just a touch better because it's $50 less expensive, plays just a couple Hz lower, and gives up nothing in the other important areas of transient response and accuracy. The LFM-1 Plus is a champ in sheer output though. It is essentially the exact same sub as the old HSU VTF-3 MK2, but at a $550 price point instead of $700, which is just amazing.

The LFM-1 EX and VTF-3 MK4 are step up models - and the higher price reflects that. Here you have subs that are getting very close to the SVSound PB12-NSD - trading minute advantages back and forth. The LFM-1 EX isn't quite as linear, but it's got plenty of 20Hz oomph. The VTF-3 MK4 is perhaps the most balanced out of the lot, but there's its physical size to consider and it's somewhat different side-mounted driver position. And both the LFM-1 EX and VTF-3 MK4 CAN be driven into high distortion or even bottoming out the driver with high enough playback levels - something the SVSound's DSP "Sledge" amp won't ever allow.

If you want to take up the least amount of floor space, the SVS PC12-NSD cylinder is unmatched. By being a tall tube rather than a squat box, the PC12-NSD cylinder takes up very little floor space. And if you hate the height, or want to hide your sub behind a couch, you can place the cylinder on its side with absolutely no problems, at which point it is only 16" high, since that is the diameter of the sub!

So - my personal top choices with your budget would be the SVSound PB or PC12-NSD, followed closely by the HSU VTF-3 MK4 if you can manage its LARGE size. The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus is an output champ if you want the lower $550 price tag. And if you just want to keep the price at a minimum while getting "no obvious compromise" performance, there is no better $500 sub than the Rythmik FV12.

In so far as Epik goes - personally, I'm not a fan. I don't like the amplifiers that they use. And the driver quality is necessarily a little bit lower because Epik is using two drivers while keeping the price of their subs very low. Don't get me wrong, Epik's are NOT "bad" subs". But their focus is on deep extension and they're willing to compromise in the areas of distortion and cleanliness of the sound in order to get there. My biggest problem with their sound is a lack of delineation. I find that bass notes tend to "run into" each other. I just don't get the separation of notes that an HSU/Outlaw, Rythmik or SVSound sub offers for a similar price.

Elemental Designs (eD) is another sub maker who favors deep extension and slam over "tight" sound - at least with their ported subs.

Personally, I feel that there are more than enough choices that I really like in this price range that I don't feel there is any need to compromise on any metric. An HSU VTF-3 MK4 or SVSound PB/PC12-NSD would definitely be my choice with your budget and taste in content. I know those two are towards the top of your budget, but in cases like this - where the competition is fierce and the extra money really is going into higher quality components and design - you genuinely do get what you pay for.

And again, be sure to decouple what ever sub you get. Avoid that structure-borne sound transmission and you'll have much happier neighbors who aren't being bothered by the "thump, thump, thump" that we all suffer and know all too well!

I hope that's helpful to you. And again, I'm not "hating" on Epik or eD - they're just not my personal cup o' tea, but there are many, many happy buyers of both, so this is purely just one man's opinion

Best of luck in your decision! The very good news is, no matter which sub you get out of this selection, there really is no "bad" choice. They're all very good. I'm just trying to convey the slight differences that might make you prefer one out of the bunch

 

[theJman]

How fast are you able to type? Your replies are some of the most detailed and elaborate I've seen, and you provide them on a fairly consistent basis. Very good stuff.

 

[NDyse10]

Room size really is the biggie. In an apartment, it's highly unlikely that you're going to need massively loud output though. Even if your apartment is physically large enough to make use of it, I doubt the neighbors would be too pleased

Decoupling your subwoofer is going to be very important in an apartment! What good is a nice sub if it gets you nothing but complaints and you can't even use it, right? So factor in $50 for an Auralex GRAMMA isolation riser. You can pick them up at Amazon or Sweetwater.com.

There are a number of good choices in your budget range and for the content that you say you listen to.

The SVSound PB12-NSD (or the $20 less expensive PC12-NSD cylinder version) stands out in the under $800 price range as being one of the most capable in terms of sheer output and also one of the least expensive subs to truly deliver 20Hz output that is about equally as loud as the rest of the frequencies above 20Hz. If you really want to dig down for some of those action/fantasy/sci-fi movies, or you want to play organ music or electronically generated music with synthesized bass notes, then the "entry level" SVSound NSD ported subs are very good candidates to consider. One other really nice thing about SVSound's subs is that the new "Sledge" DSP amps that they are using are really a cut above, and make the subwoofer essentially unbreakable and incapable of producing high distortion. Crank the volume all you want. SVSound's subs will simply play as loud as they possibly can without going into high, audible distortion. But they won't play any louder. And thus, you never run the risk of damage or bad noise. It's an especially great feature if you move to a much larger space in the future where you can really crank the volume

On the low end of your price range, the Rythmik FV12 is easily my favorite $500 sub. It is the least expensive sub out there that really doesn't have any obvious weaknesses. It has good extension to just below 25Hz. It plays clean and tight and accurate. And similar to the SVSound subs, it's basically impossible to break or drive into high distortion. Really well engineered. It isn't capable of the same output as the PB/PC12-NSD, nor can it reach right down to 20Hz with quite the same authority. So that's what the extra $200 or so (I'm factoring in shipping, which is included for SVSound, but about $60 for the Rythmik FV12) gets you when you go from the Rythmik to the SVS

In between those two, you've got a few other great options in the HSU VTF-2 MK4, Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, Outlaw LFM-1 EX and HSU VTF-3 MK4 (listed in order of price from $550 up to $700).

Outlaw's subs were designed with considerably input from Dr. Hsu, so the performance between Outlaw and HSU subs are very close. Dr. Hsu makes extremely good use of "off the shelf" parts and very good engineering and design to create accurate, controlled sounding subs that perform very, very well for their modest asking prices. I'm a big fan of the HSU VTF-3 series. Do make note of the physical size though. They are BIG

The VTF-2 and LFM-1 Plus play in the same ballpark as the Rythmik FV12. They are all much more similar to each other than they are different. I personally like the FV12 just a touch better because it's $50 less expensive, plays just a couple Hz lower, and gives up nothing in the other important areas of transient response and accuracy. The LFM-1 Plus is a champ in sheer output though. It is essentially the exact same sub as the old HSU VTF-3 MK2, but at a $550 price point instead of $700, which is just amazing.

The LFM-1 EX and VTF-3 MK4 are step up models - and the higher price reflects that. Here you have subs that are getting very close to the SVSound PB12-NSD - trading minute advantages back and forth. The LFM-1 EX isn't quite as linear, but it's got plenty of 20Hz oomph. The VTF-3 MK4 is perhaps the most balanced out of the lot, but there's its physical size to consider and it's somewhat different side-mounted driver position. And both the LFM-1 EX and VTF-3 MK4 CAN be driven into high distortion or even bottoming out the driver with high enough playback levels - something the SVSound's DSP "Sledge" amp won't ever allow.

If you want to take up the least amount of floor space, the SVS PC12-NSD cylinder is unmatched. By being a tall tube rather than a squat box, the PC12-NSD cylinder takes up very little floor space. And if you hate the height, or want to hide your sub behind a couch, you can place the cylinder on its side with absolutely no problems, at which point it is only 16" high, since that is the diameter of the sub!

So - my personal top choices with your budget would be the SVSound PB or PC12-NSD, followed closely by the HSU VTF-3 MK4 if you can manage its LARGE size. The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus is an output champ if you want the lower $550 price tag. And if you just want to keep the price at a minimum while getting "no obvious compromise" performance, there is no better $500 sub than the Rythmik FV12.

In so far as Epik goes - personally, I'm not a fan. I don't like the amplifiers that they use. And the driver quality is necessarily a little bit lower because Epik is using two drivers while keeping the price of their subs very low. Don't get me wrong, Epik's are NOT "bad" subs". But their focus is on deep extension and they're willing to compromise in the areas of distortion and cleanliness of the sound in order to get there. My biggest problem with their sound is a lack of delineation. I find that bass notes tend to "run into" each other. I just don't get the separation of notes that an HSU/Outlaw, Rythmik or SVSound sub offers for a similar price.

Elemental Designs (eD) is another sub maker who favors deep extension and slam over "tight" sound - at least with their ported subs.

Personally, I feel that there are more than enough choices that I really like in this price range that I don't feel there is any need to compromise on any metric. An HSU VTF-3 MK4 or SVSound PB/PC12-NSD would definitely be my choice with your budget and taste in content. I know those two are towards the top of your budget, but in cases like this - where the competition is fierce and the extra money really is going into higher quality components and design - you genuinely do get what you pay for.

And again, be sure to decouple what ever sub you get. Avoid that structure-borne sound transmission and you'll have much happier neighbors who aren't being bothered by the "thump, thump, thump" that we all suffer and know all too well!

I hope that's helpful to you. And again, I'm not "hating" on Epik or eD - they're just not my personal cup o' tea, but there are many, many happy buyers of both, so this is purely just one man's opinion

Best of luck in your decision! The very good news is, no matter which sub you get out of this selection, there really is no "bad" choice. They're all very good. I'm just trying to convey the slight differences that might make you prefer one out of the bunch

I appreciate the detailed response.

The SVS PB12-NSD is very good for home theater, but how will it do on music? I have been very interested in Rythmik because I have heard glowing reviews about how good their subs are for music. When I listen to my music I don't want the bass to "overpower" but compliment if that makes sense. If the SVS is going to be too powerful then I don't think that will be for me. Have you ever heard the Rythmik F12? What are your thoughts about that? The one attractive thing about the SVS is that shipping is free so it would actually be a fair amount under the Rythmik F12.

Also, just curious how do you "install" that decoupler?

 

[theJman]

The SVS PB12-NSD is very good for home theater, but how will it do on music? I have been very interested in Rythmik because I have heard glowing reviews about how good their subs are for music. When I listen to my music I don't want the bass to "overpower" but compliment if that makes sense. If the SVS is going to be too powerful then I don't think that will be for me. Have you ever heard the Rythmik F12? What are your thoughts about that? The one attractive thing about the SVS is that shipping is free so it would actually be a fair amount under the Rythmik F12.

Most of the comments I see about SVS products include how detailed and articulate they tend to be. Those are qualities that lend themselves brilliantly to music reproduction, so I don't imagine you would be disappointed.

Provided you don't have some gargantuan (read: far too large) subwoofer the only way it should really overpower is if it's tuned improperly. Barring that, it should just produce the sounds that are in the source material, in relative proportion to the other frequencies.

Also, just curious how do you "install" that decoupler?

Generally these are pads/mats the subwoofer is placed on, so there's no installation per se.

 

[NDyse10]

Most of the comments I see about SVS products include how detailed and articulate they tend to be. Those are qualities that lend themselves brilliantly to music reproduction, so I don't imagine you would be disappointed.

Provided you don't have some gargantuan (read: far too large) subwoofer the only way it should really overpower is if it's tuned improperly. Barring that, it should just produce the sounds that are in the source material, in relative proportion to the other frequencies.



Generally these are pads/mats the subwoofer is placed on, so there's no installation per se.

Maybe the SVS is the way to go then. It is cheaper than the Rythmik F12 and seems to be better for home theater. Free shipping makes it more intriguing as well. Any one else have other opinions on the musical quality of the SVS PB12-NSD

Also regarding the decoupler I hadn't ever heard of it so thank you. Seems quite easy!

 

[timoteo]

I wouldnt worry about having an overpowering sub. Its always good to have more sub than you need. You can always turn it down to your taste. The less you have to push a sub the less distortion you get. Plus if you ever move like you mentioned its good to have a sub that can play in a large area.

So id recommend getting the best sub you can AFFORD!

If you get a sub thats rated for a medium room & put it in a medium room, most likely you'll be pushing it near its limits (depending on listening habits of course) what i try to do is place a sub rated for a large room into a medium room. Headroom goes a long way! Thats just my recommendation.

The subs you are considering are all very capable. Rythmik makes a great sub. HSU, SVS & Outlaw all classed just as great. They each have their comparable models.

The decoupler is just a platform you set the sub on top of. Its an MDF piece wrapped in felt with acoustical foam glued to the bottom to absorb vibrations. They work very well. They can be a little expensive if you have muliple large subs. I make my own with the EXACT materials. I found a foam shop near me. If you only need 1 then buying one is good. But if you need multiples you can save a lot going DIY. What would have cost me $160 for the 2 i needed only cost me $45 to make. Just a little tip.

For you id be looking at:
HSU VTF3 MK4
SVS PB/PC 12 NSD
Rythmik FV12
Outlaw LFM1 -EX

 

[NDyse10]

I wouldnt worry about having an overpowering sub. Its always good to have more sub than you need. You can always turn it down to your taste. The less you have to push a sub the less distortion you get. Plus if you ever move like you mentioned its good to have a sub that can play in a large area.

So id recommend getting the best sub you can AFFORD!

If you get a sub thats rated for a medium room & put it in a medium room, most likely you'll be pushing it near its limits (depending on listening habits of course) what i try to do is place a sub rated for a large room into a medium room. Headroom goes a long way! Thats just my recommendation.

The subs you are considering are all very capable. Rythmik makes a great sub. HSU, SVS & Outlaw all classed just as great. They each have their comparable models.

The decoupler is just a platform you set the sub on top of. Its an MDF piece wrapped in felt with acoustical foam glued to the bottom to absorb vibrations. They work very well. They can be a little expensive if you have muliple large subs. I make my own with the EXACT materials. I found a foam shop near me. If you only need 1 then buying one is good. But if you need multiples you can save a lot going DIY. What would have cost me $160 for the 2 i needed only cost me $45 to make. Just a little tip.

For you id be looking at:
HSU VTF3 MK4
SVS PB/PC 12 NSD
Rythmik FV12
Outlaw LFM1 -EX

I guess it is a good thing, for the most part, that you really cannot go wrong when choosing between these brands, but that is also the problem. It makes it very difficult to make a decision on which one to actually pick. Right now I would say the SVS PB12-NSD is the front runner because it will be a bit less expensive due to free shipping. I haven't looked much at the HSU VTF3 Mk4, but maybe I will have to expand that in my research. Are all of these decouplers one size fit all or are there different sizes? It seems that will be a necessity so I can use my new sub to its full potential.

 

[FirstReflection]

Yup, yup, yup!

First, the Auralex GRAMMA, Great GRAMMA and SubDude are all just different sizes of the same thing - which is a carpet-wrapped MDF platform on top of some acoustic foam, exactly like timoteo described. You certainly can build them yourself if you find the right sort of foam. But at about $50, I'm willing to just buy them since I'm not a DIY guy and it'd probably take me longer to make than it's worth to me

Anywho, certainly a "must have" in an apartment, IMO. Very easy way to cut down on the bass that "leaks" into other apartments. And, as the others here have said, all you do is place the SubDude/GRAMMA on the ground and put your subwoofer on top of it! Nothing to it Just be sure to get the correct size for your subwoofer. The 15" x 15" SubDude works perfectly for the SVSound cylinder subs. And the platform can be smaller than the subwoofer UNLESS the subwoofer is a downward-firing box where there MUST be clearance between the bottom of the sub and the platform. The SVSound cylinder subs have their own bass already in order to give the downward-facing driver clearance, so that's no problem. But subs like the VTF-2 MK4 and Outlaw LFM-1 Plus and LFM-1 EX have downward-facing drivers that are flush with the bottom of the sub's box, so you MUST use a GRAMMA that is large enough so that the "feet" of the subwoofer will be on the GRAMMA. For subs with front-facing or side-facing drivers - like the Rythmik FV12, SVSound PB12-NSD or HSU VTF-3 MK4 - the SubDude or GRAMMA can be smaller and you can simply put the flat bottom of the subwoofer's box directly on the platform - no problem

In this price range, the SVSound NSD ported subs are basically on par when it comes to how articulate, delineated and "tight" their sound is with the very good competition from Rythmik and HSU/Outlaw. The NSD sub plays flatter to 20Hz and has less distortion than some of them too - so it's pretty much a couple of slight, but noteable advantages and no disadvantages. It is the most expensive though (although shipping can change that with some of the competing subs).

Like I say, for your price range and usage, it'd be my first choice.

The sealed subs - like the Rythmik F12 - in this price range tend to do what you would expect from a sealed sub, which is that they certainly sound nice and clean and tight for music, but they start to roll off up around 40-50Hz. They can't produce nearly the same output as a ported PB/PC12-NSD or HSU VTF-3 MK4 in the really low 20-30Hz range. They also produce higher distortion and don't have as much "headroom" in the low bass either.

Whether or not a subwoofer sounds "tight" for music is really all about control over the driver. While any ported sub will get some resonance at the tuning frequency of the port (that's how it amplifies the deep bass output afterall!), we're much less prone to being able to hear a slight delay in the decay of the sound when it's way down at 20 or 25Hz. With a sealed sub, having that trapped volume of air in the box behind the driver gives it a natural mechanical advantage in controlling the movement of the driver. The trapped air is essentially a "shock absorber" system that dampens the movement of the driver. But it's also entirely up to the driver, and the driver alone, to create all of the air movement. So in the really deep bass, that poor driver is trying to move like crazy AND it's working against the trapped volume of air behind it. So you get way higher distortion because the driver is working so hard, and it can't play nearly as loud. For music, this is much less of a concern because very few music recordings play much lower than about 35Hz at the deepest. But for movies, you can end up losing quite a bit of the really deep stuff.

There's a phenomenon called "room gain" where the sound that reflects off of the walls, ceiling and floor basically bounces around your room and makes things sound louder than if you were out in a wide open field. This "room gain" tends to help boost the deepest bass. So if you get just the right balance of room gain, it can sort of compensate for a sealed subs lack of deep bass output. But this is very hard to predict and it is unique in every room. Personally, I much prefer to have a subwoofer that can produce even, linear bass all by itself. In other words, stick it in a wide open field and it will be just as loud at 20Hz as it is at 40Hz and 80Hz. Then, when you put it in a room, all of those reflections off of the walls, ceiling and floor will change what you actually hear at your seat. A sub that measures perfectly flat out in a wide open field, will NOT measure flat at your seat in an actual room - that's just the way things go. But now, what you can do, is just use some EQ to make the response in your room, at your seat, flat again. And when you are using EQ, you only ever want to cut down the boosts and peaks that are created by the room's reflections! You never want to try and boost or "fill in" the low spots because you're just asking the subwoofer to work much harder - and if the low spots are due to cancellations from those reflections running into each other, no amount of boosting the output is going to help! Those reflections are still going to cancel each other, no matter how loud you make the output!

So I much prefer to start with flat and trim down any big boosts created by the room, rather than cross my fingers and hope that my room will boost just the right frequencies for a sub that can't produce them loud enough on its own. A sealed sub in the under $800 range can be great for music! If you're not worried about the super deep below-40Hz stuff, a sealed sub can still sound a little bit tighter thanks to that trapped volume of air. But if a ported sub has really good control over the driver - the way the SVSound, Rythmik and HSU ported subs do - there won't be much of a difference in that 40Hz and up range. But there will be a very big difference below 40Hz where the port is helping the driver.

So, long story short, if you go with the SVSound PB or PC12-NSD or the HSU VTF-3 MK4, you don't have to worry! You will "have it all" as they say

Are there even more controlled, even cleaner subs that can play louder and lower? Yes. But they cost significantly more and that's exactly what you'd be paying for! For under $800, you can get very good sound for both music and movies. Especially in an apartment where you can't really crank the volume up to insane levels anyway. The SVSound PB or PC12-NSD certainly won't disappoint you for music quality if you compare it to the other subs in its price range. And for movies, it has an edge over the competition, so that makes it my top pick - plus the fact that you can't break it or make it distort if you take it with you to a much larger room in the future

 

[shadyJ]

It should be mentioned that a gramma or any other bass isolation pad won't do anything if the sub is on a concrete floor. The flooring makes a differences, the more solid the flooring, the less the isolation pad will help. Another thing you can do instead of buying a entire pad to set your sub on is just get some polyurethane blocks and set the feet of the sub on those, polyurethane is the soft kind of foam, a lot like that memory foam. That is basically all a gramma is doing, resting the sub on some foam which absorbs its vibration. Polyurethane blocks will be a lot cheaper than a gramma pad, which, at $50, is a bit expensive, whereas you might already have some polyurethane foam as shipping foam.

If you are living in an apartment and move from place to place, I would recommend a small, light sub which is easy to move. You might want to stay away from deep bass altogether, as that travels through walls very easily, so a sealed sub might be best. You might look at the SVS SB12 or Rythmik F12. Something else you might consider is getting two small subs, like a couple of these or these 10" sealed subs, and place each next to your front left and right speakers. They won't give you deep bass, but a sealed 12" won't either, and they should sound very nice, and I think two would probably sound better than a single sealed 12". A similar setup but with a bit more deeper bass output would be a couple of these or these. Anyway, two light subs will be easier to carry, easier to position, easier to ship, easier to resell, and would have all the extra advantages of a multiple sub setup which include more room coverage, better FR throughout the room, no localization, and the ability to raise the crossover without localizing the sub. The only problem is they won't do deep bass, with the sealed 10" subs rolling off in the 40 hz range (I'm guessing), and the ported 10" subs rolling off in the 30s, but, like I said before, deep bass in an apartment seems like a bad idea.

 

[timoteo]

I'd have to politely disagree with ShadyJ.

1. When somebody moves to a different living space, you already have to move fridges, sofas, washing machines etc. Your already going to have help & even a very large sub like a PB13Ultra or VTF-15H is not hard for 2 guys to move. You wouldnt buy a smaller fridge just because you worry about moving it some day. If the sub fits & its not an aesthetic issue then dont worry about having to move it. If you need to slide it around, just buy those $10 discs to put under the feet.

2. Again, being able to use the DEEP bass doesnt mean you HAVE to crank up the volume. But having the option to go lower & louder is much better for future proofing (in case u move to a larger place).

I used to live in an apt. When i got a SubDude for the old sub i had then i called the tenant below me on the phone. I played a scen from KingKong, once with the SubDude & once without. He told me there was a noticable difference WITH the SubDude. He said the bass sounded more muffled, further away & his wall heater didnt rattle. So yes its very helpful for your fellow tenants plus it cleans up the bass YOU hear as well. If you only need 1 platform then yes just buy one from Auralex. Dont put your sub on packing foam cubes. Its a BIG misconception that you wont benifit from a platform when you have a concrete slab home. Is the benifit as much? No but yes there still are benifits! Concrete transfers sound & vibrations as well.

The problem with bass is that you start to get used to what you have. At first your blown away with good bass. But MOST people start to slowly turn their subs up to get "a little more". With a single or even dual 10" subs, they arent going to get you very far for movies. Music will sound great but even rap, dubstep, electronica etc need at least a 12" do be done justice. Just as FR said, a ported sub that is designed right will sound tight. Its no longer so black/white when it comes to sealed vs ported. I used to think id NEVER buy ported because of what i had heard up to that point. Now i dont know if id ever buy sealed, at least in a home theater environment. Plus with the variable tuning frequecy you CAN run a lot of these subs sealed if you like!!!

SVS PB12 NSD
Or
HSU VTF-3 MK4

These will do you right!!

 

[FirstReflection]

I too must completely disagree with shadyJ about decoupling on concrete. Decoupling can make a very noticeable difference on a concrete floor. Concrete is FAR from inert. Concrete is generally denser and more massive, so it does take more energy to get it to move and shake. But once it does start to move, it transmits energy VERY well. Ever see that film of the bridge that got caught in a cross wind and starts rolling like a wave? Yeah. That's concrete. That stuff can most certainly move!

Beyond just the physics and the theory, there's my own personal experience and the experiences of many other people. The first cue was when I was still living with my parents and had a theater set up in the basement. Concrete foundation. Typical construction. Having the GRAMMA in place beneath my HSU VTF-3 MK2 made a very noticeable difference and improvement on that concrete floor. The small window in the room rattled much less with the GRAMMA in place. The overall sound inside the theater itself was "tighter", with fewer resonances. And upstairs, that's where there was the biggest difference with the GRAMMA very noticeably reducing the thumping of bass in other rooms of the house.

A friend of mine set up a theater in a basement as well. Concrete again. He had a front projector mounted to the ceiling and he was having a problem with the image shaking on the screen every time his subwoofer played. I told him to try a GRAMMA, which he did. That eliminated most of the image shaking on the screen - save for a very few frequencies that simply happen to be the resonant frequencies of the room, which the GRAMMA can't do anything about since those are caused by the sound travelling through the air, not the structure.

I've lived in 4 different apartments now - all of them concrete highrises. Much like timoteo, I talk to my neighbors - both on the sides and the neighbors above and below me. I try to get a handle on the maximum volume I can use before they start to hear by theater playing. In one particular case, I had very thick carpet - thick enough that it actually made the GRAMMA just a little bit wobbly, so I tried things without it. My flat-bottomed subs didn't have any issues, but the subs that had "feet" got me lower volume levels before the neighbors said they could hear the bass. So I put the GRAMMA back in place. Voila! Back to the sort of volume levels that the flat-bottomed subs were at.

It is simply not the case that concrete is inert. You need to decouple on a concrete floor just as much as you do on a wood or any other type of construction. The only time the GRAMMA won't make a difference is when there is already some form of decoupling in place - such as the very thick carpet and carpet pad with a flat-bottomed sub that has no "feet" or "spikes".

And while we're talking about "feet" and "spikes", I've seen many people mistakenly say that spikes somehow decouple a speaker or subwoofer. That is completely wrong. It is the exact opposite! It is simple physics. You have the weight of the speaker or sub acting as a downward force. When you have spikes or other small "feet", all of that downward force is now acting upon only four very tiny surface areas! The average force at each point of contact is now much, much higher than if you allow the force to be spread over a much greater surface area - such as the entire flat bottom of a speaker or sub. Would you rather lie on a bed of 1000 nails, or just 4 nails? Would you rather try to support your body weight for a long period of time by laying down flat, or by supporting all of your weight on just the tips of 4 fingers? Same total downward force (weight), but MUCH greater force at each point of contact if you only have 4 tiny surface areas!

So no disrespect to shadyJ, but he's simply off the mark with this one. Concrete IS generally more massive and thus, generally takes more energy in order to get it to move. But it is NOT inert and it absolutely will transmit sound. Due to being more massive, it provides better resistance to the transmission of sound than a wood structure - that's true. Most of us have been in a wood frame apartment and then been in a concrete apartment and easily noticed the difference. But most of us have also still been able to hear bass thumping away in a concrete apartment as well. It's typically not as loud as if the very same volume were being played in a wood frame apartment building. But we can still hear the "thump, thump, thump" none-the-less! Decoupling reduces that further - sometimes even eliminates it. So a GRAMMA is still very much worth it in a concrete building.

 

[FirstReflection]

One other point of disagreement:

sound doesn't travel through walls. It will travel through any openings in the walls. Things like recessed lights and electrical boxes. And, of course, any gaps around windows or doors.

Sound will penetrate any porous material to some degree. But the real reason we can hear bass so well in other rooms and other apartments in a building is not because the bass is somehow going through the wall. It is because the wall itself is the thing that is now shaking and transmitting the sound! It is structure-borne sound, rather than air-borne sound. Same thing as when you put your ear on a train track and can hear the train coming from miles and miles away. The rail itself is vibrating and transmitting the sound.

So, once again, it's the reason why decoupling is so important and effective. As to the price of a GRAMMA or SubDude - I suppose it's all relative. Personally, I'm fine with the price because I'm lazy and I don't want to put one together myself Certainly, you can decouple your subwoofer for cheaper - it's just a wee bit more effort is all. I simply recommend the Auralex GRAMMA, great GRAMMA and SubDude because they're widely available, not ridiculously expensive, and they do the job of decoupling well!

I get that quite a few people might be wary of a $50 platform made of MDF, carpet and foam. It's right in that spot where it seems like it might be one of those "snake oil tweaks" that doesn't actually do anything! There are lots of those in home theater. And it certainly doesn't help when a company like Bright Star Audio, who sells the little rubber IsoNodes that I like so much for decoupling bookshelf and wall-mounted speakers, goes and makes stupid claims about IsoNodes improving the sound of CD players and amplifiers and such. I could certainly see IsoNodes doing something for a turntable - but solid state and digital components? No way. Pure placebo and bullsh-- there!

But decoupling is a real thing and the Auralex products are the real deal. For some reason, some people I've come across on message boards even seem angry about products like the SubDude and GRAMMA for some reason. I'm not exactly sure where that comes from. It most certainly isn't from having ever heard the difference that decoupling can make. Granted, the difference INSIDE your room, while often noteable, isn't always dramatic. But it's the difference in OTHER rooms where it's really obvious that decoupling decreases structure-borne sound transmission.

Is $50 a lot or a little for that? I don't know. I don't consider it a lot. Other people do. But you don't have to buy Auralex. It's just that not many other companies are even making such products, so Auralex ends up being the defacto choice. Elemental Designs has decoupling risers. If you need a slightly different size, definitely check out edesignaudio.com . Prices are about the same though, and the eD platforms seem to be a bit taller too.

Anywho, if you're really not sure, just buy from a place where you can easily return if you don't think it's worth it. Talk to your neighbors though - 'cause they're the ones who are really going to benefit the most. I mean, you will benefit from being able to properly enjoy your sub! But it's the neighbors who are going to complain, so making the bass quieter for them while keeping it at a reasonably loud volume for you is what it's all about! So talk to them. Try things with a decoupling platform and without. I think you'll find that $50 is well worth it

 

[NDyse10]

Much thanks to timoteo and FirstReflection for their very detailed responses.

I guess I made a bit of a misleading statement with saying it is an apartment. In all actuality what I live in is a single small building that looks like a motel. There is my unit and then an unit to my right. There are also a series of similar buildings around me. I just say apartment as that is what I classify it as. Either way, I fully plan on getting a decoupler because I do often worry if my listening is bothering others and it seems that this will help.

I have a few weeks until I will have all the money I need to make my purchase so in the meantime I guess I just have to wait and decide. Also, a dumb question that I am fairly sure I know the answer to, but do the HSU and the SVS PB12-NSD both have LFE connections on the back? That is what I use now on my terrible Onkyo sub and would prefer to connect it like that, as that is the only way I know how.

 

[NDyse10]

Also one more question.

FirstRelection you mentioned earlier about the SVS PB12-NSD being "unbreakable" because of the amp it used, but you mentioned how the HSU could be prone to this. Is the only way that I could damage the HSU if I was listening to it at crazy volume or no? If the HSU has a known problem then that would lean me towards SVS, but right now I cannot make a decision for sure. It would be great if you could elaborate on that. I really appreciate the time you are taking for me (and others). I am just stepping into the audio world and it is people such as yourself that make that transition easier.

 

[FirstReflection]

No prob!

We call your type of building a "row house" up here in Canada. As in, houses in a row Regardless, you are physically attached to another home and in close proximity to others, so structure-borne sound is most certainly a concern. Short of going whole hog and getting into some serious renovation and sound proofing, the two best things you can do are: decouple anything that vibrates - so that's your speakers and your subwoofer especially - and seal up any holes and gaps in your adjoining walls. Electrical receptacles, light switches, lights, frames...anywhere that a hole or gap has been cut in the surface; those are prime locations for sound to leak just like water would. A couple tubes of acoustic caulk from your local hardware store is all you need and you can seal up all those holes and seams for very little money and prevent as much sound from travelling as possible without getting into more serious sound proofing measures such as installing specialty "sound proof" drywall (such as QuietRock) or making your own sound proof drywall system by applying QuietGlue or GreenGlue to your existing drywall and hanging a second layer of drywall over the existing to create a "sandwich" of sound dampening glue in the middle. And beyond that, you get into tearing down the existing drywall and making a double stud structure, adding sound dampening insulation, then hanging QuietRock or using a resilient channel or Genie Clip system with standard drywall and glue. In case you can't tell, I LOVE sound proofing But it takes time, money and decreases your floor space and ceiling height. So by FAR the easiest first steps are to just decouple your sound sources with simple platforms like the Auralex GRAMMA and seal up your small gaps and joints with acoustic caulk

Both the SVSound PB12-NSD and HSU VTF-3 MK4 are very easy to connect. The HSU offers more connection options, but with both, you can certainly just run your single RCA "subwoofer" cable from the LFE/SUB output of your receiver to the "Left/LFE" input on the back of the sub and away you go! With the VTF-3 MK4, you also have the option to run speaker wire as your connection, which comes in handy if all you have is an old stereo receiver with no outputs other than the speaker wire connections for the front Left/Right speakers. For any modern receiver though, you just have the LFE/SUB output and you're good to go!

It's certainly easy to agonize over a purchase like this. I can sympathize completely The best thing to know and to keep telling yourself though is that you cannot really make a "bad" choice here if you stick with the options that we've mentioned here. And there are other good subs that we haven't even mentioned too! But you should feel confident with the ones you're considering because they really are good.

The HSU and Outlaw subs have a "soft clipping" protection circuit. If you try to make them play so loud that the BASH amplifier literally runs out of power and "clips" the peaks of the signal, you won't get the horrible and frightening sound that a "hard clipped" signal would make. And that's the most likely thing to cause damage to the subwoofer, so at least you're protected from that! But the sub is basically free to keep getting louder and louder until the amp runs out of power. When a really short burst comes along, the amp has enough power to make the driver of the subwoofer move further than it is physically able. That is called "bottoming out" the driver, and, as you can imagine, it's not the best idea to push the driver past its physical limits! When the sub tries to play really loud for a long time, various parts start to heat up, as you might expect, and that can make things less efficient. They're still trying to play really loud though, so you can get some pretty high distortion in a case like that.

All of these scenarios are rare. But if you move into a much larger room at some point, it's entirely possible that the sub simply won't be able to play as loud as you want it to. And if you try to make it play that loud, that's when you could potentially run into a problem. In all likelihood, you'll hear it and turn the volume down and never play things that loud ever again! So actually damaging the sub is pretty unlikely. All you have to do is gradually keep turning up the volume until you start to notice some less than clean sounds coming from the sub and you'll know that you've basically reached the limit

With the SVSound sub, they've put filters and limiters and compressors into the Sledge amp. Basically, they've extensively tested the driver and know exactly how much power it can handle. So they've programmed the amplifier to never try to push more power into the driver than either the driver can handle or the amplifier can deliver cleanly. So even if you make a mistake and absolutely crank the volume in a very large room one day, the sub won't bottom out, hard clip or even produce super high distortion. It might start to sound a little strained from higher than normal distortion. But that's about it.

Again, it's very unlikely that you'll ever run into these sorts of limits. It is NOT something I would mark against the HSU because you can drive that sub really, really hard before it starts to show signs of stress and then you'd have to push it even further in order to even potentially cause any damage. And you'd have to keep it up in a sustained fashion and basically abuse the sub. So it's no real mark against the HSU or any other modern sub. In all honesty, it's just something that allows the SVSound subs to measure really nicely in those crazy tests that reviewers like Josh Ricci run

But, there's always the outside chance that you might move to a really large room or someone might mistakenly turn all the volume settings to max one day - and should some really unlikely scenario happen, the SVS won't bat an eyelash and will simply play as loud as it possibly can and won't even attempt to play any louder. I personally like a feature like that because I like to listen at reference volume and trying to sometimes blast out 115dB peaks in the LFE channel can make a lot of subs cry uncle! The PB12-NSD won't output 115dB at 20Hz all on its own. Heck, even the PB13-Ultra doesn't quite do it. But that's in a quasi-anechoic setting - literally out in a wide open field! In an actual room, you'll normally get some "room gain" from the sound reflecting off of the walls, ceiling and floor and bouncing around, which increases the SPL. The PB12-NSD will happily blast out over 100dB though, and for most people, that's way louder than they'd ever want! If I'm going nuts though, and trying to hit reference peaks, it's nice to know that I can literally set the PB12-NSD to maximum volume on the dial and still not worry about damaging it, or even creating super high distortion! With the HSU - and the majority of other subs - I just have to do things a little more gradually is all

Best of luck in your decision! Again, you can't really go "wrong" here. Do be sure to get a real handle on the physical size of these subs though! They can easily be bigger than you imagine. Maybe build a cardboard box with the dimensions given on the websites to get a really tangible idea. With a few weeks to kill, it's a good idea since you have the time

And remember that the PC12-NSD cylinder is a great option if you need to save some space. Standing up, it's only 16 inches around. And laying down, it can be tucked under a TV or behind a couch. So don't dismiss the cylinder! It's $20 cheaper too

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Dont put your sub on packing foam cubes

Why not?
I'm sure it's better than sitting straight on the floor - or is it?

 

[timoteo]

In all fairness, i guess setting your sub on little packing foam cubes MAY help a little as far as decoupling. The main reason i said not too is because of the good chance that with the subs vibrations you could have your sub slip off one of the cubes, leading to your sub falling over & getting damaged. When i had my previous dual 12" subs, i velcro'd rubber feet to them. I didnt like the driver & PR (which was opposite side of driver) being on the sides of driver. I wanted the driver front firing & PR rear firing. But turning it that way i was able to see the amp/cables on the left side. So i put those feet on & had the amp facing the floor. However, just like the foam feet recommendation, the subs got very unstable & it made me nervious. So i didnt leave them like that. So from my experience id recommend not doing the little packing foam feet. A SubDude is only $50 so id say just include that cost with any new sub!!

Yes the subs in question are pretty large. Its a very good idea to do a cardboard mockup. I did that before i got my VTF-15H. I was able to see how large it was & was very helpful. But remember, in order for a great sub to perform well & at the same time be a good price, most of the time they are pretty large in size. But well worth the incredible bass!!!

 

[robc1976]

Room size really is the biggie. In an apartment, it's highly unlikely that you're going to need massively loud output though. Even if your apartment is physically large enough to make use of it, I doubt the neighbors would be too pleased

Decoupling your subwoofer is going to be very important in an apartment! What good is a nice sub if it gets you nothing but complaints and you can't even use it, right? So factor in $50 for an Auralex GRAMMA isolation riser. You can pick them up at Amazon or Sweetwater.com.

There are a number of good choices in your budget range and for the content that you say you listen to.

The SVSound PB12-NSD (or the $20 less expensive PC12-NSD cylinder version) stands out in the under $800 price range as being one of the most capable in terms of sheer output and also one of the least expensive subs to truly deliver 20Hz output that is about equally as loud as the rest of the frequencies above 20Hz. If you really want to dig down for some of those action/fantasy/sci-fi movies, or you want to play organ music or electronically generated music with synthesized bass notes, then the "entry level" SVSound NSD ported subs are very good candidates to consider. One other really nice thing about SVSound's subs is that the new "Sledge" DSP amps that they are using are really a cut above, and make the subwoofer essentially unbreakable and incapable of producing high distortion. Crank the volume all you want. SVSound's subs will simply play as loud as they possibly can without going into high, audible distortion. But they won't play any louder. And thus, you never run the risk of damage or bad noise. It's an especially great feature if you move to a much larger space in the future where you can really crank the volume

On the low end of your price range, the Rythmik FV12 is easily my favorite $500 sub. It is the least expensive sub out there that really doesn't have any obvious weaknesses. It has good extension to just below 25Hz. It plays clean and tight and accurate. And similar to the SVSound subs, it's basically impossible to break or drive into high distortion. Really well engineered. It isn't capable of the same output as the PB/PC12-NSD, nor can it reach right down to 20Hz with quite the same authority. So that's what the extra $200 or so (I'm factoring in shipping, which is included for SVSound, but about $60 for the Rythmik FV12) gets you when you go from the Rythmik to the SVS

In between those two, you've got a few other great options in the HSU VTF-2 MK4, Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, Outlaw LFM-1 EX and HSU VTF-3 MK4 (listed in order of price from $550 up to $700).

Outlaw's subs were designed with considerably input from Dr. Hsu, so the performance between Outlaw and HSU subs are very close. Dr. Hsu makes extremely good use of "off the shelf" parts and very good engineering and design to create accurate, controlled sounding subs that perform very, very well for their modest asking prices. I'm a big fan of the HSU VTF-3 series. Do make note of the physical size though. They are BIG

The VTF-2 and LFM-1 Plus play in the same ballpark as the Rythmik FV12. They are all much more similar to each other than they are different. I personally like the FV12 just a touch better because it's $50 less expensive, plays just a couple Hz lower, and gives up nothing in the other important areas of transient response and accuracy. The LFM-1 Plus is a champ in sheer output though. It is essentially the exact same sub as the old HSU VTF-3 MK2, but at a $550 price point instead of $700, which is just amazing.

The LFM-1 EX and VTF-3 MK4 are step up models - and the higher price reflects that. Here you have subs that are getting very close to the SVSound PB12-NSD - trading minute advantages back and forth. The LFM-1 EX isn't quite as linear, but it's got plenty of 20Hz oomph. The VTF-3 MK4 is perhaps the most balanced out of the lot, but there's its physical size to consider and it's somewhat different side-mounted driver position. And both the LFM-1 EX and VTF-3 MK4 CAN be driven into high distortion or even bottoming out the driver with high enough playback levels - something the SVSound's DSP "Sledge" amp won't ever allow.

If you want to take up the least amount of floor space, the SVS PC12-NSD cylinder is unmatched. By being a tall tube rather than a squat box, the PC12-NSD cylinder takes up very little floor space. And if you hate the height, or want to hide your sub behind a couch, you can place the cylinder on its side with absolutely no problems, at which point it is only 16" high, since that is the diameter of the sub!

So - my personal top choices with your budget would be the SVSound PB or PC12-NSD, followed closely by the HSU VTF-3 MK4 if you can manage its LARGE size. The Outlaw LFM-1 Plus is an output champ if you want the lower $550 price tag. And if you just want to keep the price at a minimum while getting "no obvious compromise" performance, there is no better $500 sub than the Rythmik FV12.

In so far as Epik goes - personally, I'm not a fan. I don't like the amplifiers that they use. And the driver quality is necessarily a little bit lower because Epik is using two drivers while keeping the price of their subs very low. Don't get me wrong, Epik's are NOT "bad" subs". But their focus is on deep extension and they're willing to compromise in the areas of distortion and cleanliness of the sound in order to get there. My biggest problem with their sound is a lack of delineation. I find that bass notes tend to "run into" each other. I just don't get the separation of notes that an HSU/Outlaw, Rythmik or SVSound sub offers for a similar price.

Elemental Designs (eD) is another sub maker who favors deep extension and slam over "tight" sound - at least with their ported subs.

Personally, I feel that there are more than enough choices that I really like in this price range that I don't feel there is any need to compromise on any metric. An HSU VTF-3 MK4 or SVSound PB/PC12-NSD would definitely be my choice with your budget and taste in content. I know those two are towards the top of your budget, but in cases like this - where the competition is fierce and the extra money really is going into higher quality components and design - you genuinely do get what you pay for.

And again, be sure to decouple what ever sub you get. Avoid that structure-borne sound transmission and you'll have much happier neighbors who aren't being bothered by the "thump, thump, thump" that we all suffer and know all too well!

I hope that's helpful to you. And again, I'm not "hating" on Epik or eD - they're just not my personal cup o' tea, but there are many, many happy buyers of both, so this is purely just one man's opinion

Best of luck in your decision! The very good news is, no matter which sub you get out of this selection, there really is no "bad" choice. They're all very good. I'm just trying to convey the slight differences that might make you prefer one out of the bunch

Just wanted to post and say great reply...not one sided at all and gave great reccomendations!