Integrated amplifier with USB input and subwoofer out?

J

jetsetter439

Audioholic Intern
Hello Audioholics,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've been doing loads of research on integrated amplifiers based on what I feel to be a pretty simple set of criteria however I'm having trouble finding one that fits my needs at a halfway decent price point.

I would like to know if anyone has any recommendations based upon the below desired features. Please pardon the layman terminology :)
  • USB connection, as opposed to soundcard connection
  • Subwoofer output capability (preferably a dedicated output)
  • Bass/treble/balance controls
  • Relatively affordable (under $800)
I plan on using it with Paradigm Millenia One speakers and a subwoofer for mostly desktop listening. While I don't plan to crank the volume too much, having decent volume capability is important. Size was also a consideration when looking for speakers. I am about 90% sold on the Millenia Ones but would also be open to recommendations here as well.

Any and all input is appreciated, thanks!!
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Hi, jetsetter! Glad that you decided to post. :)

What sort of USB connection would you like? There are a number of units that will accept USB storage device connections, along with iPods (and the like). There are also a number that will connect over Bluetooth and Wi-Fi. I just don't know if they'll do what you want to do.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what is driving you towards wanting a USB connection? I'm wondering if your computer has another equally good way to connect that could open up your shopping options and save you some money.
 
J

jetsetter439

Audioholic Intern
Hey Adam,

Thanks for your reply.

I may not have stated clearly the USB thing. In my research I had noted several models that featured a USB port as a "direct connection" from PC to amplifier vs going through the soundcard.

Evidently this vastly improves the sound, and may or may not relate to what seems to be referred to as a "DAC". Is there a relationship between "DAC" and direct USB connection? I fear I may not be describing this properly but hopefully you understand!

Edit: I am hoping to maximize the sound quality I get from digital music (mp3s, streaming, etc)
 
M

Mark of Cenla

Full Audioholic
My Onkyo A-9050 has a very good DAC and has optical and coaxial inputs on the back but no USB input. I really like it. Good luck in finding what you want.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
An HDMI or digital audio connection would also bypass a sound card's DAC (which stands for Digital-to-Analog Converter) and avoid the conversion to analog. I use digital connections from my Macs and PCs all of the time, including USB, HDMI, and optical digital audio. That said, some sound cards do a very good job with analog audio. It really comes down to which has the better DACs - your computer or your integrated amp. That's because the audio has to be converted to analog before it's sent to the speakers.

You mentioned looking for an integrated amp, but are you open to getting a receiver?
 
J

jetsetter439

Audioholic Intern
I was originally seeking a receiver actually however my research suggested that an integrated amplifier was the optimal choice. I can neither confirm nor deny this to be the case though : )

I just figured an improved connection from source file to speaker would be beneficial as my current sound configuration uses the rather low tech on-board audio from my motherboard, which gets split into my current Onkyo receiver and then out to a pair of bookshelf speakers.

I'm also trying to understand the digital vs analog thing in relation to signal transfer. You had mentioned that you use digital connections regularly with your equipment but also that the audio has to first be converted to analog in order to be heard from the speakers. I'm just curious where the signal gets converted to analog in your examples?

Overall I'm just not very convinced that my onboard audio is doing a very good job at optimizing the sound before it hits my ear.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
A lot of analog audio on motherboards isn't very good, at least in my experience. So, I wouldn't be very surprised if you aren't that satisfied with yours. A dedicated sound card can do wonders, but a digital connection to your Onkyo might really surprise you in how well it sounds. Does your PC have any sort of digital output?
 
J

jetsetter439

Audioholic Intern
I was definitely thinking about a high-end soundcard with a digital out. Would this then not require a separate DAC and/or direct USB connection?

What had sold me on the fact that I should have a direct USB connection was the area under "Digital Input" on the Cambridge Azur 351A product page. I'm unable to post links but it states the below:

"The 351A offers a wide range of inputs so you can connect and enhance all your entertainment devices. Most importantly, we've developed a brand new USB audio input so you can directly connect your Mac or PC. A Burr Brown DAC (digital to analogue converter) takes the digital audio signal from your computer, bypassing its basic soundcard, and takes care of the delicate digital to analogue conversion process inside the amplifier. So for listening to iTunes and streaming services you can connect your computer to the 351A and use it as your primary audio source with CD quality results!"

Unfortunately my PC (HP P7-1254) does not have a digital output. The configuration is very basic with speaker in, speaker out and microphone.

My Onkyo TX-8255 also does not have a digital input.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
You don't need a high-end sound card for a digital output. You'd want a high-end card for a good analog output. You can get pretty inexpensive USB dongles that will output an optical digital output. You can also get a less expensive sound card for a digital output. That would open your options a lot for receivers/integrated amps.

If you use a digital connection to a receiver/amp, then the receiver/amp would use its internal DAC. If you use an analog connection, then the computer's DAC will get used. A DAC will be used somewhere :), and it can be in either your computer or receiver/amp. Most motherboard DACs suck, though.

I'm not trying to steer you towards any specific solution, but just trying to throw some more options out there.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Parasound has preamps and a new integrated amp with Digital coax, TosLink and USB input. I haven't used the USB in on my P5 preamp yet, but I think the TosLink works very well. The phono section sounds great, too. Being newer, the integrated has some advantages over the P5, too. It's rated at 160W/channel.
 
J

jetsetter439

Audioholic Intern
Thanks everyone for your replies.

Adam, do you think I'd be fine then with a standalone soundcard of reasonable quality and thus able to bypass the need for a built-in DAC on the integrated amp? I'm certainly open to this.

I am also a bit curious what types of setups one would have which would necessitate the need for a built-in DAC, if most decent soundcards will do an adequate job of converting to analog?

I'm just trying to understand the different usage scenarios which might warrant one or the other. And still if there is a benefit to running the direct USB connection. So much to sort out!
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
I use digital connections because I like the convenience of a single cable, and because I'm using computers like Mac Minis now - that do a nice job with optical digital audio or HDMI but don't have the greatest analog audio output (much like your motherboard). That might be due to the DAC in the Mini, or just a poor headphone amp.

To try and break it down - the music on your computer is digital, and your speakers need an analog signal to play - so the amp needs an analog signal to amplify and send to the speakers. Therefore, somewhere along the line, something needs to convert your digital music into an analog signal. You can have your computer do that, an external sound card do it, an external DAC do it, or a DAC built into the amp do it. (Yeah, I probably missed some options. :))

Some folks care about DACs down to the nth degree...I'm not one of them. I think that my Pioneer Elite receiver sounds great, and it is using its own DACs. I plug headphones into my phone and think it sounds great, and the phone is using its DAC. I think that there was a bigger difference between DACs 20 years ago, but they are so common these days that a lot of them are good. Your motherboard audio might not be great for some other reason besides the DAC (such as a junky amp on the output).

You could try a really inexpensive external dongle like this one just to check if the audio improves on your Onkyo. I'm not convinced that a <$10 dongle is going to be better than your motherboard, but it might be.
 
J

jetsetter439

Audioholic Intern
Thanks guys. Your explanations confirmed the research I've been doing tonight on DACs and the like.

What I'm thinking of doing is upgrading my sound to a dedicated card and connecting to integrated amplifier via S/PDIF, under the theory that converting to analog later on in the chain ensures less chance of signal loss before hitting the speakers.

Did I explain that properly?

If so it's a matter of picking the right integrated amplifier. This will be a pure music setup which seemed to favor amps versus receivers. I would need one of course with a built-in DAC unless having an external/independent one would somehow yield an advantage.

Mac, I did happen to come across that NAD amp. It's pretty slick but I'd prefer to have bass/treble/fade controls, and I'm not sure I see here. Am I missing them?

Lastly, does anyone know if a USB connection direct from PC to amp is at all a superior or inferior option to S/PDIF?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Jetsetter,
There may be some minuscule benefits to one format over another (SPDIF vs USB); however, since they are both digital signals being sent via wire, there won't be much difference between them in Sound Quality.

I think digital out is a superior option to using a DAC in the computer. Also, a sound card seems like a waste of money if you can output via the USB port (but I am not positive that is how it works - see my questions below).

Lastly, I believe that often audio issues from a CPU are caused by interference from other components inside the computer. The interior of a computer case is a dirty space regarding interference. I believe the FCC rules about interference are applied outside the case, but the inside is noisy! Therefore you should keep the signal digital until it gets clear of the computer.

Adam,
If I want to hook my computer to my Denon (which has USB input) do I simply need a standard USB cable?
Do I need special software to output via cable? Do I need to configure audio output via USB in control panel (Windows)?
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Howdy, Kurt. Please remind me - which Denon do you have?
 
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J

jetsetter439

Audioholic Intern
Argh, it would appear that most integrated amplifiers with built-in DAC do not have an input for S/PDIF.

Can anyone possibly recommend one that does? Or would it instead be suggested to purchase an external DAC to co-exist with the amp and perhaps the right connections will then be available with this type of setup?

Sorry if that sounds like a dumb question, but I'm pretty sold on optical S/PDIF as my connection however will just need to find a solution now to make this play nice with the integrated amp.

Edit: Sorry for yet another question. I am wondering also if somebody can translate the below for me, which was written about the Millennia One speakers that I'm interested in:

"With computer audio in mind, the MilleniaOne CT sports optical digital and stereo mini-jack analog connection. As good as the system is, I wish it had RCA inputs as well. The onboard DAC only delivers 24 bit/48 kHz. Thus, if you want to listen to 96 kHz or higher audio with MilleniaOne, you need to do it via the analog input."
 
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agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
but I'd prefer to have bass/treble/fade controls, and I'm not sure I see here. Am I missing them?
Can't you do this via the computer/ audio player? IMO, you're over complicating things. There are powered speakers that accept USB input. Audioengine A2+ come to mind and for something higher up the chain, Kef X300A. The A2+ will allow the addition of a sub since it has a analog out. The X300A cannot be mated to one.
 
J

jetsetter439

Audioholic Intern
Can't you do this via the computer/ audio player? IMO, you're over complicating things. There are powered speakers that accept USB input. Audioengine A2+ come to mind and for something higher up the chain, Kef X300A. The A2+ will allow the addition of a sub since it has a analog out. The X300A cannot be mated to one.
I'm not the biggest fan of computer audio controls as I prefer to have immediate access to physical tone controls if need be. As you probably know, not all source recordings will have optimal tone regardless of what the artist intended (I am a purist but up to a certain point). For example electronic music often has the bass and/or treble turned all the way up which can be (occasionally) displeasing to the ear.. A quick way to adjust these frequencies would be preferable.

Lastly, is there an advantage to having active speakers vs passive? I was under the impression that passive was better since it does away with all of the numerous and possibly extraneous components necessary to drive it, but correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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