sacd player - got it hooked up two ways, one sounds funny.

[bryantm3]

oh, i didn't know anyone asked my reciver model. sorry!

yamaha RX-V757.

 

[mak99]

oh, i didn't know anyone asked my reciver model. sorry!

yamaha RX-V757.

OK, now for some basic questions to see how your two components are connected:

• Sony DVD 5.1 analog out is obviously connected to the "MULTI CH INPUTS" on the Yamaha amp. Are the "SURROUND BACK" inputs left unused?
• Sony DVD digital (optical) out should be connected to the DVD INPUT (#3 as shown on p. 16 of the Yamaha manual).
• Sony DVD L+R analog out should be connected to the DVD input on the Yamaha amp.

One problem might be that the amp, when in the DVD mode, may default to the digital input over the analog input, if both are connected. Try switching the analog connections on the amp to CD or MD inputs, then compare the sound output...

Does this make a difference?

 

[bryantm3]

OK, now for some basic questions to see how your two components are connected:

• Sony DVD 5.1 analog out is obviously connected to the "MULTI CH INPUTS" on the Yamaha amp. Are the "SURROUND BACK" inputs left unused?
• Sony DVD digital (optical) out should be connected to the DVD INPUT (#3 as shown on p. 16 of the Yamaha manual).
• Sony DVD L+R analog out should be connected to the DVD input on the Yamaha amp.

One problem might be that the amp, when in the DVD mode, may default to the digital input over the analog input, if both are connected. Try switching the analog connections on the amp to CD or MD inputs, then compare the sound output...

Does this make a difference?

okay, yes the surround back outputs are unused. the optical plug is plugged in correctly, and the standard L+R jacks are plugged into the dvd space. i can change the input with the remote from analogue to multi channel input to dolby digital, so i know i'm hearing different things. it's really hard to get around there and switch wires, if you knew where it was you'd understand.. it just sounds weak through the 5.1 analogue input.

 

[krabapple]

i can't find any options for adjusting bass in the dvd player.

Read the bloomin' manual. Subwoofer setting is p 76.

I can't even tell from your posts if your subwoofer is working.

Anyway. Let's assume you are playing a regular CD, not a surround disc. If you have SUBWOOFER set to YES as per p 76, you won't get bass from the 6-channel panel of your player unless you connect its WOOFER output jack to the subwoofer input jack on the 6-jack panel of the AVR. That's because setting SUBWOOFER to YES tells the player to split the bass out and send it out the WOOFER jack. Of course it only does this for the 6-channel output panel. If you use the 'regular' L/R 2-jack panel -- the one labelled 'L-audio-R' -- this doesn't happen, the player always sends a full-range signal out of those. And for those, the AVR will do the 'splitting' after it receives the signal from the player. But most AVRs CAN'T do this sort of splitting for the 6-channel jack input. Don't ask why, it just is. That's why for the 6-channel output panel, you have to make sure your player settings and connections allow the bass to be output correctly.


So, what you really want to do, is

1) set your player to SUBWOOFER ON, then
2) connect THREE cables from the player's six-channel out panel (the one labelled '5.1 output') to the AVR's 6-channel input: one from front left, one from front right, and one from WOOFER. These go to the correspoding input jacks on the AVR's 6-jack panel (front left, front right, subwoofer)

Now, when you select '6-channel' as your input source, you should hear bass from the subwoofer. If it isn't loud enough, go into the player menu and adjust the SUBWOOFER channel level, as described on p 77 of your user's manual. This will only affect output from the 6-panel connections.

If you also feel you must have a connection from the 2-jack 'L-Audio-R' panel, connect this to the 'DVD' or 'CD' inputs of your receiver. Or, use a digital connection (coaxial or optical). In either case your AVR should do the proper bass splitting (bass management).

The reason stuff might sound 'weak' from the analog 6-channel panel in this setup, compared to the digital connection, is that all of the channel levels for 6-channel analog need to be set in the PLAYER. Meanwhile, for your other connections, the channel levels are determined by the RECEIVER menu adjustments. CHances are they aren't matched to the player's. To match them properly you need a sound pressure level meter ($35 bucks from Radio Shack)
and some test tones (you rplayer and receiver probably both output test tones).

 

[bryantm3]

Read the bloomin' manual. Subwoofer setting is p 76.

I can't even tell from your posts if your subwoofer is working.

Anyway. Let's assume you are playing a regular CD, not a surround disc. If you have SUBWOOFER set to YES as per p 76, you won't get bass from the 6-channel panel of your player unless you connect its WOOFER output jack to the subwoofer input jack on the 6-jack panel of the AVR. That's because setting SUBWOOFER to YES tells the player to split the bass out and send it out the WOOFER jack. Of course it only does this for the 6-channel output panel. If you use the 'regular' L/R 2-jack panel -- the one labelled 'L-audio-R' -- this doesn't happen, the player always sends a full-range signal out of those. And for those, the AVR will do the 'splitting' after it receives the signal from the player. But most AVRs CAN'T do this sort of splitting for the 6-channel jack input. Don't ask why, it just is. That's why for the 6-channel output panel, you have to make sure your player settings and connections allow the bass to be output correctly.


So, what you really want to do, is

1) set your player to SUBWOOFER ON, then
2) connect THREE cables from the player's six-channel out panel (the one labelled '5.1 output') to the AVR's 6-channel input: one from front left, one from front right, and one from WOOFER. These go to the correspoding input jacks on the AVR's 6-jack panel (front left, front right, subwoofer)

Now, when you select '6-channel' as your input source, you should hear bass from the subwoofer. If it isn't loud enough, go into the player menu and adjust the SUBWOOFER channel level, as described on p 77 of your user's manual. This will only affect output from the 6-panel connections.

If you also feel you must have a connection from the 2-jack 'L-Audio-R' panel, connect this to the 'DVD' or 'CD' inputs of your receiver. Or, use a digital connection (coaxial or optical). In either case your AVR should do the proper bass splitting (bass management).

The reason stuff might sound 'weak' from the analog 6-channel panel in this setup, compared to the digital connection, is that all of the channel levels for 6-channel analog need to be set in the PLAYER. Meanwhile, for your other connections, the channel levels are determined by the RECEIVER menu adjustments. CHances are they aren't matched to the player's. To match them properly you need a sound pressure level meter ($35 bucks from Radio Shack)
and some test tones (you rplayer and receiver probably both output test tones).

i used test tones, all the volume from the 5.1 jacks is set to maximum. i may try fooling around with the reciever settings.
edit: messing w/ the reciver settings didn't work either. what i think may be the case is that it may be sending signals that aren't amplified, and expects the reciever to do that, but it isn't...

 

[krabapple]

i used test tones,

from what, player or receiver? I will assume you mean the player.

all the volume from the 5.1 jacks is set to maximum.

ok, and how does this compare to the AVR test tones? And do you have subwoofer set to ON in the player, with a connection betweem the sub out and the sub in of the gear?

i may try fooling around with the reciever settings.
edit: messing w/ the reciver settings didn't work either. what i think may be the case is that it may be sending signals that aren't amplified, and expects the reciever to do that, but it isn't...

? If your multichannel analog input is a simple 'pass through', there may be no amplification. But you should still be able to match the output of the player in each channel to the equivalent output of the receiver, when it's getting Dolby Digital input for example. And I still don't understand your connection setup. It sounds like you have a digital connection AND a 2-channel analog connection AND maybe a 6-channel analog connection to different inputs of your AVR. True?

I also don't understand which channels in particular sound 'weak' to you.

Does your receiver allow channel level adjustment of the 6-channel inputs?

Are you sure you are playing the 2-channel tracks of any SACD or DVD-A disc you are listening to?

Have you carefully read the manuals for both devices?

 

[Johnd]

Krabapple's not just a nickname, is it? Just kidding. Bryantm3 sounds confused. There's no reason he should not just be able to connect the player and receiver digitally, and then methodically identify the problem (w/ the sub, center, or whatever). I suggest he disconnect everything, reconnect, read the manuals for a cursory self-education, then post with a specific problem (with his connections, speakers or bass management system).

 

[krabapple]

Krabapple's not just a nickname, is it? Just kidding. Bryantm3 sounds confused. There's no reason he should not just be able to connect the player and receiver digitally, and then methodically identify the problem (w/ the sub, center, or whatever). I suggest he disconnect everything, reconnect, read the manuals for a cursory self-education, then post with a specific problem (with his connections, speakers or bass management system).

Agreed, I'd only add that he should reset the AVR and player to factory defaults (that's in the manual too).

I have a strong feeling this problem is going to turn out to be something...shall we say, elemental...

 

[bryantm3]

from what, player or receiver? I will assume you mean the player.

test tones are from the player, yes.

ok, and how does this compare to the AVR test tones? And do you have subwoofer set to ON in the player, with a connection betweem the sub out and the sub in of the gear?

as i have stated before, the subwoofer is set to on, plugged in, and is recieving the subwoofer signal.

? If your multichannel analog input is a simple 'pass through', there may be no amplification. But you should still be able to match the output of the player in each channel to the equivalent output of the receiver, when it's getting Dolby Digital input for example. And I still don't understand your connection setup. It sounds like you have a digital connection AND a 2-channel analog connection AND maybe a 6-channel analog connection to different inputs of your AVR. True?

I also don't understand which channels in particular sound 'weak' to you.

Does your receiver allow channel level adjustment of the 6-channel inputs?

Are you sure you are playing the 2-channel tracks of any SACD or DVD-A disc you are listening to?

Have you carefully read the manuals for both devices?

well, i don't need to adjust the six channels because i'm not using six channels.. i've only got a left and right channel plus a subwoofer, and i'm using a stereo SACD to test it out. also, my setup is this:
-1 S-VIDEO cable from dvd to reciever in dvd slot
-2 standard L/R RCA cables from dvd to reciever in dvd slot
-1 digital optical connection from dvd to reciever in correct slot
-6 RCA cables from 5.1 output on dvd player to multi channel input on reciever.

the dvd player settings:
-speakers set to large
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-centre speaker - no
-surround speakers - no
-subwoofer - yes

reciever settings:
(there are no specific settings for multi channel input, by the way)
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-subwoofer - yes
-speakers set to small
-subwoofer crossover at 80 Hz.
-all other speakers are set to off, since i don't have them.

i know that the multi channel inputs are plugged in correctly, because the test tones from the DVD player work for the subwoofer, left, and right channels.
what i'm hearing is this:

do you know what it would sound like if there was practically no bass coming out of the speakers, but it doesn't sound like it's in mono or has bad treble, it's just the lack of bass and 'boominess' i suppose.

about reconnecting the entire thing, i decline. like i said previously, the position of the reciever and the way the wires are fed, if i fool with it, all the wires may come unplugged and it would take me hours to reconnect it all, and it would be doubly difficult, since i didn't set up all of it (the hifi buys guy set up half.)

also, the digital input is fine, so it would be foolish to disconnect that and work with it. also, SACDs do not come through the digital output.

 

[Johnd]

It sounds like a bass management issue. If that's your only problem, it's simple: you need to adjust the bass in the bass management settings to +5, or maybe even +10 or +15 db.

If you have no bass management in the player, you'll need to get a newer one. I believe only the earliest model sacd players did not have bass management, it was soon realized that there was an absolute need for it, and now most, if not all sacd players have some form of bass management. There are articles on this right here at Audioholics like this one
DVD Audio & SACD - The Royal Scam Part II
Let us know.

 

[shokhead]

test tones are from the player, yes.

as i have stated before, the subwoofer is set to on, plugged in, and is recieving the subwoofer signal.




well, i don't need to adjust the six channels because i'm not using six channels.. i've only got a left and right channel plus a subwoofer, and i'm using a stereo SACD to test it out. also, my setup is this:
-1 S-VIDEO cable from dvd to reciever in dvd slot
-2 standard L/R RCA cables from dvd to reciever in dvd slot
-1 digital optical connection from dvd to reciever in correct slot
-6 RCA cables from 5.1 output on dvd player to multi channel input on reciever.

the dvd player settings:
-speakers set to large
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-centre speaker - no
-surround speakers - no
-subwoofer - yes

reciever settings:
(there are no specific settings for multi channel input, by the way)
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-subwoofer - yes
-speakers set to small
-subwoofer crossover at 80 Hz.
-all other speakers are set to off, since i don't have them.

i know that the multi channel inputs are plugged in correctly, because the test tones from the DVD player work for the subwoofer, left, and right channels.
what i'm hearing is this:

do you know what it would sound like if there was practically no bass coming out of the speakers, but it doesn't sound like it's in mono or has bad treble, it's just the lack of bass and 'boominess' i suppose.

about reconnecting the entire thing, i decline. like i said previously, the position of the reciever and the way the wires are fed, if i fool with it, all the wires may come unplugged and it would take me hours to reconnect it all, and it would be doubly difficult, since i didn't set up all of it (the hifi buys guy set up half.)

also, the digital input is fine, so it would be foolish to disconnect that and work with it. also, SACDs do not come through the digital output.

Should have 2 bm setups on the sony,one for DVD and one for SACD,right?

 

[Johnd]

A quick search on this product told me it can be had for $80.00, and I can find no bass management on it (for $80 what do you expect?). It seems it has adjustments for size, distance and volume, but not bass management. I think that's your problem.

 

[krabapple]

test tones are from the player, yes.

as i have stated before, the subwoofer is set to on, plugged in, and is recieving the subwoofer signal.




well, i don't need to adjust the six channels because i'm not using six channels.. i've only got a left and right channel plus a subwoofer, and i'm using a stereo SACD to test it out.

*If* your receiver allows individual channel level adjustment of 6-channel inputs (big IF), and if you are plugged into the 6-channel inputs, even if it's just the left/r/sub jacks that you're using, then you should be able to adjust the levels of those three channels in the AVR (as well as in the player).

also, my setup is this:
-1 S-VIDEO cable from dvd to reciever in dvd slot

irrelevant to your problem, as it's video

-2 standard L/R RCA cables from dvd to reciever in dvd slot
-1 digital optical connection from dvd to reciever in correct slot

These two are redundant for your setup. I can't see why you'd need both.
I would stick with the digital optical, for CD and DVD sound. You will of course have to set either your player or AVR to 'downmix' surround DVD tracks, if there's no stereo option on the DVD disc menu itself.

-6 RCA cables from 5.1 output on dvd player to multi channel input on receiver.

Required for your 2-channel SACD/DVD-A playback.

the dvd player settings:
-speakers set to large
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-centre speaker - no
-surround speakers - no
-subwoofer - yes

OK , this means that when you play a 2-channel SACD/DVD-A, the bass will NOT be directed to the subwoofer output jack of the player's 6-channel panel, because your speakers are set to large. It's usually advisable to set the speakers to SMALL, whenever you have subwoofer ON -- but certainly if you wish bass to be routed from two-channel mixes to the sub.

I suspect this is the main cause of the problems you hear.

reciever settings:
(there are no specific settings for multi channel input, by the way)
-front speakers (l/r) - yes
-subwoofer - yes
-speakers set to small
-subwoofer crossover at 80 Hz.
-all other speakers are set to off, since i don't have them.

Chances are these have no effect on the 6-channel panel input. They would affect the other two audio connections you have.

i know that the multi channel inputs are plugged in correctly, because the test tones from the DVD player work for the subwoofer, left, and right channels.
what i'm hearing is this:

do you know what it would sound like if there was practically no bass coming out of the speakers, but it doesn't sound like it's in mono or has bad treble, it's just the lack of bass and 'boominess' i suppose.

Despite sub being set ON, I suspect you have NO signal coming from your sub, when you select mult-channel as input and play a stereo SACD, since you have speakers set to LARGE. The only time you'd get bass from the multi-out sub jack in this case, would be if you selected a *multichannel* mix on an SACD. But then you'd lose the center and surround channels, since you don't have these speakers. It would sound very strange indeed.

Go into your player menus, set front l/r to SMALL, and you should now hear plenty of bass from your sub. Too much perhaps, since you have all the play channel levels maxed out. You may have to readjust those.

Are you sure you're playing the *stereo* SACD tracks on an SACD? Often that's not the default, if there's a multichannel mix.

 

[krabapple]

A quick search on this product told me it can be had for $80.00, and I can find no bass management on it (for $80 what do you expect?). It seems it has adjustments for size, distance and volume, but not bass management. I think that's your problem.

The Sony player does have BM -- whenever you can select large or small speakers, that's BM. The problem is that he has it set incorrectly, so that it's not doing anything for a 2-channel SACD source. He needs to set his speakers to small.

 

[Johnd]

He needs to set his speakers to small.

Actually, it's just the opposite. When you set speakers to large, the entire frequency is being sent to the speaker. Conversely, when set to small, frequencies below a set parameter (plus roll-off), say 120, 100, or 80 Hz, are directed to the subwoofer. Either way, that seems to be his problem:he's got bass management, it's just sorely inadequate. That's my educated guess anyway.

 

[Johnd]

krabapple: another possibility is that his speakers just don't go low enough. He has yet to post what his speakers are. He does say that there does not seem to be enough bass in 5.1, which he is directing into 2.0, or 2.1. Which seems to infer that there is enough bass in stereo sound...but he has never said that. So, bryantm3, is there plenty of bass in stereo, and what type/model of speakers are you running?

Edit:
Actually, bryantm3 does say that in his first post. My oversight. I was going to suggest you drive your mains through the sub, but if you get plenty of bass out of the two mains in dvd, it's moot.

 

[krabapple]

Actually, it's just the opposite. When you set speakers to large, the entire frequency is being sent to the speaker. Conversely, when set to small, frequencies below a set parameter (plus roll-off), say 120, 100, or 80 Hz, are directed to the subwoofer.

How on earth is that the *opposite* of what I wrote?? Set to LARGE, the left and right fronts are getting full-frequency output (assuming the AVR doesn't do its own BM, which in the case of the 6-channel analog input, it almost certainly isn't). But the SUB is getting zilch, nada, nothing, from a two-channel mix, in that configuration. Set to SMALL, the bass is extracted from any 'small' channels and routed to the sub. So he needs to set the speakers in his player to SMALL, else his bass is going to sound 'weak' compared to a digital source (where the AVR does bass management).

Put another way: He has his speakers set to LARGE in the player. That means that in situations where the *player* determines the bass management -- i.e, analog output from the 6-channel panel -- there's going to be NO output from the sub channel, if there is no .1 info on the disc to begin with. For a two-channel mix, it doesn't matter that sub is set to ON...with speakers set to LARGE, a two-channel mix will stay entirely in the front left/right, if it's output from the 6-channel analog panel.

Either way, that seems to be his problem:he's got bass management, it's just sorely inadequate. That's my educated guess anyway.

Whereas I predict his problem is he's not getting 'enough' (as in *any*) output from his sub, from two-channel SACDs, with his current config.

This is assuming he's not doing something really silly, like playing the a 5.1 mix in a 2.1 setup without downmixing.

 

[krabapple]

krabapple: another possibility is that his speakers just don't go low enough. He has yet to post what his speakers are. He does say that there does not seem to be enough bass in 5.1, which he is directing into 2.0, or 2.1. Which seems to infer that there is enough bass in stereo sound...but he has never said that. So, bryantm3, is there plenty of bass in stereo, and what type/model of speakers are you running?

He doesn't have a 5.1 setup. As I understand it, he has 2 speakers + a sub. So he shouldn't be playing 5.1 sources anyway, unless he's got downmixing on.

Edit:
Actually, bryantm3 does say that in his first post. My oversight. I was going to suggest you drive your mains through the sub, but if you get plenty of bass out of the two mains in dvd, it's moot.

I don't think it's a complicated as all this. I expect his digital and 'dedicated' analog 2-channel input are being bass managed by the receiver, whereas SACD (6-channel input) is bass managed in the player. Hence the difference.
The SACD player isn't doing any bass re-routing in its current configuration (because he has speakers set to LARGE), whereas I bet his AVR is. I'm guessing he has speakers set to SMALL in his AVR, or is comparing his SACD play to X.1 dolby digital/DTS playback -- in either case, he's comparing a situation where there *isn't* subwoofer output, to a situation where there *is*.

 

[tomd51]

bryantm3;
I know this has been suggested several times here, confusingly at times, but I'm not sure you've done this. Unless your mains (L/R) are capable of a FR down to ~30Hz, you should be setting your speakers to small on your DVD player as well as your receiver.

The subwoofer will be handling any signal 80Hz and lower as you've previously specified this is what has been set on your receiver as the crossover level. You really don't want to send this signal to your mains unless they are very bass capable. -TD

 

[Johnd]

How on earth is that the *opposite* of what I wrote??

Whereas I predict his problem is he's not getting 'enough' (as in *any*) output from his sub, from two-channel SACDs, with his current config.

This is assuming he's not doing something really silly, like playing the a 5.1 mix in a 2.1 setup without downmixing.

Now, now krabapple...I'm trying to figure this one out just like you. I missed the part where he's lacking bass "in his sub"; this thread is rife with statement that he's lacking bass. I think he's confused. He keeps writing stereo and 2 channel (not 2.1), which to me means two speakers. I think he means there is not enough bass in his mains; that's why I wrote set the speakers to "large." He also wrote early on:

"oh, i also have it hooked up with a single-line thingy (forgot what it's called.. i just know it's not coaxial or HDMI, and it carries dolby digital, and doesn't carry the SACD signal.)

i just wish they made a single line digital plug for sacd to reciever. the dvd player has to convert it to analogue and it mucks it all up."

How many posters here don't know what an optical cable is called (answer: optical cable). Clearly he's a little confused. Why bother with sacd's and sacd players if you're only going to play it through 2.0 or 2.1? Audioholics is for the novice, mid-level audiophyte, as well as the afficionado...that's one of the things I like about it. If bryantm3 writes his problem(s) more succintly, I'm happy to offer assistance, otherwise I'm done here (toast).

Additionally, the quip about lack of bass management, when I clearly identified it in the exact same sentence, was not meant for you, but for bryantm3. If he doesn't know what an optical cable is, do you really think he can properly set up bass management with just a post or two? It's not that complicated, but it's certainly not that simple. There are whole threads dedicated to bass management. I would direct him there (as well as the manuals, which you have already done). And some universal players are lacking in the bass management department, particularly those players in the $80.00 range. I don't know. In any event, it sometimes pays to put your feelers out, just to see what you reel in. Anyway, I was not attempting to disparage my Scottish brother in arms (i'm assuming that from the "Read the bloomin manual" comment. Cheers!