Let's Talk Auto-Setup...To Audyssey or not to Audyssey?

[BWG707]

The microphone provided by Audyssey is spec'ed at +/- 2dB, which should be fine for most applications. It will be difficult to find a more accurate level measuring system than Audyssey without considerable expense and knowledge on how to use it. If you saw a big difference in levels there are couple possibilities:
1. Audyssey provided microphone problem. This is a known problem with some older Audyssey microphones (with the 805 at least). Sorry, no way to tell if it is a defective microphone other than replacing it. Fairly inexpensive from Club Onkyo.
2. Your reference SPL meter is wrong or you are using it incorrectly. Either is very likely based on my experience. With the Radio Shack SPL Meters it is very easy to get different readings every time you run setup. This is especially true when trying to measure the LFE channel. I do use my RS SPL Meter to record, and save, its results so if I ever expect a problem in the future I can do a quick SPL test to see if anything odd pops-up.

I appreciate your reply. To make things clear I just use the RS meter for level setting not plotting FR. The main thing about it is that since I've used the RS meter to set levels my system sounds much better. It sounds as it should. All the balances are more accurate. The channel levels weren't off by that much. And yes I have ran Aud. several times (got the same measurements) and I used the RS meter several times (and again got the same measurements). I am positive that I'm doing everything right. I would be willing to bet that the Aud. mic is not defective also. I've heard many, many people say the same thing, that speaker levels should be set with a SPL meter instead of using Aud. measurements. I don't think that my Aud. mic is defective, I believe that using a SPL meter is just more accurate (if used properly). I'm very meticulous with setting up everything. I use a mic stand, I take several measurements at different times, and the room is very quite (no interuptions, etc.). It works for me, and that's what counts.

 

[sptrout]

I appreciate your reply. To make things clear I just use the RS meter for level setting not plotting FR. The main thing about it is that since I've used the RS meter to set levels my system sounds much better. It sounds as it should. All the balances are more accurate. The channel levels weren't off by that much. And yes I have ran Aud. several times (got the same measurements) and I used the RS meter several times (and again got the same measurements). I am positive that I'm doing everything right. I would be willing to bet that the Aud. mic is not defective also. I've heard many, many people say the same thing, that speaker levels should be set with a SPL meter instead of using Aud. measurements. I don't think that my Aud. mic is defective, I believe that using a SPL meter is just more accurate (if used properly). I'm very meticulous with setting up everything. I use a mic stand, I take several measurements at different times, and the room is very quite (no interuptions, etc.). It works for me, and that's what counts.

Well, I agree with your first and last sentences (and maybe a couple others). I know that the RS SPL Meter has its fans and I have had two or three over the past 20 years or so and still have one handy about 3 feet from my AVR. Its rated accuracy is the same as the Audyssey microphone; +/-2dB, but that also means that there could be as much as a 4dB difference between the two at any given frequency and still be in spec. A couple things to consider:
1. Do a search for Radio Shack SPL Correction Tables; see how many you find. Please wait to I am offline before trying this because you may shutdown the Internet with all the hits you will get.
2. Read the experience of one of the heavy hitters over on AVS about what turned out to be a defective microphone for his 805. His early experiences seem very similar to what you describe. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19241994&postcount=21030

All in all the RS SPL Meter is fine for minor tuning and monitoring, if desired (except the LFE channel - - no way), but if you are finding big differences between Audyssey's channel level settings and a SPL meter then I would start looking for problems.

 

[jostenmeat]

I have MultEQ and while I do see fluctuations of a foot or so in the distances, the EQ (as limited by what my Marantz unit shows - 8 bands) is pretty consistent.

Heck, I'm sure there are lots of people with high dollar MultiEQ XT HT receivers who don't know what Audyssey is for or about.
I don't have a HT system, but I always disable Audyssey to compare speakers. Usually by using Pure Direct mode - but if I want to use the subwoofers, I have to manually turn it off.

It has been awhile since I've set my speaker levels with the SPL meter but from what I remember most channels wre set too low using Aud. I had to bump most channels up significately. There were off by quite abit, I don't know if I would say "horiffically off". Maybe you could borrow a SPL meter and check your results? Just to let you know I usually listen using PLIIx.

Perhaps I am incorrect, but I do believe that both the DB and distance settings are not absolute, but relative to each other.

As sptrout has mentioned, the Audyssey mics are said to be superior to the RS meters, namely with the bass.

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks very much for your comments and suggestions, and I agree that us 805 owners must stick together although there seems to be a lot of lucky souls around! I thought that I remembered reading somewhere that the 805 could be talked into going flat, but these Audyssey curve discussions always give me a headache and I usually get lost. Plus all the talk about the different listening modes just adds to my confusion. I have always just used plain, unmodified, listening modes (DTS HD-MA, TrueHD, etc.) because, for one reason, I was never convinced that in my system any of them helped.

What gets me in trouble with most of the listening modes are my two POS speakers that I use for channels 6 & 7. They are leftover ceiling speakers (not included in my signature BTW) from days gone by that are not only poor in AQ but in the wrong location for a 7.1 system. Therefore, I leave them off unless the source Blu-ray has a true 7.1 track then I leave them in the game (although I cannot say that I ever notice them). Long story, but I am stuck with these two speakers so I have to live with them or just turn them off.

So, I do not want to use speakers 6 & 7 if they degrade channels 4 & 5. This would seem to be the case in most listening modes as I understand them. Over on AVS I asked many months ago if there was a listening mode that would take a 5.1 audio track and convert it to 7.1 without degrading the audio from channels 4 & 5. As I recall one of the noted experts replied that he believed that the only mode that I could use to light-up speakers 6 & 7 without degrading, at least to some degree, channels 4 & 5 was PLIIX in the music mode. He added that when in the music mode the audio in channels 4 & 5 are not changed. I did try to do some research on exactly how channels 6 & 7 are derived from 4 & 5, but no luck; company secrets?? Anyway, I gave it a go, but I could not tell the difference.

With this long and very sad story, do you see any way for me to go flat (other than in a casket)? I guess I could just turn-off speakers 6 & 7 since they are useless anyway; would that open up some opportunities?

Actually, I really do not notice the roll-off anyway. Maybe my room is bright (likely), or my hearing is wayyyy flat by the time Audyssey starts the roll off (also likely). It just bugs me that if there is a simple way to make the system sound better I would like to use it (even if I cannot hear the difference - - others may, which is important).

Hey my pleasure. As for the rears, my advice is pretty simple and really is nothing new to offer, and you're actually doing it already: just go with what sounds good. If you don't care for them, don't care for them. Rear speakers are supposed to be subtle. Surrounds shouldn't call much attention to themselves, or be distracting in a significant way.

For flatness or lack thereof, you've mentioned the room, your ears, well maybe it could be the speakers. Last night I changed my defaults to PLIIX THX, and I could tell it was brighter. I think* I like it, but I can see it being possibly a bit more fatiguing. I do think I prefer it for now, but don't be surprised if I change my opinion next week.

If I wanted to know more about the technical details of all the matrixing algorithms, sdurani at AVS would be one of the first persons I would PM. If you do, I'd like to know what he says.

 

[sptrout]

Hey my pleasure. As for the rears, my advice is pretty simple and really is nothing new to offer, and you're actually doing it already: just go with what sounds good. If you don't care for them, don't care for them. Rear speakers are supposed to be subtle. Surrounds shouldn't call much attention to themselves, or be distracting in a significant way.

For flatness or lack thereof, you've mentioned the room, your ears, well maybe it could be the speakers. Last night I changed my defaults to PLIIX THX, and I could tell it was brighter. I think* I like it, but I can see it being possibly a bit more fatiguing. I do think I prefer it for now, but don't be surprised if I change my opinion next week.

If I wanted to know more about the technical details of all the matrixing algorithms, sdurani at AVS would be one of the first persons I would PM. If you do, I'd like to know what he says.

Thanks once again! Funny you should mention sdurani at AVS because I am almost sure that he was the person that said that the "music mode" was the only matrix mode that would not change the audio going to speakers 4 & 5.

I have found this over at "Ask Audyssey":
http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/93466-audyssey-onkyo-re-eq-button-feature-interaction

"Audyssey MultEQ creates room correction filters to two specific target curves. One is the Audyssey Reference curve that has a slight roll off in the high frequencies above 10 kHz that has to do with the translation required from a large movie theater to a smaller home listening room. The other is Flat that has no roll off. Some AVR makers decide to give the user a manual choice and others, like Onkyo, make the switch automatically.

Re-EQ is not an Onkyo function, it is part of THX. We recommend using the Flat room correction curve so that the intent of THX Re-EQ is preserved. Onkyo allows you to switch Re-EQ on and off separately from the other THX functions and so you could listen to Audyssey Flat if you turn off Re-EQ.

There is no interaction between the Re-EQ button and Audyssey. If you are in THX mode then you are listening to Audyssey Flat regardless of whether you have Re-EQ engaged. Of course, if you do have it engaged it applies a high frequency adjustment that takes you away from Flat. I recommend using Re-EQ with Audyssey Flat for movie listening.

There is no way to have Audyssey Flat in Onkyo products without having the THX mode engaged."

Looks like I am going to try THX tonight.

 

[BWG707]

Well, I agree with your first and last sentences (and maybe a couple others). I know that the RS SPL Meter has its fans and I have had two or three over the past 20 years or so and still have one handy about 3 feet from my AVR. Its rated accuracy is the same as the Audyssey microphone; +/-2dB, but that also means that there could be as much as a 4dB difference between the two at any given frequency and still be in spec. A couple things to consider:
1. Do a search for Radio Shack SPL Correction Tables; see how many you find. Please wait to I am offline before trying this because you may shutdown the Internet with all the hits you will get.
2. Read the experience of one of the heavy hitters over on AVS about what turned out to be a defective microphone for his 805. His early experiences seem very similar to what you describe. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19241994&postcount=21030

All in all the RS SPL Meter is fine for minor tuning and monitoring, if desired (except the LFE channel - - no way), but if you are finding big differences between Audyssey's channel level settings and a SPL meter then I would start looking for problems.

After reading the AVS thread I sounds like maybe my mic is defective. I had the same exact experience. Thanks for that link.

 

[KEW]

Perhaps I am incorrect, but I do believe that both the DB and distance settings are not absolute, but relative to each other.

That makes lots of sense, as long as the sound arrives at the listening position at the same time, I don't care if another 2 ms delay is added!
Next time I play with mine, I'll pay attention to relative distances to check for consistency.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

It has been awhile since I've set my speaker levels with the SPL meter but from what I remember most channels wre set too low using Aud. I had to bump most channels up significately. There were off by quite abit, I don't know if I would say "horiffically off". Maybe you could borrow a SPL meter and check your results? Just to let you know I usually listen using PLIIx.

Funny thing is, Audyssey set my channels low as well -- and I have read all over the forums that most folks' systems set by Audyssey are almost always adjusted in the "-dB" range (of course this is supposed to be based on relation to listening position) and thus they complain of this "lack of power" during soundtrack playback.

I have always run my channel trims in the "+dB" range for this reason.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

1. Yes, you can turn this off if you do not like the results.

Okay...

2. Yes, at least with my 805 I can adjust the tone from either the front panel or from the remote control using the OSD. As I mentioned earlier (I think) I have not actually tried this (I admit it, I'm chicken).

I can adjust Bass and Treble from the OSD on my 605 as well, but I just didn't understand how playing with these would compensate for Audyssey's EQ not running -- unless I misunderstood you?

Are you suggesting bass and treble enhancements may shape the sound a certain way as to help us forget about the EQ Audyssey simulates?

3. Sorry, but I mentioned it only because many people do not know that their are more flavors of Audyssey than Baskin Robbins has ice cream.

No worries -- just wanted to let you know that I am fully aware that I am in possession of the version that sucks the most...

4. I have no idea why you are getting different results every time you run Audyssey. I do not remember having a problem like this when I setup my 805 at least for the items that were reported on the OSD (distances, crossovers).

Well, that makes two of us...

5. The reason that I mentioned the lack of capability of 2EQ is that if you do not include basic set up parameters that can be easily manually set (distances, crossovers (once they are determined by Audyssey), then the only thing left is the 1x filter resolution of the satellites. Since you do not like the results of the EQ'ing of the satellites, then Audyssey is not really doing you any good at this time. Based on all your comments and other folks suggestions, I think you may have a hardware/software problem. Since it is an older model, and therefore, likely out of warranty, you may be stuck. Replacement may be the only solution. If you decide to go down that road do not give up on models that feature Audyssey; most people find that it can improve a system's performance.

A couple of things here...

Why do you say that certain parameters can be set manually (such as distances and crossovers) and then go on to add "once determined by Audyssey"? If I set these parameters manually myself (which I do) then why would Audyssey's auto routine matter?

You also mention the system's filtering of the "satellites" or "EQing" of the satellites -- are you saying that Audyssey only adjusts EQ on the surround channels of a system, and not the mains or center? I take "satellites" to mean rear channels -- unless, again, I misunderstood you...

Finally, I don't understand why you feel I may have a software or hardware issue; it's been determined that my version of Audyssey is really limited in its processing abilities, so isn't it possible that it's these limitations I am experiencing?

Thanks for your ongoing assistance.

 

[sptrout]

Okay...



1. I can adjust Bass and Treble from the OSD on my 605 as well, but I just didn't understand how playing with these would compensate for Audyssey's EQ not running -- unless I misunderstood you?

Are you suggesting bass and treble enhancements may shape the sound a certain way as to help us forget about the EQ Audyssey simulates?


A couple of things here...

2. Why do you say that certain parameters can be set manually (such as distances and crossovers) and then go on to add "once determined by Audyssey"? If I set these parameters manually myself (which I do) then why would Audyssey's auto routine matter?

3. You also mention the system's filtering of the "satellites" or "EQing" of the satellites -- are you saying that Audyssey only adjusts EQ on the surround channels of a system, and not the mains or center? I take "satellites" to mean rear channels -- unless, again, I misunderstood you...

4. Finally, I don't understand why you feel I may have a software or hardware issue; it's been determined that my version of Audyssey is really limited in its processing abilities, so isn't it possible that it's these limitations I am experiencing?

Thanks for your ongoing assistance.

1. I thought that one of your issues was the Audyssey Reference Curve roll off of the upper frequencies ("blanket over speakers"). In Onkyo Products it is difficult to sometimes nearly impossible to get an Audyssey "Flat" curve (I have since found out that it is possible with THX Onkyo products, but a kind of a pain). Over on AVS someone suggested that the a user adjust the treble control a couple dB to see if that help come over that problem. Really just a suggestion in your case. (EDIT: I am going nuts! I just checked back through my earlier posts and noticed that the 605 does have a "Flat" curve. So never mind.....)

2. We used to have to set the speaker distances manually (with a tape measure) and we still can very easily. Almost the same with the crossovers; check the speaker spec's and set the crossover at some point north of the -3dB point. Not very precise, but no choice in the old days (what, 5 years ago). Now Audyssey will send to the AVR's processor the frequency response of each speaker and then the AVR sets the crossovers accordingly (not very well as we all know). If this is one of the parameters that keeps changing (I do not remember if you mentioned this or not) then it could be because of a serious problem, or that a speaker (or pair of speakers) are testing right on the edge of specific crossover point and the measured frequency response changes just enough so the AVR selects a new crossover frequency. Again, just "thinking out loud."

3. Audyssey "talk" is that all speakers in a system except the subwoofer are called "satellites." If you read Audyssey's web page they mention satellite speakers all the time. This confused me a couple times until I realized what they were talking about, and now it is very common to use this term.

4. Yep, could be. Since I have no personal experience with the 605 I am only trying to understand your concerns and try to help. Not sure that I have helped much. Audyssey can become very complicated. Just check the Audyssey thread over on AVS; it has over 33,000 replies. On that same thought, have you checked the 605 thread on AVS? It only has 10,000 replies. You may want to post your primary question over on one of those two threads and see what pops-up. I do not like recommending other boards while writing on another (some forums forbid it to the pont of deleting posts without giving a reason), but in this case, it may be the best place for you to find an answer. (One nice thing about the Audyssey thread on AVS is that the CTO of Audyssey posts there nearly every day and he does have answers!)

 

[PearlcorderS701]

1. I thought that one of your issues was the Audyssey Reference Curve roll off of the upper frequencies ("blanket over speakers"). In Onkyo Products it is difficult to sometimes nearly impossible to get an Audyssey "Flat" curve (I have since found out that it is possible with THX Onkyo products, but a kind of a pain). Over on AVS someone suggested that the a user adjust the treble control a couple dB to see if that help come over that problem. Really just a suggestion in your case. (EDIT: I am going nuts! I just checked back through my earlier posts and noticed that the 605 does have a "Flat" curve. So never mind.....)

LOL...thank you for your ongoing stringent support and research for me; I know this stuff can get overtly daunting!

I understand what you are saying now about adjusting the Treble control to overcome the highs rolloff...

2. We used to have to set the speaker distances manually (with a tape measure) and we still can very easily. Almost the same with the crossovers; check the speaker spec's and set the crossover at some point north of the -3dB point. Not very precise, but no choice in the old days (what, 5 years ago). Now Audyssey will send to the AVR's processor the frequency response of each speaker and then the AVR sets the crossovers accordingly (not very well as we all know). If this is one of the parameters that keeps changing (I do not remember if you mentioned this or not) then it could be because of a serious problem, or that a speaker (or pair of speakers) are testing right on the edge of specific crossover point and the measured frequency response changes just enough so the AVR selects a new crossover frequency. Again, just "thinking out loud."

I understand, and thank you for clarifying this for me -- indeed, now that you bring it up, I am uncertain if the crossover points were one of the parameters that were constantly changing with every run of Audyssey on my 605...

At any rate, the bottom line is...would you consider it "okay" or "suitable" for some of us to physically and personally/manually enter trim levels, distances and crossover points ourselves rather than let an auto setup routine do it -- if we know where these should be set? In other words, I have measured the distances between my sweet spot and each speaker via a tape measure, and have entered those exactly spot-on into my 605's setup menu...I have also determined the crossover points for my Polk RTi12 mains (60Hz, based on recommendations from Polk Forum members and customer support personnel for these large tower speakers), CSi30 center (80Hz) and the in-ceiling surrounds (80Hz) although I am having some issues with the in-ceiling SpeakerCrafts running at 80Hz...seems to be a bit too low for them...

Given this scenario, do I necessarily have to rely on the autosetup?

3. Audyssey "talk" is that all speakers in a system except the subwoofer are called "satellites." If you read Audyssey's web page they mention satellite speakers all the time. This confused me a couple times until I realized what they were talking about, and now it is very common to use this term.

Okay; that makes more sense in the context of our conversation! Indeed, I don't call all speakers "satellites" even though Audyssey might -- to me, satellites are surround channels, usually small in size...

4. Yep, could be. Since I have no personal experience with the 605 I am only trying to understand your concerns and try to help. Not sure that I have helped much. Audyssey can become very complicated. Just check the Audyssey thread over on AVS; it has over 33,000 replies. On that same thought, have you checked the 605 thread on AVS? It only has 10,000 replies. You may want to post your primary question over on one of those two threads and see what pops-up. I do not like recommending other boards while writing on another (some forums forbid it to the pont of deleting posts without giving a reason), but in this case, it may be the best place for you to find an answer. (One nice thing about the Audyssey thread on AVS is that the CTO of Audyssey posts there nearly every day and he does have answers!)

I've gone through the 10,000-reply thread at AVS, and even contacted the Audyssey rep you speak of, Chris; I appreciate your ongoing assistance, truly.

 

[sptrout]

At any rate, the bottom line is...would you consider it "okay" or "suitable" for some of us to physically and personally/manually enter trim levels, distances and crossover points ourselves rather than let an auto setup routine do it -- if we know where these should be set? In other words, I have measured the distances between my sweet spot and each speaker via a tape measure, and have entered those exactly spot-on into my 605's setup menu...I have also determined the crossover points for my Polk RTi12 mains (60Hz, based on recommendations from Polk Forum members and customer support personnel for these large tower speakers), CSi30 center (80Hz) and the in-ceiling surrounds (80Hz) although I am having some issues with the in-ceiling SpeakerCrafts running at 80Hz...seems to be a bit too low for them...

Given this scenario, do I necessarily have to rely on the autosetup?


I've gone through the 10,000-reply thread at AVS, and even contacted the Audyssey rep you speak of, Chris; I appreciate your ongoing assistance, truly.

Have to rely on auto setup results? Nope, and as you have probably read, many folks do not (but more than likely for the wrong reasons). With the exception of the crossovers, the AVR's results for speaker distances should be right on target. The exception to this is the subwoofer distance, which IS NOT the tape measure distance. If you have not already read why this is the case, I think it is covered in "Ask Audyssey" and in the AVS Audyssey Forum about 1,000 times.

Crossovers setting can be changed, but do not go below what the AVR has set because you may drop below what Audyssey has EQ'ed. Remember Audyssey only does its EQ work down to the -3dB point of the frequency response that it measures. Where this becomes a real issue is that in Onkyo Products any speaker that measures at least -3dB at 80Hz is set to "large" so if you decided to drop your crossover to any frequency below 80Hz you risk dropping out of Audyssey's EQ range. I have a similar situation as you do. My 805 set all my speakers to "large" even though I know that they are not and even they were "large" capable I would not set the crossover to large. So I started at 80Hz, which I knew for sure would be OK, and then later dropped my mains (Infinity Beta 50's) to 60Hz. I should be OK, but it is possible that I have dropped below the measured frequency response of those speakers in my room. If it was not for the fact that my subwoofer is behind my seating area I would have left them at 80Hz, but I want as much bass as possible up front and reduce sub localization. It is all one big experiment!

So you contacted Chris, the audio man. If you have not already, read his bio on Audyssey's web page. Very impressive background! If he says anything about audio, I am going to listen (no pun intended).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...I have found after doing exhaustive testing and A/Bing back and forth between non-Audyssey'ed audio on this particular AVR, that I prefer the sound without Audyssey engaged nor without its channel level settings...

What are your thoughts?

Yeah, just like anything else, we will have different opinions.

But I agree with you 100%.

I've also tried Audyssey on both my Denon 5308 & AVP-A1HD and I think Room Corrections and EQs suck.

I like PURE DIRECT mode only.

I think the biggest issues are the speakers. Some speakers just don't require all that work and hassle.

Some rooms are problematic, but I think most rooms are just fine.

 

[jostenmeat]

Yeah, just like anything else, we will have different opinions.

But I agree with you 100%.

I've also tried Audyssey on both my Denon 5308 & AVP-A1HD and I think Room Corrections and EQs suck.

I like PURE DIRECT mode only.

I think the biggest issues are the speakers. Some speakers just don't require all that work and hassle.

Some rooms are problematic, but I think most rooms are just fine.

I'm not surprised, as this is coming from the guy who likes to have 20-80hz boosted by a whopping 6db.

Crap, if I had either* the AVP or the 5308, there would be an Audyssey Pro Kit already on the way by mail to my place. The 5308 is the only receiver that I know of, from any brand, that can support Audyssey Pro. Grrrrrrrr. You suck!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm not surprised, as this is coming from the guy who likes to have 20-80hz boosted by a whopping 6db.

Crap, if I had either* the AVP or the 5308, there would be an Audyssey Pro Kit already on the way by mail to my place. The 5308 is the only receiver that I know of, from any brand, that can support Audyssey Pro. Grrrrrrrr. You suck!

I love good strong clean wall-shaking bass.

As long as the whooping 6dB is done by the speakers and not the receiver/AVP, I'm okay with that.

I bet Siegfried Linkwitz and Peter Aczel (The Audio Critic) do NOT believe in Audyssey and Room Corrections either.

When you have great speakers, you don't need no stinking corrections.

 

[jostenmeat]

I love good strong clean wall-shaking bass.

As long as the whooping 6dB is done by the speakers and not the receiver/AVP, I'm okay with that.

Are your speakers really that inaccurate, or did you shove them into the corners?

I bet Siegfried Linkwitz and Peter Aczel (The Audio Critic) do NOT believe in Audyssey and Room Corrections either.

Perhaps not, and they also probably don't believe in room treatments either. However, they also probably give the proper amount of space between speakers and boundaries, as in at least a few feet if not more. Do they set up their mch systems in the same way?

When you have great speakers, you don't need no stinking corrections.

There are many who disagree with you, including those with extremely nice speakers.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Have to rely on auto setup results? Nope, and as you have probably read, many folks do not (but more than likely for the wrong reasons).

What do you mean -- like real beginners in the hobby who don't bother setting any channel, distance or crossover settings?

With the exception of the crossovers, the AVR's results for speaker distances should be right on target. The exception to this is the subwoofer distance, which IS NOT the tape measure distance. If you have not already read why this is the case, I think it is covered in "Ask Audyssey" and in the AVS Audyssey Forum about 1,000 times.

Yes, I understand the subwoofer issue with regard to the distance settings -- but are you saying that if we don't rely on the auto setup systems to calibrate, the subwoofer distance doing it via tape measure is completely inaccurate?

Crossovers setting can be changed, but do not go below what the AVR has set because you may drop below what Audyssey has EQ'ed. Remember Audyssey only does its EQ work down to the -3dB point of the frequency response that it measures. Where this becomes a real issue is that in Onkyo Products any speaker that measures at least -3dB at 80Hz is set to "large" so if you decided to drop your crossover to any frequency below 80Hz you risk dropping out of Audyssey's EQ range. I have a similar situation as you do. My 805 set all my speakers to "large" even though I know that they are not and even they were "large" capable I would not set the crossover to large. So I started at 80Hz, which I knew for sure would be OK, and then later dropped my mains (Infinity Beta 50's) to 60Hz. I should be OK, but it is possible that I have dropped below the measured frequency response of those speakers in my room. If it was not for the fact that my subwoofer is behind my seating area I would have left them at 80Hz, but I want as much bass as possible up front and reduce sub localization. It is all one big experiment!

I know about the "below Audyssey's setting" dilemma with regard to crossover as well -- my 605 always feeds info to the Audyssey algorithm, no matter how many times I run it, that my fronts are Full Range (which, if looking at them, would make sense as they're huge floorstanders), and I have always kicked this up to 60Hz...so would this equal following the rule of "not going below" the auto setup crossover point?

Another thing that has always bothered me -- it's said that Audyssey is actually not setting the crossovers inside an AVR, and that it's "following" an algorithm set down by the AVR manufacturer, but then why does everyone refer to Audyssey when they explain that we shouldn't drop our crossovers lower than what "Audyssey set it to"?

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Yeah, just like anything else, we will have different opinions.

But I agree with you 100%.

I've also tried Audyssey on both my Denon 5308 & AVP-A1HD and I think Room Corrections and EQs suck.

I like PURE DIRECT mode only.

I think the biggest issues are the speakers. Some speakers just don't require all that work and hassle.

Some rooms are problematic, but I think most rooms are just fine.

Indeed; thanks for your feedback.

Why exactly did you not like the room corrections and EQ on your Denons? What was it that bothered you about the sound? Just curious...

You run every signal from your sources in PURE DIRECT? This applies to Dolby Digital/DTS/Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio codecs?

 

[sptrout]

1. What do you mean -- like real beginners in the hobby who don't bother setting any channel, distance or crossover settings?

2. Yes, I understand the subwoofer issue with regard to the distance settings -- but are you saying that if we don't rely on the auto setup systems to calibrate, the subwoofer distance doing it via tape measure is completely inaccurate?

3. I know about the "below Audyssey's setting" dilemma with regard to crossover as well -- my 605 always feeds info to the Audyssey algorithm, no matter how many times I run it, that my fronts are Full Range (which, if looking at them, would make sense as they're huge floorstanders), and I have always kicked this up to 60Hz...so would this equal following the rule of "not going below" the auto setup crossover point?

Another thing that has always bothered me -- it's said that Audyssey is actually not setting the crossovers inside an AVR, and that it's "following" an algorithm set down by the AVR manufacturer, but then why does everyone refer to Audyssey when they explain that we shouldn't drop our crossovers lower than what "Audyssey set it to"?

1. Sure, nothing wrong with setting the basic stuff manually, we use to have no choice. That is one reason it is no big deal to me if the distance setting, for example, is off a couple feet. Change it. In reality, you would probaby never know the diffence anyway. I use to have a Samsung P1400 Blu-ray player connected via analog cables to a Denon 3300. When using analog inputs of older AVRs, the audio completely bypasses all digital processing including bass management; off loading this to the source of the audio. The P1400 analog bass management was real basic; your only option was to specify the number of speakers and if they were large or small (which meant only a 100Hz crossover setting for all speakers). Notice a couple things missing? No distance settings, or 10-15dB LFE level boost. What a pain; wrong crossover frequencies and no distance settings and nothing I could do about it except live with it or replace the AVR (I did) and later the player.

2. Well, again up until a few years ago we had the tape measure and that was what we used. According to Audyssey there is a better way. Will a person notice the difference???

3. Audyssey measures the frequency response of each speaker and reports its findings to the AVR which then decides what crossover frequencies to use. This really PO's the Audyssey folks since many manufacturers screw this up. Hopefully, newer models are finally getting it right. Remember that Audyssey measures the frequency response down to the -3dB point and does its EQ'ing thing only down to that frequency. Therefore, if you set your crossovers below that point you will be out of Audyssey's EQ range into never never land.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Indeed; thanks for your feedback.

Why exactly did you not like the room corrections and EQ on your Denons? What was it that bothered you about the sound? Just curious...

You run every signal from your sources in PURE DIRECT? This applies to Dolby Digital/DTS/Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD Master Audio codecs?

Well, with other receivers, I find the sound from Room Corrections to sound "congested" or something.

With the Denon 5308 & AVP-A1, it doesn't sound differently from Pure Direct at all. So I'm thinking, why bother if it sounds identical?

And if we look at all the measurements done on Home Theater Mag or Audioholics, we see that they are done in Direct Mode for the Cleanest Best Possible sound.

Yes, all of my sounda, including DD, DTS, TrueHD, & DTS-HD MA, DSD SACD, & DVD-A, are in Pure Direct mode.

The only time I ever use any kind of EQ is when the SQ sucks - like in my car.

The SQ from my Home Theater System sounds great, and EQs from my 5308 & AVP-A1 make absolutely no difference whatsoever.