Power Ratings in Modern AVR's

[Halon451]

And the full bench test, reposted:

SBS-01 Surround System

Note, that they used the SBS-01's as mains but did cover the SCS-01 for the center channel speaker. I use the identical SCS-01's for my mains as well, but in vertical position. SVS sold those as SCS-01 (M)'s, which were pretty much the same exact speaker as the center, just reconfigured for vertical placement. So the grill's logo is at the bottom and the terminal posts on the back are vertically oriented vs. horizontal. Otherwise same exact speaker.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS, which speaker was that FR curve for? I assume it was the SCS-01? I'm confused. It seems to contradict the graph from the bench test KEW posted. Although there is indeed a trough in that octave, it's not nearly as severe as the one you posted. Maybe one or two db in a gentle slope but certainly no where near -10db.

View attachment 20137

Edit: Sorry maybe "contradict" isn't the right word. The general shape is the same, but that severe dip in your graph is clearly not represented quite as significantly in KEW's.

Actually the curves are very similar, the octave smoothing is different. My curves were by Tom N. He said the center measured almost the same but did not publish it.

Your problem is quite common. It leads to subs being turned up too high to try and mask inadequate BSC. It does not. This is all part of what I call the abuse of subs.

In a good system it should sound perfectly satisfactory without a sub. The sub should just add a little "icing to the cake."

 

[Irvrobinson]

In a good system it should sound perfectly satisfactory without a sub. The sub should just add a little "icing to the cake."

That is part of the frustration of subwoofers for many people. The systems where subs blend best are those that need them the least. My sub has a remote with a mute button, and it is interesting to demonstrate the difference with the sub in and out, especially since I run the mains full-range. On many classical recordings the difference seems inaudible. Of course, anything with significant sub-100Hz content sounds a lot better. I never get a suggestion to turn up the sub level.

On the other hand, this is all about acoustic music. (My system is music-only.) For HT use, or for completely synthetic pop music, bloated low frequencies are part of the desired effect for many people. I get to listen to a lot of systems, and measure more than a few too, and most people run their subs rather hot. Like 8-12db above the 1KHz level. When I show them the curves (I use 1/6th octave smoothing for this purpose, to make the effect easily seen), after the weird looks, their response usually averages out to "Well, that's what I like." When I adjust the sub level for about 3db hot, which is what often sounds most accurate with my own recordings (which I suspect is a side-effect of most residential listening rooms being poor acoustically for bass), the responses are even more interesting. "The bass sounds weak", or "Why bother to have subs if the effect is so subtle?" I often come away thinking that people want to get their money's worth from a sub purchase, and want to hear and feel them.

 

[Halon451]

Actually the curves are very similar, the octave smoothing is different. My curves were by Ted N. He said the center measured almost the same but did not publish it.

Your problem is quite common. It leads to subs being turned up too high to try and mask inadequate BSC. It does not. This is all part of what I call the abuse of subs.

In a good system it should sound perfectly satisfactory without a sub. The sub should just add a little "icing to the cake."

Not sure what you mean by "octave smoothing", could you define please? I just see two graphs representing different measurements. Yours obviously has a bit higher resolution, containing the logarithmic scale (though the other is logarithmic as well looking at the Hertz axis and values they represent) but I see your -10db lag beginning to fall off at the 250Hz mark (82db to 72 db), whereas the other one from the Sound & Vision bench test requires more of an estimation in that range because it's not marked, but I see at most, a dip beginning around the 1kHz to 2kHz range and sloping down to maybe a -1, -2db level around what seems to be the 200-300Hz region, then coming back up again before falling off past the low frequency limits of the speakers.

 

[Halon451]

I often come away thinking that people want to get their money's worth from a sub purchase, and want to hear and feel them.

There's probably a lot of truth in that statement. And I think there's a world of difference in that subjective preference between music and HT. For music I'd much rather feel a subtle boost by my sub, just enough to make the music sound like it's supposed to. However for HT I admit, I do like to feel the impact of explosions and enjoy feeling the seat underneath me vibrate a little; I don't think that's an entirely unreasonable preference for HT. TLS's preference seems to be geared much more towards classical music so that type of setup probably works very well for him, but may be a bit light on punch for others who use their systems mainly for HT.

Context is everything...

 

[Halon451]

I mean, why else do they sell 13" subs in gigantic enclosures? There ain't nothing subtle about that kind of design. They build them that way so they can deliver impact, not "icing." But I digress. I've no issues with my sub at this point, I'm just trying to better understand the relationship between my AVR and my speakers.

 

[TLS Guy]

Not sure what you mean by "octave smoothing", could you define please? I just see two graphs representing different measurements. Yours obviously has a bit higher resolution, containing the logarithmic scale (though the other is logarithmic as well looking at the Hertz axis and values they represent) but I see your -10db lag beginning to fall off at the 250Hz mark (82db to 72 db), whereas the other one from the Sound & Vision bench test requires more of an estimation in that range because it's not marked, but I see at most, a dip beginning around the 1kHz to 2kHz range and sloping down to maybe a -1, -2db level around what seems to be the 200-300Hz region, then coming back up again before falling off past the low frequency limits of the speakers.

Octave smoothing is the flattening out of wiggles in the response done by the measuring program. If you use no smoothing, you can't see the wood from the trees. 1 1/6 octave smoothing which I suspect Kew's is, makes everything look a bit better than it is. A 1/24 or 1/12 octave smoothing is more honest. I would bet the curve I posted is 1/24 octave smoothing.

Anyhow your report of how the speakers sound is compatible with the curve I posted.

May be you are the kind of guy who should take a shot at building a set of speakers?

 

[Halon451]

May be you are the kind of guy who should take a shot at building a set of speakers?

That would be a great option were I not so busy with a thousand other things in life these days. Even wrangling my HT system into shape at this point has come at great detriment to some things that I shouldn't have really let slip, so I'm particularly anxious to get this thing at least back to its previous capabilities and move on. I may consider that option in the future and actually sounds like a very fun project.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I mean, why else do they sell 13" subs in gigantic enclosures? There ain't nothing subtle about that kind of design. They build them that way so they can deliver impact, not "icing."

Not necessarily. More capability generally equates to lower distortion at a given listening level. To properly tune a sub into a system that is for acoustic music, if you're interested in accuracy, requires low distortion. A lot of second harmonic distortion in deep bass will frustrate the best intended subwoofer tuning process.

 

[Halon451]

Octave smoothing is the flattening out of wiggles in the response done by the measuring program. If you use no smoothing, you can't see the wood from the trees. 1 1/6 octave smoothing which I suspect Kew's is, makes everything look a bit better than it is. A 1/24 or 1/12 octave smoothing is more honest. I would bet the curve I posted is 1/24 octave smoothing.

TLS, where did you pull your curve from? I'm curious - the one KEW posted was from Sound & Vision which I see get referenced a lot here for their independent bench tests of AV products. So it doesn't seem like they have any kind of stake in the game other than to provide an honest, accurate set of data - I've no reason to mistrust it. And the lack of warmth and mid-bass presence could very well be represented by the Sound & Vision graph too. One notable thing, your graph seems to have a peak between about 250 and 300Hz, which I have always found (through mixing music) to produce a rather "boxy" sound. I usually cut these frequencies by a few db to soften that undesirable tonality. The speakers may lack in certain areas for sure, but they have never sounded boxy. That's at least one audible inconsistency with your graph.

I'm certainly not challenging your finding in any way to be clear, I'm just trying to better understand the differences in numbers I'm looking at between these two graphs and where to better place my trust in the numbers being represented. You stated earlier that in order for my old AVR to offset that -10db loss in that band it would have come at the expense of my HF drivers, which simply never happened in the 9 years I owned that setup. The Pioneer made it work. Somehow. I don't know how but it did.

 

[Halon451]

Not necessarily. More capability generally equates to lower distortion at a given listening level. To properly tune a sub into a system that is for acoustic music, if you're interested in accuracy, requires low distortion. A lot of second harmonic distortion in deep bass will frustrate the best intended subwoofer tuning process.

I get that, I was more or less being facetious.

 

[Swerd]

That is part of the frustration of subwoofers for many people. The systems where subs blend best are those that need them the least…

When I adjust the sub level for about 3db hot … , the responses are even more interesting. "The bass sounds weak", or "Why bother to have subs if the effect is so subtle?" I often come away thinking that people want to get their money's worth from a sub purchase, and want to hear and feel them.

I've had similar observations, both with myself years ago, and with others whom I've helped get new AV systems.

When people buy new surround sound speakers or sub woofers, they want to hear those new speakers and turn them up loud enough to do just that. Most often, they leave those initial settings and get used to the sound. Once the bass is properly set up and the surround speakers are properly balanced, most people take a while before they hear and understand the benefits.

 

[PENG]

That would be a great option were I not so busy with a thousand other things in life these days. Even wrangling my HT system into shape at this point has come at great detriment to some things that I shouldn't have really let slip, so I'm particularly anxious to get this thing at least back to its previous capabilities and move on. I may consider that option in the future and actually sounds like a very fun project.

I don't fully disagree with TLS Guy but I think he exaggerated things to the nth degree, maybe intentionally, to make his point. Based on available information, I believe the SBS-01/SCS-01 system can, and should do much better than he think in your small room sitting within 9 ft to all of your speakers. This is especially the case when your L/R SCS-01(M) are essentially the SCS-01, that has two 5.25" woofers instead of just one and should be fine in small rooms with XO set to 80 Hz. You can obviously try 90 Hz and 100 Hz but I wouldn't go any higher.

I believe your current issues are due to a combination of things including:

- Your "Old" Pioneer Elite (what model by the way?) is likely more powerful than the SR6011, say 1-2 dB.
- You were probably less critical in the "old" days as you are today, after upgrading to the latest second from the top Marantz AVR, you want to hear improvement but it seemingly has gone the other way.
- The SR6011 with Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT may have in fact cleaned up some room issues, allowing you to hear clearer sound (hard to believe, I know..), so you can now actually tolerate higher SPL. It is a known fact that higher quality sound tend to sound not as loud. The problem is, if you crank it up a little too much, distortions could rise up very rapidly to the point it becomes much more audible.

I highly recommend you do two things soon:

1. Go get a RS SPL meter to find out how loud you are really listening and we can figure out if the SR6011 has enough power and dynamic headroom on hand.

2. Email SVS's Ed Mullen, P.E. (his is a licensed professional engineer) directly and ask him about your SVS SBS/SCS-01(M)/SCS-01/PB12 NSD system related questions including amp power requirements and recommended XO. Do tell you about your room dimensions and sitting position/distance.

3. While waiting for above, read other's subjective reviews such as the two below. Aside from the graphs and data presented, those are subjective but so are yours. That's why I think go by ears is not always the best approach, though it is obviously a major part of the equation.

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/svs-sbs-01-speaker-system-11-2005-part-3.html

http://www.audioholics.com/soundbar-and-satellite-speaker-reviews/svs-sbs-01/fit-and-finish-set-up-and-sound-quality

 

[Halon451]

I've had similar observations, both with myself years ago, and with others whom I've helped get new AV systems.

When people buy new surround sound speakers or sub woofers, they want to hear those new speakers and turn them up loud enough to do just that. Most often, they leave those initial settings and get used to the sound. Once the bass is properly set up and the surround speakers are properly balanced, most people take a while before they hear and understand the benefits.

Well, I like to believe I'm a little more discerning than that. Otherwise I wouldn't be running my calibration multiple times, doing the ol' sub crawl and exploring data on AVR power specs. I didn't run the sub all that hot in my old setup - didn't need to. Maybe a 3-4 db hot, but again that was mostly more for HT impact than music. It all sounded very balanced and seamless. Zero detectable locality for the sub, those LFE impact sounds seemed to emanate directly from the speakers themselves which is a good indication of a well-balanced system, IMO.

The issue here isn't the sub. The sub is fine.. now.. after much effort. It's the apparent loss of dynamic headroom in the frequencies above my crossover point that I'm hearing still which has led me on the quest to better understand my own speaker capabilities and power considerations of the new AVR.

 

[PENG]

Lets look at the FR.

Top line is 1 meter, lower is the listening position. The purple line with the 29 Hz peak is an artifact, I'm certain.

These speakers are starting to fall off at 250 Hz. They look to have inadequate baffle step compensation. This may be to try and keep impedance near 8 ohm, or to prevent thermal damage, quite likely both. Then there is a sharp tuning peak at 80 Hz to try and paper over the the deficiency. I would bet these speakers sound distinctly on the thin side.

They actually need crossing over at 250 to 500 Hz. That deep 10db notch between 80 and 250 Hz will be highly audible. That is over an octave and a really crucial one at that.

The speakers are of low sensitivity, which will compound thermal compression issues when trying to push the speakers.

I am sure if he ran Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT properly (I believe he did), the 30-200 Hz range would be looking much better, especially when his L/R are actually SCS-01(M) that has two 5.25" woofers and a larger enclosure (almost 50% larger) than the SCS-01's.

 

[Halon451]

I believe your current issues are due to a combination of things including the follow:

- Your "Old" Pioneer Elite (what model by the way?) is likely more powerful than the SR6011, say 1-2 dB.
- You were probably less critical in the "old" days as you are today, after upgrading to the latest second from the top Marantz AVR, you want to hear improvement but it seemingly has gone the other way.
- The SR6011 with Audyssey XT32 Sub EQ HT may have in fact cleaned up some room issues, allowing you to hear clearer sound (hard to believe, I know..), so you can now actually tolerate higher SPL. It is a known fact that higher quality sound tend to sound not as loud. The problem is, if you crank it up a little too much, distortions could rise up very rapidly to the point it becomes much more audible.

- VSX-23TXH (rated at 110 wpc)
- Most definitely want to hear improvement after spending that much or at least sound that is consistent with how it was before. I should note here, that I didn't upgrade the AVR to get better sound. I had superb sound already. I upgraded it so that I could have a 4k passthrough receiver as the old Pioneer only did 1080p pass-through. I've always been supremely happy with the sound of my old setup.
- Possible? I'll break out my SPL meter and get back on that one. Though I don't have a good reference of typical SPL levels with my old system, never measured it under normal HT viewing circumstances. I just enjoyed watching and hearing movies.

I highly recommend you do two things soon:

1. Go get a RS SPL meter to find out how loud you are really listening and we can figure out if the SR6011 has enough power and dynamic headroom on hand.

2. Email SVS's Ed Mullen, P.E. (his is a licensed professional engineer) directly and ask him about your SVS SBS/SCS-01(M)/SCS-01/PB12 NSD system related questions including amp power requirements and recommended XO. Do tell you about your room dimensions and sitting position/distance.

3. While waiting for above, read other's subjective reviews such as the two below. Aside from the graphs and data presented, those are subjective but so are yours. That's why I think go by ears is not always the best approach, though it is obviously a major part of the equation.

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/svs-sbs-01-speaker-system-11-2005-part-3.html

http://www.audioholics.com/soundbar-and-satellite-speaker-reviews/svs-sbs-01/fit-and-finish-set-up-and-sound-quality

I will do these. Any thoughts on trying to swap this thing out for the Pioneer Elite SC-LX701 I linked? If we're talking a difference of only a few db or watts here that was enough to make the old system sing loudly and clearly and the new one to run out of gas a bit early, it could perhaps be the additional few watts per channel that the Pioneer offers that could better drive those low sensitivity speakers at my typical listening volumes. I kinda feel like dammit.. I should have just gone with my initial inclination and stuck with the brand and type I know can do the job, but I figured most AVR's at this price point should be able to deliver as needed... aye dios mio. And I don't even speak Spanish.

 

[PENG]

I will do these. Any thoughts on trying to swap this thing out for the Pioneer Elite SC-LX701 I linked? If we're talking a difference of only a few db or watts here that was enough to make the old system sing loudly and clearly and the new one to run out of gas a bit early, it could perhaps be the additional few watts per channel that the Pioneer offers that could better drive those low sensitivity speakers at my typical listening volumes. I kinda feel like dammit.. I should have just gone with my initial inclination and stuck with the brand and type I know can do the job, but I figured most AVR's at this price point should be able to deliver as needed... aye dios mio. And I don't even speak Spanish.

The LX701 is class D, albeit a new generation. I am going to have research that one and see if their are bench test data. By now I think you know I am not in the go by ears camp. Also, let me crunch some numbers now that I know your old Pioneer is the VSX-23TXH.

 

[Halon451]

The LX701 is class D, albeit a new generation. I am going to have research that one and see if their are bench test data. By now I think you know I am not in the go by ears camp. Also, let me crunch some numbers now that I know your old Pioneer is the VSX-23TXH.

I linked a bench test on the SC-95 which seems to be the same receiver, above. If that helps. Couldn't find one specifically for "SC-LX701". Not sure why different model numbers, they appear to be identical in just about every respect.

 

[Halon451]

The LX701 is class D, albeit a new generation. I am going to have research that one and see if their are bench test data. By now I think you know I am not in the go by ears camp. Also, let me crunch some numbers now that I know your old Pioneer is the VSX-23TXH.

So you don't have to go hunting for it: S&V Review/Bench Test Pioneer Elite SC-95

 

[PENG]

I will take a good look of the SC-95 and read up on the LX-701, but I got news for you on your old unit that the Marantz replaced.

The VSX-23TXH weighs only about 1 lb 12 oz more than the Marantz, not 10 lbs as mentioned in AH's review. It looks like Mr. Deboer might have used the total weight in the box by mistake.
http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/pioneer-electronics-vsx-23txh

If you go by the information from the Pioneer website, as well as their operating instructions, the VSX-23TXH wights 29 lbs 12 oz without package per operating instructions.

If you compare their power consumption figures, it is 400W for the Pioneer and 680W for the Marantz. There is no guarantee they go by the same rules but it does give you a good idea if you are comparing Pioneer to Pioneer or Marantz to Marantz AVRs. In other words, it helps if you are getting another Pioneer or another Marantz. On the other hand, you can't compare power consumption related figures between class AB and class D amps either even the units being compared are both Pioneer AVRs.

There are no available bench test data for the VSX-23 but I highly doubt it will be more powerful than the SR6011. I would actually bet the Marantz will be equal or better than the Pioneer in terms of power output into 8 and 4 ohms.