Mockery of the Office of President

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M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Here's how I see it from my limited time on the planet.

I'll start with Clinton. Many of his actions in office were lost on me since I was in jr. high and high school for most of his time in office. He screwed around with an intern and then lied about it to his wife and then to his whole country. Deplorable? Yes. Reason to be impeached? Yes, he lied under oath. Make him a bad president? No. One of the best things he did in office from my perspective was increased educational spending. As far as his administration raising government spending by 30% over his terms, the average rate of inflation in this country is approximately 4% a year give or take a touch. Is the figure adjusted for that inflation? If not his spending was right in line with inflation and should be commended, if not, what is it compared to other presidents? Taxes are how we pay for government actions. Without taxes we can't do anything such as support a military or Medicade. As far as being a dem or rep, I do consider myself a dem due to my lack of desire to be conservative in religious values, but other than that I'm completely open for anyone who can actually make a difference and not just run their head about this and that.

Bush I have quite a few more opinions on. I'll start with educational spending on him as well. "No child left behind" is the worst legislation to effect the education system in the country ever, IMO. It has destroyed free thinking and creativity. Teachers are forced to abandon original lessons and forms of education to teach to a MINIMUM SKILLS test. Is this seriously how we want the future of our country to turn out? A bunch of people that pass the minimum skills required by some congressman that went to prep school then ivy league? My wife is a teacher and I am a substitute teacher part time and all I can see is that these kids can add and subtract, spell and form sentences, and tell you the different parts of a cell, but couldn't problem solve their way out of a paper bag. Original thought is what our country is based on, for me I see free enterprise an off-shoot of this.

Now on to the war. I may back track some of the stuff I said in another thread, if I do, I apologize. Firstly I'll mention that the Bush administration gave as much notice to terror "intelligence" prior to 9/11 as the Clinton administration did, "let's keep an eye on it". There is always reports of this may happen and they might be planning this, but neither of these guys took these reports with much more than a noticing glance. Once 9/11 did happen, something needed to be done. I think no matter what side you are on you would agree with that. I see two major things that happened just about immediately after, the invasion of Iraq and the PATRIOT act. I'll start with the latter.

The PATRIOT act is and incredibly long and complex bill that I have never had the intestinal fortitude to read so I'll keep this topical. First off, if Toshiba had marketing directors as good as the guy who named this thing, HD-DVD would be kicking BD's *** all over the planet. It became a big sticking point whether you supported this act or not, seeing as Joe Sixpack would automatically call you a patriot if you did, and a traitor if you didn't. The reality of this piece of legislation is that it destroyed our civil liberties. Think you make private phone calls on your cell phone? Mention one of about 50 trigger words and it's automatically tapes. Think you or your house can't be searched without a warrant or probable cause? Try putting something online that the government might see as anti-American or even worse that they construe and helping the "enemy". Who makes the call on what is and isn't acceptable? Some people sitting in an office, probably near DC or Langley with the sense of humor of Sen. McCarthy. This is very saddening to me. While this act has gone a great distance to protect us from our collective adversaries, what has it done to protect the American people from the government? IMHO I feel that it has done more to destroy our freedoms than it has to protect us. I'll leave this at that.

As for the invasion of Iraq, Saddam was an evil man. He did many things in his life that I wish that I never even knew existed, but did he have anything to do with 9/11? Nope. None whatsoever. Were there terrorists in his country? Probably, there's a whole lot of empty area out there. Did he have intentions on attacking us? Some day, maybe, but as we found out afterwards, he lacked the means. Has the Iraq war done anything to waylay terrorists? Probably, they were forced to go into hiding and scatter to the wind. This is both good and bad. Good because there are fewer of them and are less organized, bad because finding them or any intelligence on their future plans will be even harder now since they are moving more and more to a "cell" type structure where only 5 people in the world knows what they are going to do.

Do I Clinton is better than Bush, sure. But I do take into account that Bush had a significantly tougher term in office, and I also think that through stubbornness on different stances Bush made it tougher on himself. I'll leave it there. Thanks for reading my treatise and I hope to hear what you guys have to say about this.

Mike
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Wrong again. His bogus war is the single biggest strike against him.
I was going to reply to this, but instead I stepped out on my porch and banged my head off the brick wall of my house several times. Same effect.:D
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
I was going to reply to this, but instead I stepped out on my porch and banged my head off the brick wall of my house several times. Same effect.:D
Hey no need to beat yourself up over it - some people just refuse to get it, Dave. :)
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Hey no need to beat yourself up over it - some people just refuse to get it, Dave. :)
Most people I know try to make the world a better place to live and treat people with kindness and/or respect even if they disagree. I think Joe may be the only person I know that considers hate a good thing and it's beginning to consume him. Nothing good can come of embracing hatred and defining yourself by that hatred.

Post 15
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Here's how I see it from my limited time on the planet.

I'll start with Clinton. Many of his actions in office were lost on me since I was in jr. high and high school for most of his time in office. He screwed around with an intern and then lied about it to his wife and then to his whole country. Deplorable? Yes. Reason to be impeached? Yes, he lied under oath. Make him a bad president? No. One of the best things he did in office from my perspective was increased educational spending. As far as his administration raising government spending by 30% over his terms, the average rate of inflation in this country is approximately 4% a year give or take a touch. Is the figure adjusted for that inflation? If not his spending was right in line with inflation and should be commended, if not, what is it compared to other presidents? Taxes are how we pay for government actions. Without taxes we can't do anything such as support a military or Medicade. As far as being a dem or rep, I do consider myself a dem due to my lack of desire to be conservative in religious values, but other than that I'm completely open for anyone who can actually make a difference and not just run their head about this and that.

Bush I have quite a few more opinions on. I'll start with educational spending on him as well. "No child left behind" is the worst legislation to effect the education system in the country ever, IMO. It has destroyed free thinking and creativity. Teachers are forced to abandon original lessons and forms of education to teach to a MINIMUM SKILLS test. Is this seriously how we want the future of our country to turn out? A bunch of people that pass the minimum skills required by some congressman that went to prep school then ivy league? My wife is a teacher and I am a substitute teacher part time and all I can see is that these kids can add and subtract, spell and form sentences, and tell you the different parts of a cell, but couldn't problem solve their way out of a paper bag. Original thought is what our country is based on, for me I see free enterprise an off-shoot of this.

Now on to the war. I may back track some of the stuff I said in another thread, if I do, I apologize. Firstly I'll mention that the Bush administration gave as much notice to terror "intelligence" prior to 9/11 as the Clinton administration did, "let's keep an eye on it". There is always reports of this may happen and they might be planning this, but neither of these guys took these reports with much more than a noticing glance. Once 9/11 did happen, something needed to be done. I think no matter what side you are on you would agree with that. I see two major things that happened just about immediately after, the invasion of Iraq and the PATRIOT act. I'll start with the latter.

The PATRIOT act is and incredibly long and complex bill that I have never had the intestinal fortitude to read so I'll keep this topical. First off, if Toshiba had marketing directors as good as the guy who named this thing, HD-DVD would be kicking BD's *** all over the planet. It became a big sticking point whether you supported this act or not, seeing as Joe Sixpack would automatically call you a patriot if you did, and a traitor if you didn't. The reality of this piece of legislation is that it destroyed our civil liberties. Think you make private phone calls on your cell phone? Mention one of about 50 trigger words and it's automatically tapes. Think you or your house can't be searched without a warrant or probable cause? Try putting something online that the government might see as anti-American or even worse that they construe and helping the "enemy". Who makes the call on what is and isn't acceptable? Some people sitting in an office, probably near DC or Langley with the sense of humor of Sen. McCarthy. This is very saddening to me. While this act has gone a great distance to protect us from our collective adversaries, what has it done to protect the American people from the government? IMHO I feel that it has done more to destroy our freedoms than it has to protect us. I'll leave this at that.

As for the invasion of Iraq, Saddam was an evil man. He did many things in his life that I wish that I never even knew existed, but did he have anything to do with 9/11? Nope. None whatsoever. Were there terrorists in his country? Probably, there's a whole lot of empty area out there. Did he have intentions on attacking us? Some day, maybe, but as we found out afterwards, he lacked the means. Has the Iraq war done anything to waylay terrorists? Probably, they were forced to go into hiding and scatter to the wind. This is both good and bad. Good because there are fewer of them and are less organized, bad because finding them or any intelligence on their future plans will be even harder now since they are moving more and more to a "cell" type structure where only 5 people in the world knows what they are going to do.

Do I Clinton is better than Bush, sure. But I do take into account that Bush had a significantly tougher term in office, and I also think that through stubbornness on different stances Bush made it tougher on himself. I'll leave it there. Thanks for reading my treatise and I hope to hear what you guys have to say about this.

Mike
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mike - while I certainly don't agree with you regarding Clinton, you're right on the money concerning education and the 'No Child Left Behind' act. I don't think it's fair to say a President is worthy of impeachment and is a good President all in the same breath. It's either one or the other as far as I'm concerned, and his actions IMO definitely were worth of impeachment, therefore he was not a good President.

Also, we're not facing a new era of McCarthyism here either. The threat we are facing is definitely real and should be treated with adequate respect. Not that the threat of communism in those days wasn't real, but Senator McCarthy ultimately created a modern day witchhunt and destroyed the lives and careers of many people who didn't deserve it. My take on the Patriot Act - and I'm no Joe Sixpack either - extreme situations call for extreme measures. Personally, I don't feel that it is a threat to my civil liberties if the feds are "listening in" on my conversations - I have nothing to hide, and I feel a sense of reassurance that even though my words and thoughts may not pose a threat, that along the same channel of communication, perhaps there is something nefarious going on, and that it has the potential to be stopped before more lives are lost. The second we stop paying attention, they're going to close in and it's going to be our a**. I will bet money on it. Bottom line, if you're not doing anything wrong then you have absolutely nothing to worry about - the government isn't after you, it's after those who want to kill you. Trust me, I truly wish we lived in a time or a day and age where this wasn't necessary, but until someone proposes a better way to monitor terrorist activities, it's all we've got - and shutting it down completely and saying "Oh well, it's a violation of civil liberties" and allowing these monsters to plan, coordinate and communicate within our own borders is going to be the day we're finished.
 
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Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Most people I know try to make the world a better place to live and treat people with kindness and/or respect even if they disagree. I think Joe may be the only person I know that considers hate a good thing and it's beginning to consume him. Nothing good can come of embracing hatred and defining yourself by that hatred.

Post 15
It's easier for people like that to spew hatred and nonsense when they have nothing worthwhile to say in the first place. Just think, these are the ones who are actually voting for Hillary and Obama... :rolleyes:
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
some people just refuse to get it, Dave. :)
There is nothing to "get". The only thing more fundamentally evil than war is pointless, avoidable war. That Texas cowboy riding over there with pistols blazing to administer his version of vigilante justice has accomplished nothing positive for anyone, least of all his own reputation.

When General Sherman said "War is hell", he wasn't being figurative.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Nobody deserves that Joe - grow up. As much as I can't stand Bill Clinton, he's still a human being. You tell me that you are free from fault, flaw and poor judgment, then you can hold others in contempt like that. But ah... I'm pretty sure you're not, so - oh well, right?
Unless you know the man personally, it's utter nonsense. Unlike Willie who put his personal life in front of the media, his actions revealed what he's like on a personal level. At least President Bush has been smart enough to keep most of his personal life private.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
There is nothing to "get". The only thing more fundamentally evil than war is pointless, avoidable war. That Texas cowboy riding over there with pistols blazing to administer his version of vigilante justice has accomplished nothing positive for anyone, least of all his own reputation.

When General Sherman said "War is hell", he wasn't being figurative.
Alright then, go ahead and light some candles, get out your guitar, (hug some trees while you're at it), and go join the hippie movement - oh... it appears as though you're about 45 years too late. :eek: Well, you have something in common with them anyway Joe - they were as out of touch with reality as you appear to be.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Alright then, go ahead and light some candles, get out your guitar, (hug some trees while you're at it), and go join the hippie movement - oh... it appears as though you're about 45 years too late. :eek: Well, you have something in common with them anyway Joe - they were as out of touch with reality as you appear to be.
The ideas underlying the hippie movement were entirely right. It is only because they dissapated their energy through drugs that they did not succeeed in improving the world. The saddest thing is that today's America is more like the Vietnam era that the hippies rightfully protested than it has ever been since then.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
The ideas underlying the hippie movement were entirely right. It is only because they dissapated their energy through drugs that they did not succeeed in improving the world. The saddest thing is that today's America is more like the Vietnam era that the hippies rightfully protested than it has ever been since then.
Actually the hippies didn't "disappeared", they run Hollywood, San Francisco and other parts of California now, some have made it to Washington where their brand of politics creates chaos. They're alive and well.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Also, we're not facing a new era of McCarthyism here either. The threat we are facing is definitely real and should be treated with adequate respect. Not that the threat of communism in those days wasn't real, but Senator McCarthy ultimately created a modern day witchhunt and destroyed the lives and careers of many people who didn't deserve it. My take on the Patriot Act - and I'm no Joe Sixpack either - extreme situations call for extreme measures. Personally, I don't feel that it is a threat to my civil liberties if the feds are "listening in" on my conversations - I have nothing to hide, and I feel a sense of reassurance that even though my words and thoughts may not pose a threat, that along the same channel of communication, perhaps there is something nefarious going on, and that it has the potential to be stopped before more lives are lost. The second we stop paying attention, they're going to close in and it's going to be our a**. I will bet money on it. Bottom line, if you're not doing anything wrong then you have absolutely nothing to worry about - the government isn't after you, it's after those who want to kill you. Trust me, I truly wish we lived in a time or a day and age where this wasn't necessary, but until someone proposes a better way to monitor terrorist activities, it's all we've got - and shutting it down completely and saying "Oh well, it's a violation of civil liberties" and allowing these monsters to plan, coordinate and communicate within our own borders is going to be the day we're finished.
You forget the the story of Mahar Arar.

And he wasn't the only one. Witch Hunt in the 50's, Extraordinary Rendition in the 00's.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Unless you know the man personally, it's utter nonsense. Unlike Willie who put his personal life in front of the media, his actions revealed what he's like on a personal level. At least President Bush has been smart enough to keep most of his personal life private.
Like being an alcoholic and user of cocaine?
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Alright then, go ahead and light some candles, get out your guitar, (hug some trees while you're at it), and go join the hippie movement - oh... it appears as though you're about 45 years too late. :eek: Well, you have something in common with them anyway Joe - they were as out of touch with reality as you appear to be.
Everything that is happening in Iraq, which drew out the terrorist would have all happened in Afghanistan. It's not like they sat back and said, hey lets go if they invade Iraq, but forget about those Afghani's :rolleyes:

All we ended up doing is creating a second front and dividing our efforts.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
When General Sherman said "War is hell", he wasn't being figurative.
Furthermore, if you're going to quote General Sherman, realize that the man waged more war in his little pinkie, than most people do in a lifetime, so if ANYONE has a right to declar 'War is Hell' then it should be him, and not the liberal masses who only see the world through rose colored lenses. :cool:
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Halon451,
thanks for the reply. I do see your point on Clinton being impeached making his presidency a bust. It's unfortunate that his term in office is completely marred by something that, if he had had the balls to just stand up and admit, had pretty much nothing to do with being president. Is it possible to be impeached and still be a good president, I believe so, look at the only other president in U.S. history to be impeached and tell me what you think. I also wasn't saying that we are entering another McCarthy-like witch hunt, and I hope nothing like that ever happens again. What I was getting at is that people in power positions can misconstrew (sp?) a lot of stuff from listening to snippets of conversations. Where is the line drawn? Where is the balancing force on this? Homeland Security, while they are doing a great job IMO, has a lot of power and does NOT have to answer to a lot of the procedures that are put in place to protect the innocent, such as the right to a lawyer and so forth. Where does this stop? I am not, as far as I can tell, a conspiracy theorist. I don't believe the government is out to get me but, as an old saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. You are right, extreme times do call for extreme measures, and I don't fear the g-man coming down on me, what I do fear is the fact that he can, for no reason, detain me for an undetermined amount of time without the use of the legal system if I happen to say something during a private phone conversation that they take as "suspicious". I guess I just don't like anyone to have that kind of power in our government, no matter who is at the helm. I do understand that this is an extremely difficult time in world as a whole and especially here in America. That could take me off on a completely new tangent about the Bush administration to the effect of "Other than protecting us from them, what could you remark on Bush's domestic contributions?" Sadly I have nothing positive to say about that, which in my mind is a huge problem. I feel a president should be more concerned with OUR starving children and OUR homeless. But I'll save that rant for another thread. Thanks again for reading.

Mike
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
You forget the the story of Mahar Arar.

And he wasn't the only one. Witch Hunt in the 50's, Extraordinary Rendition in the 00's.
Yeah, yeah... I know the story - keep in mind he was also arrested only a year after the attacks when America's nervous system was still severely frayed by 9/11. I know of Arabian people threatened in their businesses, and their homes - not by 'Special Removal Units', but by red-blooded Americans who were driven to the brink by what happened. I will be the first to say that such behavior is wrong and should be condemned, but we were wounded and lashing out.

Today we still see a higher level of suspicion placed on those who fit the description and/or have tangible ties to others already suspected of terrorist activities - it's not as much what you know as who you know in this game, and was one of the factors contributing to Maher's ordeal. I am sincerely regretful for anyone who has to endure that kind of torture, and do believe that we as Americans need to hold ourselves to a higher standard in the eyes of the world, but I swear to god as my witness - if we do have a known terrorist in captivity and he holds the knowledge that can save hundreds if not thousands of lives; whatever it freaking takes.............

But I'm no saint either, I'll be the first to admit.
 
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Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Unless you know the man personally, it's utter nonsense. Unlike Willie who put his personal life in front of the media, his actions revealed what he's like on a personal level. At least President Bush has been smart enough to keep most of his personal life private.
Clinton would be a blast to hang around with on weekends. Nothing but the finest liquor and women and if anybody asks, you didn't inhale.:D

Oh, and don't feel bad for Maher Arar...that guy just picked up $11.5 million from the Canadian government for his suffering during the incident.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Halon451,
thanks for the reply. I do see your point on Clinton being impeached making his presidency a bust. It's unfortunate that his term in office is completely marred by something that, if he had had the balls to just stand up and admit, had pretty much nothing to do with being president. Is it possible to be impeached and still be a good president, I believe so, look at the only other president in U.S. history to be impeached and tell me what you think. I also wasn't saying that we are entering another McCarthy-like witch hunt, and I hope nothing like that ever happens again. What I was getting at is that people in power positions can misconstrew (sp?) a lot of stuff from listening to snippets of conversations. Where is the line drawn? Where is the balancing force on this? Homeland Security, while they are doing a great job IMO, has a lot of power and does NOT have to answer to a lot of the procedures that are put in place to protect the innocent, such as the right to a lawyer and so forth. Where does this stop? I am not, as far as I can tell, a conspiracy theorist. I don't believe the government is out to get me but, as an old saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. You are right, extreme times do call for extreme measures, and I don't fear the g-man coming down on me, what I do fear is the fact that he can, for no reason, detain me for an undetermined amount of time without the use of the legal system if I happen to say something during a private phone conversation that they take as "suspicious". I guess I just don't like anyone to have that kind of power in our government, no matter who is at the helm. I do understand that this is an extremely difficult time in world as a whole and especially here in America. That could take me off on a completely new tangent about the Bush administration to the effect of "Other than protecting us from them, what could you remark on Bush's domestic contributions?" Sadly I have nothing positive to say about that, which in my mind is a huge problem. I feel a president should be more concerned with OUR starving children and OUR homeless. But I'll save that rant for another thread. Thanks again for reading.

Mike
I'll agree that the idea is a frightening one, but I feel that it's a necessary evil until we can come up with something better, plain and simple. Thousands, possibly millions of lives are at stake every single day, and those lives are ours, our families, and our children. No, we don't think about it, because we're too busy living in this bubble of denial despite the lessons of 9/11. Where is the line drawn? I honestly don't know, and I do hate the thought of innocent people being drawn into the fold - I never said the Patriot Act was the perfect remedy, but it's better than doing nothing at all, which is the fundamental reason behind why 9/11 happened in the first place.

Personally - (on Bush) - if the ONLY good thing he can be remembered for is protecting us from them, it should be noted that not one single American civilian has died on our soil since the attacks of 9/11. For that, and since we can't possibly know who or when any such attach would have occurred, it is my belief that without our diligence and fortitude, they would have occurred, and American lives would have been lost. For that, we can owe a big debt of gratitude to "Dubya".
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Oh, and don't feel bad for Maher Arar...that guy just picked up $11.5 million from the Canadian government for his suffering during the incident.
Hell, I'd let someone waterboard my sorry a** for half that! :D
 
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