So,upped the budget for mains to $2k, now what? :-) Aperion Verus Grands? Something else?

[Steve81]

So according to those graphs? What does that mean regarding real world performance?

A. There's a sweet spot.
B. Don't forget that even in the sweet spot, a fair proportion of the sound we hear is not direct, but reflected. As a result, smooth off axis response is generally considered desirable in order to maintain the uniformity/balance of the reflected sound.

I wasn't trying to get agitated,but when people make comments because they read something,it is ridiculous,especially when I've had most of those speakers set up properly in my home.

I could be misinterpreting Harrison's statement, but it sounded like he actually listened to them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So your talking about how far the so called sweet spot extends?

I think so.

I think a smooth horizontal off-axis frequency response can be translated to mean the sound will less likely be adversely affected by the room acoustics and placement of the speakers.

But, if it sounds great to you, then that's all that matters.

I think subwoofer bass is important to the overall perceived SQ.

 

[Goat1]

I think so.

I think a smooth horizontal off-axis frequency response can be translated to mean the sound will less likely be adversely affected by the room acoustics and placement of the speakers.

But, if it sounds great to you, then that's all that matters.

I think subwoofer bass is important to the overall perceived SQ.

I absolutely agree with that. My problem is I can't figure out if I want to run Dipole,Bipole or Monopole surrounds. I have all 3 types,I just threw the Paradigm ADP 170 Dipoles up last night,about 2 ft above ear lever,or should they be at the same height with your ears? I have Def tech sr8040 bipoles and Martin Logan Motion 4's,I was using the 4's for height speakers for a while. What do you think?

 

[FLMike]

Goat, I'm not an expert but let me give a try at explaining the graphs above because they are prety useful and have a lot of info. There are three axies. The one on the far left is Db (sometimes called sound Pressure Level I think). That is a unit of volume. The one across the bottom is frequency, and the one on the far right is degrees off axis. Think of it as listening position relative to Dead center, with "0" being dead center. "30" on that axis would be at a listening position 30 degrees off-axis or 30 degrees "off Center" to the left or right. So, you can see that between roughly 30 degrees to the left and 30 degrees to the right of dead center on the second graph, the height of the bars is relatively "high". But outside of 30 degrees falls off very, very rapidly. That means that the volume outside of 30 Degrees tails off noticeably and sharply. So in this example the sweet spot is roughly between "0" and thirty degrees. Actually a little less than thirty degrees to be fair. That is the "sweet spot" and it is pretty noticeable. Notice that the roll off of the KEF is mush less steep as you move off axis, making the effect less noticeable and yielding a broader "sweet spot".

You can also get some good information on frequency response from this pic too. If you look at the "0" position on graph two and graph 3 and follow the frequency response all the way from right to left, you will note that the KEF is very, very flat. It has no really discernible peaks and valleys. In a nutshell, that means that it does not overemphasize or under-emphasize (ie make it louder or softer than any other frequency) any particular frequency in the given range. Now look at the middle graph and you will see some over-emphasis in the highest range. So, just graph-wise the KEF has a flatter response and is not adding much in the way of its own "Color". That is considered good for faithful replication of a given audio source.

Like I said, I'm not an expert/engineer, so I welcome any corrections to what I have said. But bottom line, I agree with Def. The most important thing is how your speakers sound to you, in your environment, listening to what you like to listen to. But measurements and like this can assist in making informed decisions. Thanks again to Steve81 for posting these. I found them really interesting.

Best,

Mike

 

[Steve81]

You can also get some good information on frequency response from this pic too.

Not from those plots. 0 degrees is the reference plot, so it's intentionally flat and the off axis response is normalized to it.

It's a little more apparent when you look at the vertical plots; this is for the Montis:

 

[Goat1]

Thanks Mike,that was a great response and insightful. So are you saying my Logan's are garbage then? Should I throw them up on Craigslist? LOL

 

[FLMike]

Thanks. What I was getting at was a more general comment that the KEF looked generally flatter in the first couple of off axis plots than the two electrostat plots and at least to my eye looked smoother. And the overall plot looked smoother as well. Not perfect, but less "jaggies". It also looked to me like the KEF rolled off more smoothly accross the entire band than did the electrostats, which I found interesting as well. That said, I am NOT an engineer and this is what happens when a non-engineer starts using tech terms loosely . And thank you very much for the closeup of the graph.

Best,

Mike

 

[FLMike]

Yes, Goat. That is exactly what I am saying and I am glad you were able to discern the precise message in my post. To sum it up, your speakers are crappy and so are your ears. Can you put them on Craig's list too? <Kidding obviously>

None of these measurements will tell you the entire story. They can just help you see potential pros and cons by giving you some "apples to apples" measurements to compare. I still say the most important datapoint is whether you like the sound, in your room, with your stuff. The Aperions I have coming look great on paper and have good feedback from people who have had them in home. That said, my environment is somewhat challenging. Tile floors, lower ceilings, wood blinds,half open back wall. They may sound like crap here. It won't be their fault most likely, they just may not be the right speaker for my specific space. Maybe they will. We shall see!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I absolutely agree with that. My problem is I can't figure out if I want to run Dipole,Bipole or Monopole surrounds. I have all 3 types,I just threw the Paradigm ADP 170 Dipoles up last night,about 2 ft above ear lever,or should they be at the same height with your ears? I have Def tech sr8040 bipoles and Martin Logan Motion 4's,I was using the 4's for height speakers for a while. What do you think?

I actually don't think surround speakers are all that important as long as you have them; it doesn't matter to me what kind they are. Whatever looks the best aesthetically and makes plenty of ambient sound is good enough for me.

 

[Goat1]

Are you serious, or are you pulling my tallewacker?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are you serious, or are you pulling my tallewacker?

I am serious.

My KEF 201/2 are very pretty as surrounds.

Seriously, I just don't think there's much to surround speakers except for creating ambience and panning effects, which I don't think require as much work as the front 3 speakers.

 

[Goat1]

I don't agree.

Sent from my GT-N8013 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

 

[perpetualglass]

I also looked at the logan martin ESL's, but decided against them for home theater use as you have to be sitting in the sweet spot to really get the good sound. Even standing up, when I was in the sweet spot was enough to throw it out of kilter.

My experience exactly. Well, almost. I'm planning on using a 2.0 system, eventually 2.1. I don't watch enough of anything for a center channel to become relevant.

 

[Steve81]

My problem is I can't figure out if I want to run Dipole,Bipole or Monopole surrounds..about 2 ft above ear lever,or should they be at the same height with your ears?..What do you think?

IIRC, THX spec on side surrounds calls for dipoles 2 feet above your ear level, so that's one starting point. IME, dipoles placed in such a manner give a very diffuse, hard to localize sound. Monopoles at ear level, not so much.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't agree.

Sent from my GT-N8013 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2

Well, just listen to the surround speakers next time you watch a movie. Don't you just hear a bunch of ambient sounds most of the time?

 

[Goat1]

Yes,its ambient sound,but its either direct or diffused,that's the difference. Honestly,you probably can't go wrong and I tend to over think things,but I doubt I'm alone. I wonder how many guys on here 2nd guess their speaker choice? lol I know I did about 6 times.. I'm happy now..

 

[Harrison20]

Yes, I have the versus grand center, and yes it is huge. Can't compare it to the forte though as I have never heard it. Wasn't crapping on Martin Logan. Fabulous speakers, just don't think great for home theater. Better for stereo listening. Wish I could afford both. My opinion only, and we all have opinions and different tastes. Might want to order both the forte and the grand and send back the one you don't like? Fortunately I ordered mine at the end of December before the price hike. I just got an email from them though and there is a coupon code "founders back" I think, that is good for either 15 or 20% off the list price

 

[Goat1]

I'm just curious,but did you have the Logan's in your house? They are spectacular for home theater! I'm just at a loss where you got your opinion. If you heard them at best buy,that's the problem. When I hear people say they are good for music and not that great for home theater,I think they read that and didn't actually hear them. I'm talking about in your house ,not in a store. Why would a speaker that excel's in music not be as good for home theater? That just makes no sense!

 

[Harrison20]

No, heard them at Magnolia/best buy. Again, not trashing your choice, just for me it was a deal breaker. You love your speakers, I love mine, can't we just all get along? Now when I can get a dedicated pair of Maggie's, that may be a diff story. Cheers enjoy you your wonderful speakers. No harm intended.

 

[Harrison20]

Music is different than home theater. Home theater has to appeal to a broader array of people sitting in different positions relative to the speakers. Electrostatic are very directional. Just my 2 cents and I am not an expert.