Question about watts

[riley3245]

New to all this and I recently installed B&W CCM665 speakers. I have 2 of them in my bedroom and was wondering is a Sonos connect amp would be good enough to power them.

The specs say the speakers are RMS power 25 watt and the peak power performance is 130 watts 8 ohms

Sonos is Total power handling 110 watts class D amp.

Question:

Is the Sonos enough to get the most out of the 2 speakers?

 

[HTfreak2004]

Check the effective frequency operation range of your speakers and the db sensitivity eg. My paradigm studio 100v3 have an in room sensitivity of 91 db meaning 1 watt at 1 meter in average listening room. If I sit 4 meters away it takes 4 watts to produce that db at the listening point but that is only one speaker. If I use 2 speakers they share the work. Basically each speaker with the same specs will add about 3db at the listening point. Put another way if I sit at 4 meters away from the speaker the db level drops 6 db because I am doubling the listening point two times. 1 meter x 2 = 2 meters drops 3 db now 2 meters x 2 = 4 meters and 6db loss at listening position. Add the second speaker and you halve the loss therefore the amp power needed to restore the loss of db(perceived volume) by you is 2 watts. That is for reference level which is approx 85 db. Keep in mind that you amp can safely increase the db about 13 over the speaker sensitivity which when you add all the speakers and room gain would scare the pants off you. You always must remember the end amp watts is the most useful measure and not peak.. my amp is an anthem mca50 bought in 2004. 5 channel 180x5. I have thrown everything at it with my HT
And to be honest the room gain and each speakers addition to the volume gain never will cause me to push the amp into clipping. Manufacturers know that ppl are ignorant of the way rooms and speakers work together to produce the end DB level and how little power is needed to produce that level and how loud that really is which is very very loud. If you ask the amp to increase the total volume gain 20 db over reference it requires about 100 watts or 100 times the speaker sensitivity at 1 meter now at 4 meters that's double the 4x the distance so you need 400 watts/2 speakers = 200 watts rms/channel so that would burn you amp out and blow your speakers if you even tried it. If you want that listening level sit 2 1.5 meters away from the speaker. So lastly you have enough power to listen loud you just shouldn't try to push your db gain much more than 10 db per channel or you will run out of clean power and push the amp into clipping by that point you won't hear anyway or like what your hearing. Hope that helps a little!

 

[Bucknekked]

New to all this and I recently installed B&W CCM665 speakers. I have 2 of them in my bedroom and was wondering is a Sonos connect amp would be good enough to power them.

The specs say the speakers are RMS power 25 watt and the peak power performance is 130 watts 8 ohms

Sonos is Total power handling 110 watts class D amp.

Question:

Is the Sonos enough to get the most out of the 2 speakers?

riley3245:
the answer from HTfreak2004 was a good answer looking at power verses sound pressure level. The sonos will make sound come out of your new speakers.

I would only add my opinion of listening to sonos systems installed in my daughters home. She has every product sonos ever made (that may be an exaggeration). The only thing I would say to your question is that the sonos system works, but there's not much to recommend it in terms of audio high fidelity.

If you have a sonos amp and you want to try it, go ahead. If you like the sound with your new speakers, then you're done. There are a lot of other factors that go in to how its going to sound other than the amp. Take it one step at a time.

 

[PENG]

Put another way if I sit at 4 meters away from the speaker the db level drops 6 db because I am doubling the listening point two times. 1 meter x 2 = 2 meters drops 3 db now 2 meters x 2 = 4 meters and 6db loss at listening position.

Not really, it is 6 dB drop each time you double the distance, not 3 dB. That's without room gain.

And to be honest the room gain and each speakers addition to the volume gain never will cause me to push the amp into clipping.

That may be the case for you but it varies with different room acoustic environments and speaker placement. I also feel people sometimes worry too much about clipping due to not having enough amp power when in many cases their speakers could actually be the weak link, and may not be capable of producing the spl they need in a nice way regardless of amp power.

 

[j_garcia]

To answer the original question, it sounds like it will be fine.

130W is not peak performance but the point at which things will begin to fail. Just because you have 110W, does not mean you are USING 110W. Typical material at normal listening levels will give average draw of 5-10W and while peaks may get in the 100-200W range, that will usually be for seconds. You'd need to put the max # given for a sustained period of time before something actually failed.

 

[riley3245]

Thank you gentleman. I will get the Sonos for the bedroom.

All this being said I was wondering if any of you could give your opinion on which receiver I should purchase for my living room. I am trying to learn what I can, but I don't have a lot time. I have it narrowed down to these:

Pioneer SC-LX801
Marantz SR6011

The speakers being used are:

(1) B&W HTM62 S2 - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-wilkins-600-series-htm62-s2-dual-5-2-way-center-channel-speaker-black/4826038.p?skuId=4826038

(4) B&W CWM663 - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-wilkins-6-2-way-in-wall-speakers-pair-white/2165054.p?skuId=2165054

(2) B&W CCM663 - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-wilkins-6-2-way-in-ceiling-speaker-each-white/3526156.p?skuId=3526156

(2) B&W 10" 200W active sub - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-wilkins-10-200w-active-subwoofer-black/3395019.p?skuId=3395019

Plus (1) B&W CCM664SR in my bathroom using a separate zone. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-wilkins-6-2-way-in-ceiling-speaker-each-white-black/2155621.p?skuId=2155621

I will be sitting 13 feet away from the farthest speakers if that helps. I was recommended the Marantz, but I don't know if it has enough power.

Thanks again for any help you guys can give. Even if it's just to name a receiver.

 

[PENG]

That's a lot of speakers to drive for 13ft/4m listening position. Sitting 4m means you will lose 12 dB without room gain, you most likely will get 3 to 5 dB back from room gain and with multiple speakers.

So based on sensitivity of 87 dB/1M you should expect about 80 to 81 dB at your sitting position for an guesstimated 1.3 to 1.4W assuming the average impedance of those speakers are 6 ohms.

To get 3 dB increase in SPL from you sitting position, you need to double the amp power.
Example: Say 1.3W for 80 dB, add 21 dB for dynamic peaks (mostly found in classical music), the power needed will be 170W. In that case either AVR can do the job and if you need more SPL you will need to add an external power amp in either case.

I would suggest the Marantz for better bass management capability. You may be able to get better deals on the Denon side. They do sound virtually the same to me regardless of the hearsays about Marantz vs Denon sound.

 

[vsound5150]

Very helpful information. Someone earlier said don't push 10dB per channel or you will run out of clean power and push the amp into clipping. Does it mean 10dB past reference or something else?

 

[RichB]

There is insufficient data to cut it that close. Here are the Stereophile measurements of the CM5 speakers:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-amp-wilkins-cm5-loudspeaker-measurements#5UD3UvSm6TkR4x7B.97

The CM5's hit 4.5 ohms at 100Hz which requires more current to drive. I don't have a lot of time right now, but it would be interesting to run some tones and measure at my listening distance. With the published impedance measurements, it should be possible to compute the power required and compare that to one of the many calculators out there.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

There is insufficient data to cut it that close. Here are the Stereophile measurements of the CM5 speakers:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-amp-wilkins-cm5-loudspeaker-measurements#5UD3UvSm6TkR4x7B.97

The CM5's hit 4.5 ohms at 100Hz which requires more current to drive. I don't have a lot of time right now, but it would be interesting to run some tones and measure at my listening distance. With the published impedance measurements, it should be possible to compute the power required and compare that to one of the many calculators out there.

- Rich

Agree, that's why I stated my assumptions in my rough calculations. According to B&W website, the center speaker dips to 3.5 ohms while the others 4.5 ohms so assuming 6 ohms nominal is probably more realistic if not conservative enough, than the 8 ohms B&W specified.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you gentleman. I will get the Sonos for the bedroom.

All this being said I was wondering if any of you could give your opinion on which receiver I should purchase for my living room. I am trying to learn what I can, but I don't have a lot time. I have it narrowed down to these:

Pioneer SC-LX801
Marantz SR6011

The speakers being used are:

(1) B&W HTM62 S2 - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-wilkins-600-series-htm62-s2-dual-5-2-way-center-channel-speaker-black/4826038.p?skuId=4826038

(4) B&W CWM663 - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-wilkins-6-2-way-in-wall-speakers-pair-white/2165054.p?skuId=2165054

(2) B&W CCM663 - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-wilkins-6-2-way-in-ceiling-speaker-each-white/3526156.p?skuId=3526156

(2) B&W 10" 200W active sub - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-wilkins-10-200w-active-subwoofer-black/3395019.p?skuId=3395019

Plus (1) B&W CCM664SR in my bathroom using a separate zone. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/bowers-wilkins-6-2-way-in-ceiling-speaker-each-white-black/2155621.p?skuId=2155621

I will be sitting 13 feet away from the farthest speakers if that helps. I was recommended the Marantz, but I don't know if it has enough power.

Thanks again for any help you guys can give. Even if it's just to name a receiver.

The Marantz receiver (or an equivalent Denon) would be my choice. I wouldn't even consider a B&W sub, tho, as there are far better choices out there unless you just want the brand to match (there's no sonic reason to use the same brand of sub).

 

[PENG]

The Marantz receiver (or an equivalent Denon) would be my choice. I wouldn't even consider a B&W sub, tho, as there are far better choices out there unless you just want the brand to match (there's no sonic reason to use the same brand of sub).

Great point about the B&W subs.

 

[Bucknekked]

Great point about the B&W subs.

I think this is the point in the thread where someone usually steps in and says "SVS makes great subs. Here's the one I would get". No argument from me. I just expected somebody to say that already.

 

[riley3245]

Thank you again everyone. I will get rid of the B&W subs. I only wanted to give you an idea of the system I was trying to create.

I was also thinking about getting a Marantz receiver and amp separate. Would that be a better option? One thing that may be an issue is the living room is 13 x 12, but there is an open wall that leads into the kitchen. I would really like to create an immersive experience since I will be using this for movies and playing games (especially VR).

So far I guess the best thing to do is get rid of the B&W subs and keep the Marantz receiver.

I am trying to figure things out, but I'm confused about which would be best.

Their sight says AV Separates, Hi-Fi Components, Reference Series, and AV Receivers and I don't know anything about these products.

http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/CategoryListing.aspx

I'm just not sure what to buy. I can only play it safe and get the SR6011, but I don't want to spend that much money on a set up and not get the most out of it.

Should I get a receiver and amp separate? I hate to ask for an answer without doing my homework, but this whole process has got me worn out.

 

[Bucknekked]

Should I get a receiver and amp separate? I hate to ask for an answer without doing my homework, but this whole process has got me worn out.

As a recent poster just told me yesterday, There are two kinds of people in the world.
1. Those who do their homework
2. Everybody else

Part of the hobby of audio is the homework. One can view it as a chore, or, as enjoyment.
If you think its a chore to get knocked out of the way, that sounds like a simple "buy an AVR and be done" approach. If you don't enjoy the homework, it isn't likely you will live in peace with the complexity that is "separates".

If you're a bit worn out, I get that. Lots of numbers and unfamiliar concepts, cables, plugs and differing opinion on what's good and bad. One approach is to take a deep breath, go take a nap, and look at it afresh tomorrow. No sense in rushing a decision, unless of course, you just gotta rush.

 

[RichB]

As a recent poster just told me yesterday, There are two kinds of people in the world.
1. Those who do their homework
2. Everybody else

3. Those that quote other peoples homework (I am guilty of that )

- Rich

 

[vsound5150]

I'm just not sure what to buy. I can only play it safe and get the SR6011, but I don't want to spend that much money on a set up and not get the most out of it.

Should I get a receiver and amp separate?

The SR6011 is an excellent choice and will do fine without a separate amp you can always add an amp later.

If you're into refurbished/as-new equipment accessories4less.com has it for $900 and they're an Authorized Marantz dealer comes with 1-year warranty but don't throw away the box and packing material they require it if you decide to return it. Maybe with the savings you can get another model with more watts.

 

[riley3245]

I agree Buck. That is why I said that way. I realize that to many people here it's a great hobby that is fun and rewarding. To be honest I sort of fell into this. I always like to do things right if I'm going to do it at all. I started this just wanting to get a nice system to fill the roles I mentioned, but I saw quickly that it was more involved then that.

When I say I'm short on time it's because I started this renovation months ago and not only do I really want my home back, but I'm taking the Bar exam next month. I should have stopped everything and focused on that alone by now. If I'm being honest I will most likely not be that involved with audio systems after this, but I do want to do it right. Who knows once I hear the difference I may start up the hobby.

As of right now I feel like a purchased a race track and I'm asking for which car would be best for the ride. I don't want to drive a station wagon when I should be in a Lambo. The problem is all I see is four wheels and an box. You guys know how to build the car from the engine up and I just need someone to say "Here is a pre made Lambo and you will get a lot out of your track with this. Next time build your own from the ground up, but this will help you get started."

 

[riley3245]

Thanks Vsound. I'll pick that up and get an additional amp if needed.

Thanks again everyone. I greatly appreciate the help.

 

[Bucknekked]

When I say I'm short on time it's because I started this renovation months ago and not only do I really want my home back, but I'm taking the Bar exam next month. I should have stopped everything and focused on that alone by now.

Dude, if you're studying to pass the bar, you have a seriously full plate. The good news is , great music will soothe the savage beast. Great music should smooth the process to a successful bar exam. I wish you no luck on the bar. I wish you a passing score, with plenty of headroom.

As luck would have it, I am going to the home of a practicing attorney this morning to audition some speakers. I will share with you how it sounds later on today, just for fun. So there is hope for after you pass the bar. Be well.