In-Ceiling Subwoofer

[GO-NAD!]

Having received approval for an in-ceiling subwoofer, it's time for some detailed planning. As mentioned in the "Undercouch Subwoofer" thread, this is for my 2-channel setup - music only . So, a F3 in the low/mid 20Hz range is perfectly acceptable. I've attached a sketch of how I envision the installation. It's a cutaway showing how the "false baffle" and foam reduce (hopefully, prevent completely) resonance transmission to the ceiling. The foam between the enclosure baffle and the false baffle is there primarily to seal the ceilling opening. The enclosure will receive its main support from the joists. I plan on a ported design, although you can't see that in the sketch.

The drivers I'm considering are 2 x 10W3V3's in 2 separate enclosures. Or, a 10W6V2 or 8W7 in a single enclosure. The cost of these setups will be about the same. Although I'm not sure if the 2-driver option would require more power, which means that it could be the more expensive option. Due to the greater placement flexibility provided by an in-ceiling sub (although permanent, once installed), I wonder if the 2 lesser drivers in separate enclosures will provide much advantage, if any, over a single superior driver. A single enclosure would cut the workload in half, which is certainly a positive.

For amplification, I would go with a BASH 500. But as mentioned, I don't know if that would be sufficient for dual 10W3V3's. I had originally planned to incorporate a DCX2496, but since I've decided to go with better drivers, that will be on the backburner for future consideration. (unless somebody out there has one for sale at a reasonable price)

The enclosure(s) would be limited to 13.5" in depth, to fit between the joists.
For the dual installation the width could be about 18" each. The height could be as required to achieve the needed volume. There's plenty of room in the attic!

For a single, a width of about 24" would be acceptable. I would like to have dual ports in a single, for symmetry's sake, one on either side of the driver. (I'm not demanding, am I! ).

So Annunaki, if you're reading this, what do you think? Anybody else is welcome to add their opinions as well.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Here's a photo of my living room, where my 2-channel rig is situated. Things have changed a bit since it was taken. The components are in a stand I recently built and it is placed right where the end table is, in this photo. I'll be getting a pair of Paradigm Studio 20's for Christmas, to replace the RC-10's. Not that the Energys are bad speakers - far from it. It's just that the Studios are a step up in SQ.

The in-ceiling subwoofer(s) will require symmetrical installation in order to satisfy WAF. So a pair would have to be the same distance from from the adjacent walls. There will be flexibility in the distance from each wall, as long as it's the same for both.

A single enclosure must be mid-way between side walls, although distance from the front wall can vary.

The space is fairly large - the living room adjoins the hallway and dining room, which leads to the kitchen, blah, blah, blah... We're talking 3000+ cu. ft. However, primary listening is in the living room itself and rarely at high levels (100dB+), normally no more than 70 - 80 dB.

Don't know if these details would have much/any influence on the subwoofer options previously listed, but more info can't hurt.

 

[highfigh]

I'm not doing this to rain on your parade but,

If you have living space above the proposed sub's location, whoever is up there will hate the sub. It's hard enough to keep sound from passing from one space to another without actually being mounted to the structure.

Mounting the sub in the middle of a space, between two walls, will emphasize the standing wave that corresponds to the distance. If you divide 1100 (ft/sec- the approximate speed of sound) by that distance, you'll find the frequency. If it falls outside of the range produced by the woofer, great, but that's not likely.

You can't steal some of the space in the lower cabinets, can you?

 

[GO-NAD!]

I'm not doing this to rain on your parade but,

If you have living space above the proposed sub's location, whoever is up there will hate the sub. It's hard enough to keep sound from passing from one space to another without actually being mounted to the structure.

Mounting the sub in the middle of a space, between two walls, will emphasize the standing wave that corresponds to the distance. If you divide 1100 (ft/sec- the approximate speed of sound) by that distance, you'll find the frequency. If it falls outside of the range produced by the woofer, great, but that's not likely.

You can't steal some of the space in the lower cabinets, can you?

The attic is above the ceiling. It won't bother anybody else.

I don't plan to mount it/them smack dab in the middle of the room! In the case of a single sub, it would be as close to the front wall as needed (after doing some testing, prior to installation). I'm guessing 2 ft, or 3 feet at the most. If centred between the side walls, there would be about 5.5 feet on either side of the driver. That would equal 200Hz, according to your formula. That's way above where the crossover would be set, 80Hz most likely.

In the case of dual subs, well the question is moot. They won't be anywhere close to the centre of the room.

Thanks for your input. If I'm still in error, please let me know!

 

[annunaki]

Since this is going to be semi permanent, I would go the dual sub route as opposed to a single sub. The 10W3v3 is a very good quality driver.For your usage they will work very well as they will (most likely) always remain within linear limits.

Again, with careful placement, your ceiling "bass vents" will do better than just one.

Again for your configuration, you can get by with a BASH 500 but I would bet you could snag an EP2000 for the same price. Then you will not need to worry about power.

I will play around with the modeling on the 10W3v3 for optimal alignment and let you know what I come up with.

How wide is your false baffle so I can plan accordingly for the vent width.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Since this is going to be semi permanent, I would go the dual sub route as opposed to a single sub. The 10W3v3 is a very good quality driver.For your usage they will work very well as they will (most likely) always remain within linear limits.

Again, with careful placement, your ceiling "bass vents" will do better than just one.

Again for your configuration, you can get by with a BASH 500 but I would bet you could snag an EP2000 for the same price. Then you will not need to worry about power.

I will play around with the modeling on the 10W3v3 for optimal alignment and let you know what I come up with.

How wide is your false baffle so I can plan accordingly for the vent width.

I figured you would suggest the dual configuration! It's more work, but I want to maximize the performance return on investment and I agree with your recommendation.

The false baffle will look like a picture frame when viewed from below, with a chamfer around the inside and outside edges (see attached sketch). I figure the opening will be 11.5" wide, as the driver outside diameter is 10.5", according to the JL website. That would give me 1" of overlap between the enclosure and false baffle on each side. As I stated in the first post, the vast majority of weight load will be carried by the joists.

I actually checked into the EP2000 as a possible amp (after all the back and forth postings between us, I think our trains of thought are coming into sync) However, I will need a crossover if I go that route, correct? So, here are the costs of different options:

1) A BASH 500 would cost me $300, including tax and shipping. This is the lowest power option, although I doubt I would miss the couple of dB's I would get by powering the drivers to the full 500W rating.

2) A pair of BASH 300's would cost me $390, including tax and shipping. I'm leaning towards this option, as it would allow me to vary the gain for each driver (although I don't know if that might be necessary at this point) and they would give me a few more watts to play with.

3)An HPSA1000 would be $540, including tax and shipping. This would keep me within my budget and give me the power these drivers are rated for.

4)The EP2000 and CX2310 would be $500, including tax and with free shipping. But, I just can't see the sense in buying the CX2310, when eventually, I plan to get the DCX. To get the DCX now would blow past my budget ($1000).

These are Canadian prices. The cost of importing these items from the US would cancel any advantage of lower prices.

I plan to purchase the 10W3V3's from a US ebay retailer, as the only Canadian source I can find on-line (I can't find any local retailers) wants $260each, plus tax and shipping! Even after shipping, duty, brokerage, a** raping and tax, I can have 2 at my door for about C$420. Do you know if the ebay retailers are reliable? The one I have in mind has a great feedback rating, but I've never purchased from ebay before, so I don't know how reliable that rating is.

 

[highfigh]

The attic is above the ceiling. It won't bother anybody else.

I don't plan to mount it/them smack dab in the middle of the room! In the case of a single sub, it would be as close to the front wall as needed (after doing some testing, prior to installation). I'm guessing 2 ft, or 3 feet at the most. If centred between the side walls, there would be about 5.5 feet on either side of the driver. That would equal 200Hz, according to your formula. That's way above where the crossover would be set, 80Hz most likely.

In the case of dual subs, well the question is moot. They won't be anywhere close to the centre of the room.

Thanks for your input. If I'm still in error, please let me know!

By middle, I meant middle of that wall, as you had posted. One thing to remember is that it's hard to stop low frequencies, so isolation and barriers are important.

Re: ebay sellers- make sure they're authorized by JL (or whoever) to sell the equipment. If not, the warranty may not exist.

 

[GO-NAD!]

By middle, I meant middle of that wall, as you had posted. One thing to remember is that it's hard to stop low frequencies, so isolation and barriers are important.

Re: ebay sellers- make sure they're authorized by JL (or whoever) to sell the equipment. If not, the warranty may not exist.

It looks like I'm going to go with dual subs, so they won't be in the middle of a wall. I looked at all the authorized dealers, according to JL website. Funnily enough, they all have the same prices - about $80 more than the ebay sellers. What's up with that? Regarding warranties, I have no expectation of a warranty, if I order drivers from anybody in the US. So, I won't let that be a dissuader.

Thanks for your input!

 

[annunaki]

Why don't you accept PM's?

Does your receiver offer a LP x-over? If so, you do not need one. If it is temporary, why not get some F-Mods at 70hz until you get the DCX, then you can get the EP2000.

PM me when you fix your account.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Why don't you accept PM's?

Does your receiver offer a LP x-over? If so, you do not need one. If it is temporary, why not get some F-Mods at 70hz until you get the DCX, then you can get the EP2000.

PM me when you fix your account.

It's a 2-channel integrated amp, so no integral crossover. What the heck is a "F-Mod"? PM sent...

 

[GO-NAD!]

You know, I think "mission creep" has been setting in. Originally, it was agreed that a single undercouch sub using a 10W1V2 would be superior to the one I have. Now we're talking two subs, that can be placed for superior integration. Maybe using 2 x 10W1V2's would be suitable for me. Then, a DCX would fall within my budget.

Any thoughts?

 

[annunaki]

You know, I think "mission creep" has been setting in. Originally, it was agreed that a single undercouch sub using a 10W1V2 would be superior to the one I have. Now we're talking two subs, that can be placed for superior integration. Maybe using 2 x 10W1V2's would be suitable for me. Then, a DCX would fall within my budget.

Any thoughts?

Check my response PM it may help solve the dilemma.

 

[highfigh]

You know, I think "mission creep" has been setting in. Originally, it was agreed that a single undercouch sub using a 10W1V2 would be superior to the one I have. Now we're talking two subs, that can be placed for superior integration. Maybe using 2 x 10W1V2's would be suitable for me. Then, a DCX would fall within my budget.

Any thoughts?

Go big, or go home?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Go big, or go home?

Absolutely! I got approval to boost my budget as required! Somehow, I get the feeling that my subwoofer budget isn't the only thing that will be increasing...

 

[GO-NAD!]

As mentioned in the last post, I got approval for a budget increase. So, the DCX will not be a problem, I can get that up front, along with the rest of the required items. I just wonder how user friendly (for my wife) an EP2000 amp would be. If I have to leave it on 24/7, how much current is it going to draw with no load? How will it affect the lifespan? Plus, is fan noise going to be an issue, with or without any mods?

 

[annunaki]

If it is like the EP2500 you will want to do a fan mod.

As for usability, I know of many that leave their amps on 24hrs a day with no issues.

I do believe I saw a mod once which would allow the amp to be activated remotely with a 12V trigger. Or, to keep it simple, as for this for Christmas.

Great news on the allowance of the DCX!

 

[GO-NAD!]

If it is like the EP2500 you will want to do a fan mod.

As for usability, I know of many that leave their amps on 24hrs a day with no issues.

I do believe I saw a mod once which would allow the amp to be activated remotely with a 12V trigger. Or, to keep it simple, as for this for Christmas.

Great news on the allowance of the DCX!

Yes, it is good news! I'm curious about the 12v trigger mod. Do you know if there are standalone 12v trigger units, that I could connect to my integrated amp, which has a 12v trigger, as well as power outlets that I could connect the power cords of the EP2000 and the DCX to. Then, I could leave the power switches "on" for both.

I'm not sure about the Panamax though. The EP 2000 manual says that fan speed "adjusts automatically". I wonder if it will stay off when there is no load on the amp. Anybody know? If the amp is very quiet with the fan mod, I guess I can leave it on (if that's the route I take).

Actually, if you could model the discussed drivers with the EP2000 and a BASH 500 and let me know if I would derive any "practical" benefit by going with the EP2000, it'd be helpful. I know, you said before that I'd get more headroom with the more powerful amp. I'm guessing that it'd be 3dB acroos the frequency spectrum. But, what can the plate amp provide in terms of SPL, without struggling. I very rarely listen to anything at 100dB, much less exceed it. So, if the plate amp can do that with no trouble, it may simplify the setup a bit.

 

[annunaki]

Here are some first steps for using the Dayton drivers:

Both of these assume 350 watts rms input power.

I would have no issues using such a design in my own home especially as the footprint is rather small. The performance appears very solid as well.

 

[annunaki]

Yes, it is good news! I'm curious about the 12v trigger mod. Do you know if there are standalone 12v trigger units, that I could connect to my integrated amp, which has a 12v trigger, as well as power outlets that I could connect the power cords of the EP2000 and the DCX to. Then, I could leave the power switches "on" for both.

I'm not sure about the Panamax though. The EP 2000 manual says that fan speed "adjusts automatically". I wonder if it will stay off when there is no load on the amp. Anybody know? If the amp is very quiet with the fan mod, I guess I can leave it on (if that's the route I take).

Actually, if you could model the discussed drivers with the EP2000 and a BASH 500 and let me know if I would derive any "practical" benefit by going with the EP2000, it'd be helpful. I know, you said before that I'd get more headroom with the more powerful amp. I'm guessing that it'd be 3dB acroos the frequency spectrum. But, what can the plate amp provide in terms of SPL, without struggling. I very rarely listen to anything at 100dB, much less exceed it. So, if the plate amp can do that with no trouble, it may simplify the setup a bit.

The Panamax is a stand alone 12V triggered AC outlet.

The EP2000 will provide approximately 3x the power of the bash amp or more in mono.

That is approximately 4.5db of unclipped headroom over the BASH for dynamics.

To me it is a no brain decision as they are the same price.

The plate amp does not offer the dynamic capability and may/will go into clipping during dynamic peaks.

Can you get by with the plate amp, yes. Will it sound good, yes. Will the EP2000 sound better, yes, at moderate to higher levels.

The issue to me is if they are the same price, why compromise performance??

 

[GO-NAD!]

The Panamax is a stand alone 12V triggered AC outlet.

The EP2000 will provide approximately 3x the power of the bash amp or more in mono.

That is approximately 4.5db of unclipped headroom over the BASH for dynamics.

To me it is a no brain decision as they are the same price.

The plate amp does not offer the dynamic capability and may/will go into clipping during dynamic peaks.

Can you get by with the plate amp, yes. Will it sound good, yes. Will the EP2000 sound better, yes, at moderate to higher levels.

The issue to me is if they are the same price, why compromise performance??

I'm quite sure that the EP2000 will be a superior amp from a power/cost standpoint. But, those aren't the only considerations in choosing the most suitable amp. I just need to be sure that it won't present any WAF challenges, such as:

According to the EP 2000 manual: "Always make sure to completely lower amplification of both channels before powering up the amp. Otherwise, permanent damage to your speakers may occur."

Does that mean there would be a power "bump" going to the sub drivers if the gain isn't turned down during power up? If so, is it something to be concerned about? On "normal" sub amps, the gain can be left alone, so why would it be different for the EP2000?

If the gain has to be adjusted before using the amp, is it going to throw off the equalization settings? I can't see it being that easy to set the gain precisely, by hand, to match the equalization settings every time I want to turn the system on! Besides, my wife is not going to tolerate having to make any "manual" adjustments when using the system.

If the gain can be set and left alone, it won't be an issue.