So,upped the budget for mains to $2k, now what? :-) Aperion Verus Grands? Something else?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Another thing. People can talk about how a speaker sounds,but honestly,even listening to some speakers,it took me a while to pick up with my ears how bi polar def tech's worked,or the dipole nature of the logan's esl. I just didn't hear it right away. It took me some critial listening to figure it out,but once I did ,then I understood what people meant. So,what I'm saying is that Harrison/Steve might not be hearing what I'm talking about and therefore hear nothing special. Like I said,it took bringing them home to really hear what people were talking about. Does that make sense?

I used to own the DefTech BP7000SC & BP7001SC. They filled my room with very nice sound. I immensely enjoyed them. They had kicka$$ bass too.

 

[Steve81]

So,what I'm saying is that Harrison/Steve might not be hearing what I'm talking about and therefore hear nothing special.

I could be mistaken, but I don't think I've given my subjective impressions of any Martin Logan speakers. I've posted a few measurements that would tend to back up some of Harrison's subjective impressions regarding a narrow sweet spot. I've also picked out some points in the review you linked that suggest that the ML speakers under test may not be for everybody.

And no, I'm not buying Aperions (at least I'm not planning on it).

 

[Goat1]

Ok,I think I got you guys confused.. Just for the record,there is no sweet spot for home theater,since there is a center channel. Also the sound effects go beyond the width of the speakers because of their dipole nature. The sweet spot for music is not as small as some people lead on...

 

[Steve81]

Just for the record,there is no sweet spot for home theater,since there is a center channel.

As I mentioned earlier, a center channel can actually have a relatively narrow sweet spot as well, depending on how it's designed.

The sweet spot for music is not as small as some people lead on...

Well I don't expect it to literally be measured in millimeters as some reviews suggest. Of course, even ML notes on their website that ESLs are prone to narrow sweet spots, though they advertise that their curved panels lessen the issue to some degree. Of course, the measurements don't show them to excel in off axis performance.

 

[Goat1]

If you have a super small center,its not going to narrow the sweet spot so much as just sound smaller. Sweet spot is not the right word when it comes to home theater... On music,do you run around the house and expect the music to sound perfect? C'mon man,most people sit in one spot,usually in the middle anyhow. I doubt if you have a group of friends over and your hanging out,I highly doubt they are looking for a sweet spot to listen to your music. The whole point of the center channel in home theater is dialog. How can you even comment on a sweet spot for that? I think at this point your just trying to get me going. A center channel with a relatively narrow sweet spot... are you for real?

 

[Goat1]

FLMike,let us know what you think.. I'm sure you will like them.

 

[Steve81]

If you have a super small center,its not going to narrow the sweet spot so much as just sound smaller.

It doesn't have to do with the size of the center channel, but its design.

http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=28&blogId=1

Looking at the market, I’ve found that nearly all center-channel speakers have a low, wide profile using an MTM—often called D’Appolito—array, with a pair of 4", 5.25", or 6" woofers flanking a dome tweeter. This style is decor-friendly, has a better partner acceptance quotient (PAQ?), and is physically well suited for perching atop a large-screen rear-projection display. While the driver layout of these speakers is sometimes called a D’Appolito array, few of them fit the criteria of the originator as to driver spacing, crossover frequency, and final response.
These speakers, even the better ones, have a universal characteristic: strong, sometimes severe, lobing in the horizontal plane, which will be launched into the listening area either through reflected sound or direct radiation to off-axis listeners. Fig. 1 displays an example of a typical, currently sold, MTM center channel speaker. Lobing begins at 7.5 degrees and by 22.5 degrees is quite strong. This is a sweet-spot device!

 

[Goat1]

Steve ,this is quite simple. IF,you buy a quality product,you will be ok.. I've read all about the horizontal center channel issues,which is really a non issue. My center channel sounds excellent and if there is any cancellation or lobbing I don't hear it.. Nobody probably will,unless they are trying to measure it. Like others have said,if you like the sound,it doesn't really matter now does it? Your just being technical to be technical. Just listen to your gear and smile,thinking to yourself,I'm so glad I don't have Martin Logan Electrostat's that has a sweet spot only a dog can deal with.

 

[FLMike]

Performance issues with Horizontal Centers

Goat, it is simply not true that there is "is no sweet spot for home theater since there is a center channel". Horizontally oriented Centers (most traditional in Home Theater), depending on their design, can have serious issues with off axis performance. This can lead to very different user experiences depending upon where in the room the listener is sitting. There is an excellent article on the subject here:

Vertical vs Horizontal Center Speaker Designs | Audioholics

From the intro: "If anyone likes you enough to watch a movie with you, the center channel must reproduce all that content smoothly and predictably across all your seats. If you’re sitting perfectly in front of the center channel, having multiple drivers of the same type in a horizontal configuration can do the job just fine. But if you move slightly off-axis, or as any of the other seats will realize, having horizontally-aligned redundant drivers will cause some frequencies to be canceled and some to be reinforced. This phenomenon is called wave interference and you can read more about a double-slit experiment with light (or any other physical media that behaves in waves) here. The subtracting and adding of various frequencies at various angles can result in audible shifting in the speaker’s sound across the room." (Emphasis added)

The full article is worth a look as it looks at Horizontal versus vertical arrangements accross a wide range of price points.

Also enjoyed this thread that references the above:
Horizontal Center Channel Speakers and Why They Should Be Avoided - Blu-ray Forum

And I can tell you from personal experience that my current center, the Athena AS-Cx suffers from some of the issues these articles discuss. It can be almost impossible to understand dialog in certain seating positions. It has a lot to do with why I am upgrading at the moment.

Best,

Mike

 

[Steve81]

Steve ,this is quite simple. IF,you buy a quality product,you will be ok..

Unfortunately, price and brand prestige aren't guarantees of quality.

I've read all about the horizontal center channel issues,which is really a non issue.

From your prior comments regarding "super small centers" and sweet spots, I'm guessing you haven't.

My center channel sounds excellent and if there is any cancellation or lobbing I don't hear it.. Nobody probably will,unless they are trying to measure it. Like others have said,if you like the sound,it doesn't really matter now does it?

Suffice it to say I don't begrudge you the enjoyment of your system.

Your just being technical to be technical.

No, I'm being technical because Harrison made a subjective claim regarding the sweet spot of the ML's he heard and you so eloquently stated "That is absolute BS!". Given how ML's large ESLs tend to perform from an objective standpoint, I'd be inclined to disagree with your assertion.

 

[Goat1]

FLMike,I've read the bluray.com center channel thread. That thread is absolutely pointless!
Steve,most people know that Martin Logan's have a sweet spot. The older versions suffered this more. I'm guessing since Martin Logan's have been around for so long that they are doing ok,or maybe they should just shut down the company,because according to you guys the sweet spot is a serious issue and has no reason to be in business. Here's another good read.
MartinLogan Interview with Joe Vojtko | Audioholics

 

[Steve81]

Steve,most people know that Martin Logan's have a sweet spot.

So IOW, when you said Harrison was spouting absolute BS for saying the ML's he heard had a narrow sweet spot, you may have misspoken slightly?

 

[Goat1]

Super Steve,they use a curvilinear panel instead of the old straight panel to deal with some of the known issues of the older panels. If you look at their older lines,they are not curved. The small sweet spot was a lot smaller with those. Listen man,unless you took them home,and gave them some time,properly setting them up,you don't have any argument. Your just going by hearsay,nothing more.. Listening to them at best buy isn't going to help matters. Like I said,these speakers are obviously not for you or Harrison,so lets just drop it.

 

[FLMike]

Just to Clarify, I am NOT trashing horizontal Centers in general. Gene has an excellent counterpoint to the article I referenced that I read the other day. (You can find a link to it at the end of the Vertical/Horizontal one). I am only pointing out that from my perspective you need to pay attention to the design considerations that the Mfr. takes into account to mitigate potential issues. One of the reasons that I am hoping I can make the Grand Center work is because of its driver and crossover design and the consistency in how it measured in the test measurements in the Audioholics review. (yeah, there is that pesky measurements thing again).

Best,

Mike

 

[Steve81]

Your just going by hearsay,nothing more..

Well you know, hearsay, measurements, a professional review that you've linked, etc.

so lets just drop it.

That much I can agree on. Enjoy your MLs Goat. Hugs!