Powercords

[DaveOCP]

Tom, dont forget that all toothpastes must be tested double-blind. If you know which toothpaste you are trying, it might bias you into thinking it tastes better than another toothpaste when all toothpastes actually taste exactly the same.

 

[Tom Andry]

Tom, dont forget that all toothpastes must be tested double-blind. If you know which toothpaste you are trying, it might bias you into thinking it tastes better than another toothpaste when all toothpastes actually taste exactly the same.

Good point. I suppose you could obscure the labels on all of them and have someone number each (you'd then have to kill them to make sure they don't inadvertently bias your reactions), then every six months you reach into a bag (or use a random number generator) to pick the one being tested.

However, you may recognize a toothpaste by its color or consistency or whatnot (an OCC reference) so you have to control for that. Perhaps only brush your teeth while blindfolded? I've got it, have a blind, deaf, mute with very little sense of smell brush your teeth for you, three times a day, while you are blindfolded, hog-tied, and are forced to wear B[l]OSE noise canceling headphones. Of course, the interaction between the toothpaste, the last thing you consumed (hopefully not orange juice), the type of toothbrush, and the flavor of mouthwash poses a real problem. Hmm...perhaps I'll just take the Dentist's word for it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Wow, just wow.

Tom, he wants to reinvent the wheel himself. I wonder what invention he is up to, fire?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Tom, dont forget that all toothpastes must be tested double-blind. If you know which toothpaste you are trying, it might bias you into thinking it tastes better than another toothpaste when all toothpastes actually taste exactly the same.

What a silly comment. You buy toothpast for its taste regardless of its effectiveness???
Oh, yes, lots of products are tested DBT, even for taste. Even wine is taste tested DBT. But, hey, I just read that, no first hand experience.

 

[Bevan]

as i saw the morning star rising in the east this morning, it all became clear...

if subjective bias/the placebo effect is so powerfull that it can have grown men in tears of of joy over the sound of there new cd player or amp which sounds exactly the same as there old one, this bias must also be able to turn a mediocre speaker into a great one, or a great speaker into a dissapointment, depending on the conscious or unconscious bias of the listner, no?

this would seem to suggest that it is pointless to demo any hifi components in the shop or at home(assuming we are only wanting to spend money on objectively better components, as many of you seem to suggest should)

this brings me to the conclusion, thanks to mytrcrafts wisdom, that we should only read hifi magazine reviews when concidering an upgrade(if you allow upgrades are possible at all). and the more reviews the better! seems to me that the only effort we should be realisticly making in improving our hifi's and our enjoyment of them is to develop our biases to the greatest degree possible, and take advatage of the magic placebo pill.(even room treatment i cant trust to improve my system as i am biased by the belief that it will help, damn!)

i mean, honestly, if a hypnotist told you he could make your system sound like it cost $1000000, who would have any reason to turn him down? reality over illusion is a tenable philosophical position, but hifi is not a metaphics, its just something to help me ENJOY the music more.

dbabx, i'm over it. goto go to the store now to pick up the latest issue of What HiFi

 

[Tom Andry]

if subjective bias/the placebo effect is so powerful that it can have grown men in tears of of joy over the sound of there new cd player or amp which sounds exactly the same as there old one, this bias must also be able to turn a mediocre speaker into a great one, or a great speaker into a disappointment, depending on the conscious or unconscious bias of the listener, no?

Beven, we are right back full circle to where I entered this discussion (here). You don’t need to use DB or ABX or anything really to show obvious differences. It’s when someone claims to hear something that others are not hearing that the DB and ABX protocols are of use. ONLY SUBTLE DIFFERENCES.

 

[DaveOCP]

I really dont care wether its real chicken or if the Matrix is just telling me its real chicken. As long as the chicken tastes good, I'm happy.

 

[Bevan]

Yeah tom, i agree.

more obvious differences(most speakers if we can agree?) dont 'need' abx tests. only suble differences eg between cables, amps(?), cdp(?). and obvious differences may be obvious to all, regardless of bias.

but this placebo effect, if thats all there is to it, does not offer "ONLY SUBLE DIFFERENCES" to some people was my point. i have read people almost weeping over their keyboards as they report on their new cd player.

so if you grant such power to subjective bias as i think some in this thread claim, then must one not admit it can also hold sway over speaker auditions where the differences between speakers are often only subtle? can it not pollute everything to some degree?

dont know if we are in dissagreement. either way, maybe we shouldnt, as they say, 'look a gift horse in the mouth'? dont see any reason to get rid of my bias, hasnt cost me tooooo much thus far

b

 

[Tom Andry]

First of all, I apologize for capitalizing “only subtle differences.” I write everything in Word (cause I can't spell worth a damn) and I do that to remind myself to bold something. Didn't mean to shout.

so if you grant such power to subjective bias as i think some in this thread claim, then must one not admit it can also hold sway over speaker auditions where the differences between speakers are often only subtle? can it not pollute everything to some degree?

Short Answer: Yes.

Long Answer: One thing that statisticians understand is that bias isn’t going to go away. There is nothing you can do about it. So you try to control it in any way (mathematical or physical) that you can. DB and abx are physical methods.

We all have biases. I like smaller cars. I eat my meat rare (like cold in the center). Biases aren’t necessarily bad. They are a fact. Some people prefer speakers that produce un-lifelike sound. They may prefer them because they have a hearing deficiency in the frequency range that the speakers accentuate. That makes those speakers more realistic to them whereas someone else may listen to them and think they are awfully bright.

So if you are upgrading speakers (where the subtle differences are likely to mean that the increase in performance may not justify the price) you need to be sure you know why you are upgrading. If you are upgrading simply because you want something new. Hey, that’s a perfectly valid reason. People buy new cars all the time when their old ones work fine. If you are upgrading because you have changed the location of your HT and your old speakers are too big/small. Great. If you are upgrading 'cause you have a big pile of money in the corner and you're afraid it's going to fall over and crush the dog, that works too. If you are upgrading because you want an increase in performance, you owe it to yourself to sit them side by side and see if the price you paid is going to be worth it.

but this placebo effect, if thats all there is to it, does not offer "ONLY SUBLE DIFFERENCES" to some people was my point. i have read people almost weeping over their keyboards as they report on their new cd player.

I think subjective bias, especially with people "weeping over their keyboards as they report on their new cd player" as you say, really comes into play when there has been a time lapse between listening sessions. What I think happens (notice, opinion, not fact or from any research study) is that people pay more attention to their CD player when they get a new one. Is it that Diana Krall sounds so much better or is it that she always sounded pretty amazing but now you are paying more attention to it?

Case in point. Over one music review I did for this site (won't mention which one) Clint and I had a difference of opinion. What ended up happening is that we both went back and re-listened to the album and it ended up being a discussion about "listening for enjoyment" and "critical listening." There really is a difference.

When you get that new piece of equipment, you listen harder. It's natural. You just spent a Ho-gillion (thanks Sheep) dollars on this high-end, audiophile grade, 300lbs CD transport. You are going to listen to it to try to justify your purchase. Will you hear things that aren’t there…probably not. Will attribute things to this new piece of equipment that your old equipment did just as well? Perhaps. What you most likely won’t do (because it’s a pain in the arse) is hook the two up side by side and try to test to see if there is a difference.

“Oh, but that is a sighted test, that’s no good,” a voice cries out in the wilderness of the Internet *cough mtrycrafts cough*. Rubbish. For major differences, it’s just fine. For detecting the subtle differences, it won’t work. But if you are upgrading your CD because you want additional connection options, SACD support, aesthetics, etc. Who cares? You don’t have to hear a difference to get your money’s worth. The added functionality is what you are paying for.

But, if you are “upgrading” from one component to another with the exact same features, you’d better be able to put them next to each other and hear a major difference, or why else spend the money? And by major difference I mean, “my old one wouldn’t play E notes” not “the bass seems a little tighter, the midrange a wee bit more smooth, and the highs have a little more oomph” whatever the heck that means. I mean dramatic like the difference between revving a Honda Civic and a Ford Mustang. Obvious difference. Especially if you spent a Ho-gillion dollars on the upgrade...‘cause that’s a lot of $.

 

[WmAx]

Yeah tom, i agree.

more obvious differences(most speakers if we can agree?) dont 'need' abx tests. only suble differences eg between cables, amps(?), cdp(?). and obvious differences may be obvious to all, regardless of bias.

Human perception is very easily skewed. For accurate evaluation of preference, even speakers require double blind testing, unless the differences are very large[for example, a 3 db difference in treble might be considered large]. Dr. Floyd Toole has shown that people will consistantly rate the sound quality of a speaker that scored a certain rank in blinded conditions differently in sighted conditions. Refer to this informational summary, complete with credited peer-reviewed references in the footnotes:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/AudioScience.pdf

Yes, it is totally impractical to perform a blind test of speakers in a normal situation[it requires a large turntable to switch the speakers into the proper position for each trial and requires a large acoustical transparent sheild between the speakers and listener]. But this is just an example of how easily you can skew human auditory perception with external variables, even with things that have real audible differences.

-Chris

 

[DaveOCP]

"But, if you are “upgrading” from one component to another with the exact same features, you’d better be able to put them next to each other and hear a major difference, or why else spend the money? And by major difference I mean, “my old one wouldn’t play E notes” not “the bass seems a little tighter, the midrange a wee bit more smooth, and the highs have a little more oomph” whatever the heck that means. I mean dramatic like the difference between revving a Honda Civic and a Ford Mustang. Obvious difference. Especially if you spent a Ho-gillion dollars on the upgrade...‘cause that’s a lot of $."

I both agree and disagree. Lets say you are comparing $200 speakers like NHT SB-2s against $11K Nautilus 801s. They are both speakers and technically perform the same function. The difference between $200 NHT bookshelfs and the 801s is pretty substantial, probably worth the $10,800 difference. Another $9,000 will get you Signature 800s. The S800s are an improvement over the 801s, but obviously you will not get the quantum leap forward that you got for your original $10,800. Law of diminishing returns. Wether the S800s are worth $20K is up to the individual. Its like that with anything. A Ferrari 360 Modena is a lot more than a Civic coupe, but you get quite a bit more performance. The 575M gets you a bit more, for a lot more money.

 

[Tom Andry]

I both agree and disagree. Lets say you are comparing $200 speakers like NHT SB-2s against $11K Nautilus 801s. They are both speakers and technically perform the same function. The difference between $200 NHT bookshelfs and the 801s is pretty substantial, probably worth the $10,800 difference. Another $9,000 will get you Signature 800s. The S800s are an improvement over the 801s, but obviously you will not get the quantum leap forward that you got for your original $10,800. Law of diminishing returns. Wether the S800s are worth $20K is up to the individual. Its like that with anything. A Ferrari 360 Modena is a lot more than a Civic coupe, but you get quite a bit more performance. The 575M gets you a bit more, for a lot more money.

Excellent point. Of course we've come so far from power cords I can't even remember the OP's question . Anyhoo. For a guy that makes 30k a year, the substantial difference between the NHT and B&W's are probably not worth the money, simply because he doesn't have that to spend. To the guy that makes $75k, the 801's make sense but the hard decision is whether or not to bump up to the Sigs. For the guy that makes $300k, the sigs are alright for his bedroom set up but not really up to par for the main listening room (I'm making these numbers up just to make a point).

When going from a 10k to a 20k speaker, where the performance differences are really very slight, you are really paying more for the name and prestige than the actual performance. With the Ferrari example you gave, is that car really going to be taken to the limit so often that the 575M makes more sense? Probably not (unless you are a racer). The car is purchased for bragging rights more than anything. IMO.

Now the real question: do I think that is a waste of money? It would be a waste of MY money. But for someone with the cash...I think bragging rights are just as good a reason as any - as long as the person knows that is the reason. Nothing is worse than having someone come up to you and say, "Well, I bought these $100k speakers because they sound SOOOOOOOOOOO much better than my old 25K ones." Umm...no they don't. They may sound a little better. They may be a lot louder. They may be light-years prettier. But you bought them so you could post on audiogon about your 100k speakers. Admit it and I'm fine. Try to convince me otherwise and I think you are a dolt. But that's just me. Hey, I want an external amp. I don't need an external amp. It won't make my speakers sound any better. But I think they are cool. And that is reason enough for me.

 

[Buckle-meister]

...I couldn't care less...

At last!!!

Regards

 

[DaveOCP]

Excellent point. Of course we've come so far from power cords I can't even remember the OP's question . Anyhoo. For a guy that makes 30k a year, the substantial difference between the NHT and B&W's are probably not worth the money, simply because he doesn't have that to spend. To the guy that makes $75k, the 801's make sense but the hard decision is whether or not to bump up to the Sigs. For the guy that makes $300k, the sigs are alright for his bedroom set up but not really up to par for the main listening room (I'm making these numbers up just to make a point).

When going from a 10k to a 20k speaker, where the performance differences are really very slight, you are really paying more for the name and prestige than the actual performance. With the Ferrari example you gave, is that car really going to be taken to the limit so often that the 575M makes more sense? Probably not (unless you are a racer). The car is purchased for bragging rights more than anything. IMO.

Now the real question: do I think that is a waste of money? It would be a waste of MY money. But for someone with the cash...I think bragging rights are just as good a reason as any - as long as the person knows that is the reason. Nothing is worse than having someone come up to you and say, "Well, I bought these $100k speakers because they sound SOOOOOOOOOOO much better than my old 25K ones." Umm...no they don't. They may sound a little better. They may be a lot louder. They may be light-years prettier. But you bought them so you could post on audiogon about your 100k speakers. Admit it and I'm fine. Try to convince me otherwise and I think you are a dolt. But that's just me. Hey, I want an external amp. I don't need an external amp. It won't make my speakers sound any better. But I think they are cool. And that is reason enough for me.

I completely agree. I actually got a chance to audition a pair of Wilson MAXX speakers against the X-1 Grand SLAMMs, which at $75K cost almost double that of the MAXX, in a blind test. Each pair had two identical Krell monoblock amplifiers, and the same Mark Levinson pre-amp and CD player. I was able to reliably pick out the X-1s, mostly because the MAXXes are somewhat lean in bass response where as the X-1s are not. The MAXXes also have a little more bite and sizzle from the tweeter. Not a big difference though. Not enough that there should be a price increase big enough to buy an Acura TL with. But thats my opinion. If you've got piles of cash to burn, the exclusivity of the X-1 may be worth it. Then again, for a sheer bragging rights speaker, only the WAMM will do.

 

[Curtis Larson]

Power Cords - Esoteric knowledge

It still amazes me the amount of hurtles audiophiles go through to rationalize that they think they can hear a difference in cables, especially power cables. They ignore science, ....

It is amazing to find so many posts doubting that
a power cord can make an audio difference in a system.

Gene,
what about us-esoteric-designers that use and follow
a 'scientific' process to design an after-market power cord.
A power cord did win a 'Golden-Ear' award while back...
was the selection a mistake, bought, or per chance maybe
the power cord did what it clamed !

Noise is a subtle problem. How to control 'noise' in an audio
system has evaded many manufactures. Since most, if not all,
audio equipment use an unbalanced power source, low levels
of nosie permeate through the audio-system.
The high side of the supply is 'filtered' and the 'noise' is
coupled to the refernce side or common-ground.
Using a metal chasis allows this 'noise' to be induced into
all of the circuits in an audio system. Even though this 'noise'
is low in magnetude, the random energy of this noise interferes
and is impinged upon various components of an amplifier.

60 Hz, even 120 Hz or 180 Hz [etc.[ ripple 'noise' is managable
to a great extent, but what if there is a other 'noise' that is
un-'filtered'.
To filter the other sources of 'noise' they can be controlled either
all along the various circuit stages or 'controlled' at its source.

This 'noise' is in the 1 - 15 MHz area as was determined by using
an HP Network Analyzer: via the S-21 parameter and displyed on
a SWR print-out.

The best way for you the test out our findings is to make your
own power cord.

Curtis

 

[Curtis Larson]

I'm thinking of picking up a cheap(£50) Russ Andrews aftermarket
powercord for either my dvd player or amp or both.

I dont really know the theory behind them apart from it having
something to do with RFI filtering.

My question is: what would be the point of getting two of these(for amp and dvd player) when one could rather buy a single extention chord to go upstream of my current powerchords? (the extention chord has multiple sockets and is also meant to have RFI blocking properties)

thanks, b

Only one on the main amplifier will do...
if the power cord is able to provide real 'filtering'...
see my reply to Gene, furthr alaong.

Curtis

 

[krabapple]

It is amazing to find so many posts doubting that
a power cord can make an audio difference in a system.

Gene,
what about us-esoteric-designers that use and follow
a 'scientific' process to design an after-market power cord.
A power cord did win a 'Golden-Ear' award while back...
was the selection a mistake, bought, or per chance maybe
the power cord did what it clamed !

I'm gonna go with 'mistake', Alex.

Noise is a subtle problem. How to control 'noise' in an audio
system has evaded many manufactures. Since most, if not all,
audio equipment use an unbalanced power source, low levels
of nosie permeate through the audio-system.
The high side of the supply is 'filtered' and the 'noise' is
coupled to the refernce side or common-ground.
Using a metal chasis allows this 'noise' to be induced into
all of the circuits in an audio system. Even though this 'noise'
is low in magnetude, the random energy of this noise interferes
and is impinged upon various components of an amplifier.

60 Hz, even 120 Hz or 180 Hz [etc.[ ripple 'noise' is managable
to a great extent, but what if there is a other 'noise' that is
un-'filtered'.
To filter the other sources of 'noise' they can be controlled either
all along the various circuit stages or 'controlled' at its source.

This 'noise' is in the 1 - 15 MHz area as was determined by using
an HP Network Analyzer: via the S-21 parameter and displyed on
a SWR print-out.

The best way for you the test out our findings is to make your
own power cord.

Curtis

So, what levels of noise are you measuring in typical systems?

 

[Johnd]

Not to mention:

Does a quality filter/supprressor not eliminate most, if not all of the perceivable noise?
Does a dedicated feed, line and ground not proffer the best available (cleanest) power, short of a power regenerator?

It is far better to eliminate the noise prior to the components' power cord.

 

[gene]

It is amazing to find so many posts doubting that
a power cord can make an audio difference in a system.

Gene,
what about us-esoteric-designers that use and follow
a 'scientific' process to design an after-market power cord.
A power cord did win a 'Golden-Ear' award while back...
was the selection a mistake, bought, or per chance maybe
the power cord did what it clamed !

The only way a power cord can make an audible difference is if it is connected to a poorly designed esoteric amplifier. Filtering should be done in the amp's power supply or with a power conditioner, NOT a cable. It's like trying to place a band aid on an open wound instead of stitching it.

Only an exotic cable vendor would try to pawn off a magic power cable as a cure to resolve system noise and make your audio experience more chocolatey. Most of these cables aren't even UL approved!

 

[Audioholics]

How to control 'noise' in an audio system has evaded many manufactures (sic).

Only the ones who don't know what they are doing.

Honestly, it's like this post just went back in time 2 years... Have YOU made any measurements? We have. This is a dead parrot. The plumage don't enter into it. It's stone dead.