Is it worth diving into SACD and DVD-A?

[TLS Guy]

Is there any sign that there will be audio only BD discs coming out in these new formats (not that I understand any of the multi-channel aspects just yet)?

I wish that somebody would start carrying on with the promise that was started with SACD!

There already are a few around especially from Scandinavia. I note in the Gramophone that new releases of SACD have come to a virtual halt. I understand that there are BD only releases in the pipe line.

The record companies are nervous, as they lost their shirts on SACD. SACD is costly and very awkward from a production point of view. Actually it should never have seen the light of day, even though it can give very good results. However to get really good results with SACD you have to go to enormous lengths, which very few people do.

BD will be much more consumer friendly, as long as players come on the market, were the audio menu can be selected from a screen on the player.

So far all BD audio discs have to have a TV in the system to select two channel or the multichannel version. A lot of systems are audio only, so this issue will have to be resolved somehow.

 

[Alex2507]

Why should they back off? It would make sense to have one carrier for hard copy.

I don't believe there will ever be one anything for anything. I can successfully play SACD and DVD-A with the gear that I have. I'm irked that the technology shifts every few years requiring new gear ... like an HDMI rec'r in this particular case.

It would save big money to have one hard copy music carrier.

The spend to save scenario is killing me.

If you convert SACD to PCM the surround information is sent to the wrong speakers, as SACD has a different speaker layout from Dolby digital.

I still don't know what the highlighted part really means but a Google search for the layout on SACD and Dolby Digital produced the same angles for a seating distance of 8' - 12'.

SACD has always been a problem child and needs to become a foot note to audio history ...

Watching stuff come and go is making me nuts. I like SACD and DVD-A just fine. Killing it off for something new means I need something new (HDMI rec'r). Then they'll kill off HDMI because it sucks and I'll need something new again. I can't keep up. Good news is that the AES is probably powerless. I mean I doubt they pushed for the MP3 but look around.

I've only been interested in this for a short time. If I had watched things come and go for 25 years I would have lost my marble but good by now.

 

[Cristofori]

There already are a few around especially from Scandinavia. I note in the Gramophone that new releases of SACD have come to a virtual halt. I understand that there are BD only releases in the pipe line.

Thanks for the info. You write for the Gramophone! Am I misunderstanding something here?

As far as classical goes, I still see new SACD's all the time, so I wasn't aware that they had come to a halt. Unless this just hasn't trickled down to me yet.

Too bad if that's the case, so I hope BD or something similar carries on. In this day of age, EVERYTHING could be at least as good as SACD.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't believe there will ever be one anything for anything. I can successfully play SACD and DVD-A with the gear that I have. I'm irked that the technology shifts every few years requiring new gear ... like an HDMI rec'r in this particular case.



The spend to save scenario is killing me.



I still don't know what the highlighted part really means but a Google search for the layout on SACD and Dolby Digital produced the same angles for a seating distance of 8' - 12'.



Watching stuff come and go is making me nuts. I like SACD and DVD-A just fine. Killing it off for something new means I need something new (HDMI rec'r). Then they'll kill off HDMI because it sucks and I'll need something new again. I can't keep up. Good news is that the AES is probably powerless. I mean I doubt they pushed for the MP3 but look around.

I've only been interested in this for a short time. If I had watched things come and go for 25 years I would have lost my marble but good by now.

The issue of the speaker layout is important Alex. SACD can support up to five channels and a sub. However no classical SACDs I have ever seen have a sub channel.

Now the Dolby/DTS layout has the three fronts and so does SACD. In Dolby digital the surrounds are at the sides, optimally just behind the listener. For SACD the surround channels are in the position of widely spaced speakers in the rear of the room. Just like I have mine, and that is why.

Now when you convert to PCM the rear channels are placed on these speakers.

That is not correct for SACD and makes an absolute mess of antiphonal SACDs. So that means using the analog inputs, so you can plug the surround out to the correct surround input.

I should add that have have quite a few SACD discs now where the rear speakers have to be as capable as the right and left fronts, otherwise results would be severely compromised. I expect the same will apply to BD discs. In fact at least for classical multichannel all speakers are going to have to have a similar excellent tonal balance and capability.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the info. You write for the Gramophone! Am I misunderstanding something here?

As far as classical goes, I still see new SACD's all the time, so I wasn't aware that they had come to a halt. Unless this just hasn't trickled down to me yet.

Too bad if that's the case, so I hope BD or something similar carries on. In this day of age, EVERYTHING could be at least as good as SACD.

You are misunderstanding. I'm a subscriber to Gramophone. SACD releases seem to be getting fewer by the month.

I think BD discs will be better and much easier to implement. There is a huge push on in Europe to switch to BD audio now.

 

[sgtpepper9]

I think this is exactly opposite of what I want and enjoy most about SACD or DVDA........the sense of space is what I want, goofy affects I find odd and many times annoying. I have no use for a guitar player jumping from speaker to speaker and vocals shift from front to back but everyone has a different idea on what pleasing. I would say in general if you have not got in the game its harder to start cause the discs often times get more expensive and harder to find.

Have you listened to The Flaming Lips DVD-A albums? Specifically The Soft Bulletin and Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots (At War with the Mystics is a let down)? The DSoTM surround mix? I would hardly say they use "goofy" effects. It's not like the mix engineers just move sounds around the room all willy-nilly with no rhyme or reason.

What is wrong with the chopped up acoustic guitar on the intro to the track "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots Pt. 1"? When the vocals move from the rear to the front at a critical juncture on "Suddenly Everything Has Changed"? The sound of the cash registers coming from different places on "Money"? All these uses of the surround channels enhance the mix as far as I'm concerned.

I just have a hard time hearing someone totally dismiss a mix because the guitar doesn't stay in the Right Stereo channel the entire song. If all the sound is going to be static, what's the point? You can get the same "sense of space" from redbook.

I agree with you, that yes, it would be annoying if the mix just moves the instruments all around the room for no particular reason. For the most part though, there are very few artist that actually go through all the trouble it takes to mix a multichannel album and I have yet to hear a surround album that paned the instruments around so much that it was annoying. Could you recommend some to me?

 

[Cristofori]

I don't believe there will ever be one anything for anything. I can successfully play SACD and DVD-A with the gear that I have. I'm irked that the technology shifts every few years requiring new gear ... like an HDMI rec'r in this particular case.



The spend to save scenario is killing me.



I still don't know what the highlighted part really means but a Google search for the layout on SACD and Dolby Digital produced the same angles for a seating distance of 8' - 12'.



Watching stuff come and go is making me nuts. I like SACD and DVD-A just fine. Killing it off for something new means I need something new (HDMI rec'r). Then they'll kill off HDMI because it sucks and I'll need something new again. I can't keep up. Good news is that the AES is probably powerless. I mean I doubt they pushed for the MP3 but look around.

I've only been interested in this for a short time. If I had watched things come and go for 25 years I would have lost my marble but good by now.

Your post pretty much sums up my feelings exactly, which is why I stick with good old fashioned 2-channel, which has a definable standard, is user friendly, and has a plethora of excellent equipment choices easily available, both new and used. SACD and DVD is about as far as I go with the newer technology. Blueray is something that I would like to get into, if only because I can still play regular DVD's in the players (I think) if the format goes the way of the dodo.

It's not that I'm against "progress", it's just that it changes so fast I don't even have the desire to keep up with it anymore even if I could afford it! As soon as we approach some kind of standard with something, then BAM! ... the whole game starts all over again.

I'm a bit older now, and have other interests and things going on to be dealing with the headache (and walletache) that is the modern A/V world.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't have a player compatable with these formats nor do I own and of these formats. I'm quite happy with the CDs and vinyl that I own. Am I missing out on something? Does it really add realism to the music like 5.1 did to movies/films. I really enjoy the imaging and lifeliek soundstage from my two channels.

I guess now that some BD is audio only and SACD has come to a virtual stop, I would place my bets on BD multi channel. If I get into that audio line, I can always take my HP computer screen that has an HDMI on it to select from the menu; easier than turning on the projector just for that and lighter than some of the TV I have

 

[Alex2507]

The surround channels get listed as 110 degrees in this Google search result which is the same as the Dolby recommendation. My player has a small/large speaker selector that crosses at 100Hz and the newer versions that I mentioned cross at 80Hz. I was using 6 analog connections to the rec'r so that worked for me.

At the same time that I'm not running an ideal system, I'm not in an ideal room but it works and I am able to enjoy multi channel music just fine. I know you can't fight city hall but I don't have to like the constant shifting technology.

If this keeps up I'm gonna go back to watching a 27" CRT and playing LP's.

EDIT: I'm half way there!

 

[Cristofori]

You are misunderstanding. I'm a subscriber to Gramophone. SACD releases seem to be getting fewer by the month.

I think BD discs will be better and much easier to implement. There is a huge push on in Europe to switch to BD audio now.

Hey... nice rear view of that room! From the other frontal photos I've seen, it looked more like just a large collection of various audio gear than a listening/home theater room. I wasn't sure if you actually used it for HT.

I love the classical LP's and box sets back there! Although the photo is a bit fuzzy, I can make out what some of the labels are. I've got good practice at that squinting at various fuzzy photos of record collections for upcoming estate sales.

One question... why so many reel to reels?

 

[TLS Guy]

The surround channels get listed as 110 degrees in this Google search result which is the same as the Dolby recommendation. My player has a small/large speaker selector that crosses at 100Hz and the newer versions that I mentioned cross at 80Hz. I was using 6 analog connections to the rec'r so that worked for me.

At the same time that I'm not running an ideal system, I'm not in an ideal room but it works and I am able to enjoy multi channel music just fine. I know you can't fight city hall but I don't have to like the constant shifting technology.

If this keeps up I'm gonna go back to watching a 27" CRT and playing LP's.

EDIT: I'm half way there!

The problem comes about with 7.1 systems Alex.

If you convert an SACD to PCM in a 7.1 system so you can use speaker and bass management the surround channels are sent to SL and SR instead of SBL and SBR. For SACD SBL and SBR should be widely spaced. SL and SR should be silent.

If you have a 5.1 system then there is only one set of surrounds where the signal can go. However for SACD those speakers should be in the back of the room. The Google reference is a little misleading.

 

[Alex2507]

The Google reference is a little misleading.

That's no surprise. I've never seen a rear surround recommendation with the speakers so close before. My room is a normal living room with the couch against the back wall and the surrounds mounted at ~95 degrees pointed down and forward to intersect in front of the listening position ... not ideal. It's a matter of what is affordable/acceptable/enjoyable. Most folks don't share your demanding standards.

In regards to the OP's question my answer is that for under $150 you can get a player and 6 analog RCA cables to make it work with a rec'r with 6/8 channel in. Providing his expectations are in line with mine he will be in for a treat. My favorite is a DVD-A of Barenboim conducting I forget what orchestra playing Beethovens 9th. I have Pink Floyd and Dire Straits too. I'll let you borrow them to expand your horizons.

Does your Rotel 1098 not have the analog inputs?

 

[TLS Guy]

That's no surprise. I've never seen a rear surround recommendation with the speakers so close before. My room is a normal living room with the couch against the back wall and the surrounds mounted at ~95 degrees pointed down and forward to intersect in front of the listening position ... not ideal. It's a matter of what is affordable/acceptable/enjoyable. Most folks don't share your demanding standards.

In regards to the OP's question my answer is that for under $150 you can get a player and 6 analog RCA cables to make it work with a rec'r with 6/8 channel in. Providing his expectations are in line with mine he will be in for a treat. My favorite is a DVD-A of Barenboim conducting I forget what orchestra playing Beethovens 9th. I have Pink Floyd and Dire Straits too. I'll let you borrow them to expand your horizons.

Does your Rotel 1098 not have the analog inputs?

Yes it did, and now it is a Marantz AV 8003, an Oppo BD-83 was added. The Marantz also has analog inputs. I use these only for SACD. However I have to do analog signal leveling and analog bass management just for SACD. The big center knob on the black rack mounted control unit switched the unit between PCM and SACD/pure direct pass though analog. So when playing two channel and SACD there is no digital processing what ever. For SACD there is just DSD conversion only. I'm using my Marantz player for SACD and not the Oppo.

The active crossovers providing the low pass signal to the 10" drivers and step compensation signal for the 7" drivers to the upper 10" driver have been significantly revised. A new ATI L200 buffer amp has replaced my buffer amp to distribute and blend the LFE signal. This is a balanced amp with variable gain that also has a mono sum mode by altering a jumper inside. I had to modify the amp though to change the output impedance. So I have been busy. The Marantz unit is fully rack mounted.

I will be adding more details as time permits. After a couple of weeks intense work, I'm relaxing a bit enjoying it.

 

[Alex2507]

I'm relaxing a bit enjoying it.

Me too. Crutchfield has some nice pic's.

I think you need an intervention.

 

[TLS Guy]

Me too. Crutchfield has some nice pic's.

I think you need an intervention.

Can't a guy go on a minor binge every four or five years? Be reasonable my monkey!

 

[Alex2507]

Can't a guy go on a minor binge every four or five years?

No.

Be reasonable my monkey!

No. You know the rules.

Randyb had the best remark. Something like, "you live ... and then you die. May as well have some fun."

 

[3db]

I guess I'll be sticking with two channel sound and forgoe the multichannel mix for now when it comes to audio since it appears that even SACD seems to be fading away. Thanks to all for your opinions..

 

[Alex2507]

I guess I'll be sticking with two channel sound and forgoe the multichannel mix for now when it comes to audio since it appears that even SACD seems to be fading away. Thanks to all for your opinions..

You should really be getting rid of your record player.

 

[3db]

You should really be getting rid of your record player.

Oh umm after you . Please I insist

 

[Alex2507]

Oh umm after you . Please I insist

I tried ... like the way smokers think about quitting every time they light up. Seriously, sooner or later an SACD/DVD-A player will show up for cheap. My first one was $350 and my most recent one was like $50. How do you say no to that? My gripe is that the music is expensive. My first purchase was 3 albums. Beethoven, Foo Fighters and Neil Young came up to $75. I'm glad I started acquiring the MCM titles. I have only added a few more titles since but my ability to play that stuff and having redundant players makes me cooler than you.