I want to upgrade my AV-Reciver but am very affraid!

Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
"Those ABX tests, however, are so comforting in their conclusions and implications that anyone can. Maybe. But like I said, rephrasing it, what's the point of this quest for sonic nirvana if that sonic nirvana is just about a zip cord and a $300 reciever?"

I ask, what's the use of sonic nirvana if it has nothing to do with sonics?:D

Hmmm...if you can compare that $300 unit to anything in the world for months and not hear the difference, then the nirvana you seek has nothing to do with sound, my friend. You're searching for answers with gear that can be better addressed with a sabbatical to the Himalayas. :p

BTW, I hope you've been drinking, 'cause that first part isn't really a sentence. And, uh, because I have! :D

You're pretty cocksure, maybe this trading barbs in cyberspace won't solve the worlds problems. (You think?!).

Perhaps we should take this offline. I'll PM you.

Don't worry, I'm not suggesting a duel! :D
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
Awww, nuts! I tried to PM you, but apparently your mailbox is overly full & can't accept any new messages.

Dude! Check your friggin' mail once in awhile! :p
 
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av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Sorry about that, I just deleted a few messages. Didn't really notice it was already full until now.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I'm honestly a closet subjectivist (okay, don't nobody get no ideas! :p ), just waiting for someone to win me over! :D

Yeah, that inbox thing is all f'ed up. It's pretty hard to delete anything, and your outgoing stuff seems to count against your total. Hey, I'm a moderator and I can't F'in' figure out our PM system! :mad:

Anyway, I look forward to more debate with you on this subject. It may end up being nature vs nuture or conservative vs liberal (ie irreconcileable), but perhaps not. It'll be fun either way! :D
 
C

CosmicOne

Junior Audioholic
So guys,
u totally forgot about my original post & the reason for this post LOL.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
Sorry, CosmicOne! :eek: Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Maybe beer+computer= trouble! :D

I'll briefly give it a shot. You may or may not hear a diff, but I'd still upgrade if I could. New models have some features that are really nice, like upsampling to component video, more digital inputs, all the latest formats, etc.
 
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av_phile

Senior Audioholic
Have deleted a few more for a total of 19, in and out. So it's should accomo some PMs.

I am not entirely certain that this debate, if you can even call it that, will take us anywhere. You have your beliefs, I have mine. But that's what a hobby that is personal is about. We have our respective opinions on diverse topics in this hobby. Some might go to extremes as to hold their opinions as dogma. But that's entirely for them to hold and follow on their own. Not as an imposition on others. This hobby is also about personal choices. Not imposing one's dogma on others. Like those boutique vendors competing with mass vendors for our wallets in a free open society, I would like to think forums like this are an open market for different ideas, opinions, beliefs, etc. to compete on their own merits. And not impose and proclaim exclusivity to correctness and absolute truth at the expense of others.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
[bI once champion ABX testing. It's probably about the only thing that can really yield an objective unbiased conclusion when making comparisons. But the results seems to be merely statistical.[/b]

Well, that is what science is about. I am so glad medical science uses it as well as all sciences that use DBT protocol.


I'm not so sure now that it really matters in this hobby.

I suppose that would depend on the answers you seek and how the oucome compares to what you seek.

That article sounds like blind testing will lead to the conclusion that a ride on a Toyota Corolla will be the same as a ride on a Mercedes Benz S-class.


Sheer speculation on your part, of course. And if it doesn't test out the same?
Interesting that even wine is tested DBT.




Listening to home playback system can overreach the Hi-Fidelity objective so that it assumes pride of ownership and a personal and social statement.

If you are looking for a social statemt, then there is really no need to even listen, just buy that will meet this goal. Preferences are not testable very well at all.






Ofcourse, if a pundit proclaims that a $300 receiver sounds the same as a $15,000 amp, fine.

Just as fine if a self appointed golden ear claims that that $15K amp is audibly different. Or, claims something else for it that can be tested in an objective manner.





That's very comforting to those who can't afford. No different from saying, whether you're in a corolla or a benz, you'd sitll be stuck in traffic.

I just love these apples and orange comparison, don't you?




Never mind if that $15,000 amp carries a lifetime warranty.

I can buy a hell of a lot of $300 amps, brand new in my lifetime before coming close to $15k.



Never mind if that $15,000 amp is built like a tank requiring 3 people to carry.

If that is what you want, then that is an issue of preference. Don't even need to listen, just pay by the weight.


Never mind if that $15,000 amp was almost hand-built by a team of dedicated audiophile technicians using cost-no-object parts on uncompromising circuit designs that only deliver 50 units a month to the dealers nationwide.

Obviously cost-no-object parts list didn't help those dedicated techs and designers. It may impress some, if that is what they prefer. Has nothing to do with sound obviously.

Never mind if that $15,000 amp can drive 1 ohm loads without ever getting too hot.

If you need that capability, that is a consideration, yes. Maybe there are other amps with that capability for less?

Do they have anything to do wth sonics?

Obviously not in the posted example.

What about performance?

Only when that extreme load capability is needed.



Just get the cheapest you can come across.

That will do the job?


It will take you to your listening destinaton just the same.


Yes, :)

What a dreary world.


Why? You are not prevented for buying that Benz or that $15k amp. Obviously there is a market for it.

I would hate to see everyone owning the same $300 receiver.


Why? It is a choice.

It reminds me of TV scenes about the old Brezhnev Kremlin and Mao-Tse Tung China with their identical lookng cars and drab grey outfits.


It shouldn't. You are not forced to comply here. You have a choice.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
SO mtrycrafts
from what u are saying,i get that if i go with AV Phile advice & get the Rotel with the B&W i will not get much difference from them more that some more DB louder than my system now,



I don't think that is exactely what I said. Not if you replace speakers as well. Speakers will sound different.



So i understand from u that if a customer goes from a 300$ amp with something like Bose speakers to a Z9 or Denon 5805 with B&W's or Tannoys or KEF's he will be a victem to markting????!!!!!!


NO, No, No.
Why is it so hard to understand what I wrote?

Now you are bringing different speakers into the comparison.
Speakers will sound different independent of amps. Please, try to understand this so we don't keep reinventing the wheel in every post.







So u are saying u didn't say that,Yes u didn't say that by word but u SURE pointed at that from what u said & it's very obvious,Ask anyone how is reading this thread,

You are reading for answers between th elines. Please don't. There is but empty space there. I cannot help if someone else besides yourself will read between the lines as well. Common human nature.




Would u rate the quality & performance of for example a Yamaha RXV750 to a Yamaha Z9?????

Quality is very subjective, isn't it? Performance differences on the spec sheet may or may not be of importance. Much of the difference is not audible. Maybe all of the difference is not. You certainly will not know from a biased comparison.





Anyway we are not gonna fight over this & thanx for ur advice.

Fight? I hope that is not what we were doing but exchanging ideas and information, no?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Rob Babcock said:
Did you ever hear of the 'Mark Levinson Scandal'? It appears he bought very, very cheap integrated amps in the far east and merely rebadged them with the Red Rose label. He then multiplied the price by a factor of 10 or 15 over what they sold in Asia! :eek: He'd have gotten away with it too, if is wusn't fer that meddlin' internet.

.
LOL :D
I didn't hear this, but, after the latest events with TARA Labs importing cables and removing and exchanging labels, why is it a surprise? After all, it is a profit driven business :)
 
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av_phile

Senior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
[bI once champion ABX testing. It's probably about the only thing that can really yield an objective unbiased conclusion when making comparisons. But the results seems to be merely statistical.[/b]

Well, that is what science is about. I am so glad medical science uses it as well as all sciences that use DBT protocol.
Any process that yield statistical results are just that- statistical PROBABILITIES. I'm so glad the government doesn't follow statisical trending in any election to proclaim a candidate leading in a statistically poll as the winner. :D

Statistics can guide but cannot serve as the TRUTH or a LAW the way some pundits would have me believe the results of statistical ABX tests are. If such a result can be made into a LAW like some laws in electro-physics, then I can abandon my point. But I think there's a higher statistical probablity that crows can turn white overnight before all cables and amps sounding the same will ever be a sceintific law. :D


I'm not so sure now that it really matters in this hobby.

I suppose that would depend on the answers you seek and how the oucome compares to what you seek.
Whatever the answer I seek, they are certainly not about zip cords and $300 receivers.

That article sounds like blind testing will lead to the conclusion that a ride on a Toyota Corolla will be the same as a ride on a Mercedes Benz S-class.


Sheer speculation on your part, of course. And if it doesn't test out the same?
Interesting that even wine is tested DBT.
Right, statistics is just a more scientific way of speculating.



Listening to home playback system can overreach the Hi-Fidelity objective so that it assumes pride of ownership and a personal and social statement.

If you are looking for a social statemt, then there is really no need to even listen, just buy that will meet this goal. Preferences are not testable very well at all.
Bingo. This hobby is about preferences. :D


Ofcourse, if a pundit proclaims that a $300 receiver sounds the same as a $15,000 amp, fine.

Just as fine if a self appointed golden ear claims that that $15K amp is audibly different. Or, claims something else for it that can be tested in an objective manner.
LOL, :D He probably doesn't have to claim it. Admittedly, a $15k amp can be too much. But there's this saying: "you only get what you pay for." What do you get with a 15K amp. I think you better ask the people who buy rolls and benzes.


That's very comforting to those who can't afford. No different from saying, whether you're in a corolla or a benz, you'd sitll be stuck in traffic.

I just love these apples and orange comparison, don't you?
Yup, they're both round, edible, delicious, grows from seeds, peelable, can be juiced, diced, canned, osterized, nutritive, etc. :D Except the color and texture.

Seriously, if the analogy escapes you, I am not surprised. But I must credit those ABX tests as very comforting to those who can't afford, don't you?


Never mind if that $15,000 amp carries a lifetime warranty.

I can buy a hell of a lot of $300 amps, brand new in my lifetime before coming close to $15k.
Sure thing. Like going in circles.



Never mind if that $15,000 amp is built like a tank requiring 3 people to carry.

If that is what you want, then that is an issue of preference. Don't even need to listen, just pay by the weight.
Nope, if someone can invent a 5-channel 300wpc amp that is as light as a feather, I'd get one. But since you like statistics so much, what are the odds that amps become lighter as they scale up the power rating?

Never mind if that $15,000 amp was almost hand-built by a team of dedicated audiophile technicians using cost-no-object parts on uncompromising circuit designs that only deliver 50 units a month to the dealers nationwide.

Obviously cost-no-object parts list didn't help those dedicated techs and designers. It may impress some, if that is what they prefer. Has nothing to do with sound obviously.
Well, it isnt that obvious to someone who may have come across a cheap electrolytic capacitor that failed earlier and introduced sonic artifcacts into what he hears. Or to someone who has come across some cheap amp circuitry that rolls off -3db at 40hz instead of 15Hz. Or to some plastic parts that deformed after a few hours of intensive listening.

Never mind if that $15,000 amp can drive 1 ohm loads without ever getting too hot.

If you need that capability, that is a consideration, yes. Maybe there are other amps with that capability for less?
There are, but why question someone who can afford it and wants it?


Just get the cheapest you can come across.

That will do the job?
Won't it? I thought your ABX testing said a $300 reciever will do the same job as a $15,000 amp?


It will take you to your listening destinaton just the same.


Yes, :)

What a dreary world.


Why? You are not prevented for buying that Benz or that $15k amp. Obviously there is a market for it.

I would hate to see everyone owning the same $300 receiver.


Why? It is a choice.

It reminds me of TV scenes about the old Brezhnev Kremlin and Mao-Tse Tung China with their identical lookng cars and drab grey outfits.

It shouldn't. You are not forced to comply here. You have a choice.
Thanks for reminding me I have a choice. All the while I thought an ABX testing that says a $15,000 amp sounds no different from a $300 is meant to throw cold water on those contemplating on such a choice.
 
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