I want to upgrade my AV-Reciver but am very affraid!

Discussion in 'Amps, Pre-Pros & Receivers' started by CosmicOne, Sep 5, 2004.

  1. CosmicOne Junior Audioholic

    CosmicOne
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    My kit right now is as follows:

    KenWood KRF-5030D DolbyDigital only(Rated @ 110Wx5 it's power consumption is only 190w)
    Sony DVP-NS305
    Fronts Wharfedale Diamond 8.4
    Center Wharfedale Diamond 8c
    Rear Pioneer (old 3way speakers S-D55)

    am planning to upgrade my Reciver to a Yamaha RX-V750 or RX-V1400 also i migh upgrade the rears to Wharfedale Diamond 8.1.

    The problem is am really afraid to upgrade the reciver & get the same sound i have now(i will pay a large amount of money for upgrading),
    the probelm with my system now (i think manily the Kenwood amp) that the sound is loud & detailed but i don't feel am inside the movie,the system is not transparent at all (i can tell each sound coming from each speaker)i don't fell am surrounded it's more like "Hey there's something coming from the Rear left then here's another sound in the front right then here's some people talking in the center)i wish u get my drift guys?!?!!

    also am not an audio guru nor we have(in my Country) the same options as u have in US & Europe we even don't have the high quality wiring u have,am connecting my speakers with normal red & black wire,we only have good quality connectors from RadioShack but it's very expensive here,

    Also what do u think about my DVD "Sony 305" is it good or is it a a bad link for the new reciver am planning to get????

    I know this is a long post but please guys be patient with me;

    The last thing that am really confuesd between the new RXV750 & the RXV1400 coz the 1400 only have better amplifier & THX surround while the 750 have newer LSI's (YSS948) & have the new & good Pure direct mode(like found on the Z9) & have the new shape & it maybe better in Stereo performance due to the pure dirct mode,so what do u think is still a better buy???(the 1400 in my country is much much more expensive than the 750)

    Thanx guys in advance & any help would be appreciated.
  2. mtrycrafts Audioholic Slumlord

    mtrycrafts
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    My kit right now is as follows:

    KenWood KRF-5030D DolbyDigital only(Rated @ 110Wx5 it's power consumption is only 190w)
    Sony DVP-NS305
    Fronts Wharfedale Diamond 8.4
    Center Wharfedale Diamond 8c
    Rear Pioneer (old 3way speakers S-D55)

    am planning to upgrade my Reciver to a Yamaha RX-V750 or RX-V1400 also i migh upgrade the rears to Wharfedale Diamond 8.1.

    The problem is am really afraid to upgrade the reciver & get the same sound i have now(i will pay a large amount of money for upgrading),


    that is good to be afraid of not getting your monies worth :)
    Not an unrealistic worry as most good amps are good, sonically equivalents.


    the probelm with my system now (i think manily the Kenwood amp) that the sound is loud & detailed

    Then you don't have an amp or receiver problem. You need to investigate other reasons for your dissatisfaction.


    but i don't feel am inside the movie,

    How can you? You are an observer ;)

    the system is not transparent at all

    But you said above that it is loud and detailed?

    (i can tell each sound coming from each speaker)i don't fell am surrounded it's more like "Hey there's something coming from the Rear left then here's another sound in the front right then here's some people talking in the center)i wish u get my drift guys?!?!!

    Sounds normal to me. If you are looking for a difuse sound where you cannot tell where the sound is, then that is a false expectation. Sound is a point source to a certain frequency then it is around you, mor or less. That is the low frequencies.

    we even don't have the high quality wiring u have,

    Count your blessings not having expensive wire that will only steal your money and get nothing in return but a sugar pill ;)

    am connecting my speakers with normal red & black wire,

    If it is thick enough, that is all you need.

    we only have good quality connectors from RadioShack but it's very expensive here,

    What kind of connectors? Maybe your local country connectors are just fine, after all. Remember, audio is like any other consumer market place, full of promises and short on delivery :rolleyes: lots of claims based in thin air.

    Also what do u think about my DVD "Sony 305" is it good or is it a a bad link for the new reciver am planning to get????

    This seems to be a good player.



    The last thing that am really confuesd between the new RXV750 & the RXV1400 coz the 1400 only have better amplifier & THX surround while the 750 have newer LSI's (YSS948) & have the new & good Pure direct mode(like found on the Z9) & have the new shape & it maybe better in Stereo performance due to the pure dirct mode,so what do u think is still a better buy???(the 1400 in my country is much much more expensive than the 750)

    Thanx guys in advance & any help would be appreciated.



    Don't get confused with all the marketing hype and nonsense- direct mode?

    Take you time and research and be sure you need an upgrade, then get what will meet your needs.
    Where are you posting from?
  3. CosmicOne Junior Audioholic

    CosmicOne
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    Thanx dude,
    am posting from Egypt,

    anyway i may be wrong when i said the sound is detailed coz i really doesn't know if there is more details (i don't listen to anything with better quality) but the sound is only loud with out distortion to something like -30DB on my amp that's somewhat loud for me espicially with my parents in home,

    2nd from reading everywhere in audio forums & sites & reviews i knew that a good surround system will get u into the movie atmosphere while my system doesn't do that atall now.

    & BTW am like u i don't think expensive wiring make a diff at all but people keep saying that over & over again.

    anyway thanx man for u time.
  4. Stryf3 Audioholic Intern

    Stryf3
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    I'm pretty sure all the Yamaha amps have some sort of direct mode that completely bipasses the bass and treble controls to give you the truest sound.
  5. CosmicOne Junior Audioholic

    CosmicOne
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    Stryf3;
    yes dude they have a direct effect mode but only the Z9 & new RXV650 & 750 have the newest Pure direct mode which also switchs of video section of the amp & turn off the display & all the functions unless u press any button on the remote.
  6. Polkfan Audioholic

    Polkfan
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    It sounds more like a speaker issue to me. It could be the placement of the speaks. Wharfdales are good ones though.
  7. CosmicOne Junior Audioholic

    CosmicOne
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    I came to the conclusion that the Amp is the problem coz when i also upgraded from very very old (1980) Akai 3way speakers to my new Diamond 8.4 also doesn't differ much from my not very new pioneer S-D55 speakers, there's wasn't much difference in performance also there's no difference in sound quality when watching DolbyDigital encoded DIVX movies on my pc through Audigy or SoundStorm or watching original DVD's on my Sony the same when listing to music cds on the sony or listing to MP'3s on PC,that's why i thought the reason is not in the source or speaker therefore i think it's the weak powered amp which can only give equall or less than it's total power consumption of 190Watt.

    Also i didn't observe any differnece when i upgraded form a ****ty RadioShack RCA center channel speaker (made of plastic with 4" woofers & 75watt & very small) to a Wharfedale Diamond8 center (100W 6" woofer Wood made)to match my 8.4's fronts. only very little new sounds can be heared that i didn't notice with the Plastic RCA.

    Even tried using the onborad DolbyDigital decoders on the Audigy & on the Soundstorm & comaring them with cyrus logice decoder on the Kenwood amp & guess what there's no difference.


    BTW i tried for connections Analogue connections & Digital coaxial connection,& optical connection,6ch inputs with PC & DVD & they all doesn't give any difference.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2004
  8. Polkfan Audioholic

    Polkfan
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    Sounds like you've made up you mind already about the receiver, but it is interesting that you don't hear *much* difference between the speakers you compared. I'd have imagined the Wharfedales would have been the clear winner out of the pack regardless of the power source, unless it is really messed up. I'd stay away from Kenwoods personally though on the basis of quality any way. In this case it really could be the receiver.
  9. mtrycrafts Audioholic Slumlord

    mtrycrafts
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    After reading the follow on posts from him, it sounds like his expectations are unrealistic in what audio componets will and will not do. :(
  10. nadnklipsch Enthusiast

    nadnklipsch
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    maybe he'd have better luck with a 7.1 setup? i think thats what it is, i'm not big into surround but that sounds right.

    { t_v } <sub>

    { couch }

    { }


    i know its a horrible diagram and theres no center channel in it but o well :D
  11. nadnklipsch Enthusiast

    nadnklipsch
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    well that looked better when i was typing, than it got all smashed :mad:
  12. CosmicOne Junior Audioholic

    CosmicOne
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    Dude,
    why it seems that u don't belive on performance differences between different audio equipment & differnet levels of them (entry level ,mid level,high end)???

    if this was true so why people upgrade there audio components atall??? :rolleyes:

    Would u rate the quality & performance of for example a Yamaha RXV750 to a Yamaha Z9?????

    As Polkfan said,while i didn't made up my mind (if so i woudn't even need to post to ask advice)many people told me to change the KenWood Reciver & that KenWood is not that good neither in power nor in quailty.

    Polkfan;
    offcourse there's noticable difference in sound between the Wharfedales & the old speakers but it's not very much a diff. it's so little like better sounding Bass (deep bass coz spec is that the 8.4 can go to 30HZ) & more natural sound but the imaging & sound staging doesn't get better & sound doesn't became louder.


    Frankly my problem is that i don't listen to the RXV1400 or the 750 well till now, far from this the only time i heard a massive difference in sound quality than my system wheni heard a pair of B&W Natualus800 powered by Rotel amp in which they cost 8000USD for the speakers & 1200USD for the amp & while they where in very very narrow place & i was listing while i was standing & while i listeing for 5minutes( i wasn't having any time to sit & listen also i wasn't planning in any way to buy them coz my whole budget was 800USD which can only get me a max of RXV750 considering prices in my country) only but from the first sound it was something i never heard before.


    Thanx guys for all ur help,it's really apreciated & keep the posts coming.
  13. Polkfan Audioholic

    Polkfan
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    Check this link about differences in receivers:

    http://smr-home-theatre.org/blowing/index.html

    This supports the notion of questionable amplification in Kenwoods.
    The site is pretty informative. Not to mention some good shots of the guts of some older receivers (Look at those caps in the Onkyo for instance :eek: ). But the Kenwood did not have any filter capacitors.

    Cheers!
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2004
  14. mtrycrafts Audioholic Slumlord

    mtrycrafts
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    I looked, I didn't see why they question Kenwood? And I missed their bias controlled listening comparisons, the real test. ;)
  15. Polkfan Audioholic

    Polkfan
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    While I agree that no listening test were performed (which is where the true test is), it just seems that the Kenwood is sub par as compared to the others. The reference to the capacitor issue is found by clicking on the Kenwood transformer in the photo of the receiver. And this is the heading of the photo:

    "Power Transformer and Power Supply:
    The Kenwood’s power supply is most odd. While the power transformer is large enough to provide adequate output capability, the unit has no central power supply capacitors. Not only is this unusual, it’s also highly questionable."

    I just wonder why there are no power supply caps in there high end model. Could be a new design. ;)
  16. mtrycrafts Audioholic Slumlord

    mtrycrafts
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    why it seems that u don't belive on performance differences between different audio equipment & differnet levels of them (entry level ,mid level,high end)???


    I wasn't aware that audio is based on a belief system? Is it? Then I must be in the wrong church.
    I need facts, not a belief system. Simple.

    if this was true so why people upgrade there audio components atall??? :rolleyes:

    Marketeers have trained the consumer public for centuries, you need to get the lates.
    There is a place when quantum advances are made, from stereo to multi channel, from analog to digital.


    Would u rate the quality & performance of for example a Yamaha RXV750 to a Yamaha Z9?????

    What would that tell you? More power? Is it audible? Do you need that 1dB-3dB extra power? Does one have something you must have while th eother doesn't?
    Or, is one new and the latest tease?



    As Polkfan said,while i didn't made up my mind (if so i woudn't even need to post to ask advice)many people told me to change the KenWood Reciver & that KenWood is not that good neither in power nor in quailty.

    Many people tell me that psychics can tell you stuff, talk to the dead. Even my sister tries to tell me this. What do you think? Are psychics for real? Is alien abduction for real? Can Yuri really bend the spoon or is it a trick?

    You need to evaluate facts, the quality of opinions as they are varied by a large margin.


    Polkfan;
    offcourse there's noticable difference in sound between the Wharfedales & the old speakers but it's not very much a diff. it's so little like better sounding Bass (deep bass coz spec is that the 8.4 can go to 30HZ) & more natural sound but the imaging & sound staging doesn't get better & sound doesn't became louder.


    While the spec tells you 30 Hz, it doesn't tell you at what level it is capable of producing. Maybe it can only be measured? Maybe it is loud indeed. Certainly the specs didn't tell you that.




    Thanx guys for all ur help,it's really apreciated & keep the posts coming.

    You came to the right place :)
  17. av_phile Senior Audioholic

    av_phile
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    Cosmic One,

    You seem to have an ear to distinguish between a truly excellent set-up from a merely adequate set-up. And I can very well relate with your dissatisfaction on your current set-up - which is often the first step in this hobby's unending quest (expensive one) towards sonic nirvana.

    There are a number of factors to consider first before you plunge into the right upgrade. A number of my colleagues have done the same without first considering room accoustics and speaker placement and they got roughly about the same quality of sound with their new more expensive equipment. Try to do a little research, inspection and analysis of your listening conditions. I think there are some good articles on room accoustics in this forum and elsewhere. And speaker placement as well. One of the real gems I learned in this hobby is that what gets to your ears is not entirely coming from speakers. But so much of unwanted reflections from your room shapes what finally gets in those ears. You'd be surprised that some of the most expensive hardware can sound unlistneable in a very live untreated room. And conversely, a mediocre system can sound adequate in a well-treated room. Until you have done some resaonable room acoustic treaments, you may not be maxing out the potentials of your current set-up. The results can be very dramatic.

    And regardless of what some pressumptuous gurus will tell you, there is good reason why some brands are more expensive than others. And why some brands are preferred than others when it comes to serious listening. While we should be careful to spot snake oil claims and marketing hypes out there, the old dictum that you get what you pay for applies in this hobby just as anywhere else. Up to a point, beyond which the laws of diminishing returns apply as well. The problem is, you can only extract so much from what most consumer goods can deliver - what with so many compromises made between production cost and quality in order to deliver a mass-friendly sticker price. When you heard that Nautilus being driven by Rotel amps, pressumably in the right room conditions, your heard the big difference right. I know the feeling. I was in a similar situation in the past. With apogee speakers driven by Bryston amps in a nicely appointed listening room.

    So start first treating your room and moving speakers around for their optimum performance. That should max-put your current set-up. A well treated room will always max out the potentials of any hardware set-up, be they mass-fi or high end. Then if still unhappy, save up for that Rotel and B&W speakers you were impressed with. Frankly, I don't see any point settling for anything that doesn't impress you just because they're within your budget. It just doesn't work that way in this hobby. If you do, you'd end-up feeling that you are still missing something for not getting what you really wanted. That's so much like marrying someone for convenience and not having the spouse you've always wanted. You're creating an avenue for immediate future dissatisfaction.

    And let me say, if you are just getting similar mass products from Yamaha, Pioneer, Onkyo, Sony, etc., you really can't expect that much difference from your current Kenwood-Wharfedale set-up. You will just be moving around in circles. Never getting any higher to better sonics. Try auditioning separates from NAD, Rotel, Arcam, Krell, Lexicon, Bryston, Parasound, etc., and speakers/subs from B&W, REL, Sonus Faber, Martin Logan, Mission, etc. And hear for yourself the differences that can define excellent sonics from the merely adequate. I know you've heard a Rotel-B&W set-up. And rightly impressed. That's a start. Now hear the others.

    Also I would suggest that you get hold of really audiophile-grade recordings that can really tax the hell out of any system. Depending on your music genre preferrence, you may not be getting the most out of your current system, nor will it extract the most even with high end systems. This is actually one of the factors to consider when setting up a system. Most popular CDs are highly compressed so your system's dynamic abilities won't show. Some audiophiles are content with ensemble jazz and classical music which, while dynamically taxing, are often not as bass-demanding as most rock/electronic and pop music. Others are into heavy classical and jazz fusion stuff that can do both.

    Lastly, your listening levels will also be a factor. For audiophiles who like to listen at podium-realistic levels, nothing less than 300wpc will do. Higher if you listen in large rooms. And the equipment here can be most demanding, if not ultra expensive. But if you just want comfortable listening levels in a small room, even a 5-watt SET gear will suffice. Just my thoughts.
  18. zipper Full Audioholic

    zipper
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    Having a receiver that claims 5x110wpc but only consumes 190 watts is suspect to me.I read the posts from people here who claim that 100 watts is a 100 watts,that,sonically,there is no difference between receivers.Maybe that's true.Unless the 100wpc isn't really 100wpc,as av_phile has argued in the past.I just recently hooked an old 2x100 wpc amp to my Yamaha 3300(6x130wpc claimed) & guess what? My Axioms suddenly have a warmer sound & more bass.The 3300 consumes 500 watts,the amp 650 watts.
    I don't know squat compared to most people in here,but I do know what sounds good to me.And I know that an amp can't put out unless it's taking in 1st.

    A better receiver will probably make a difference but it probably won't be a cure-all.
  19. Polkfan Audioholic

    Polkfan
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    When a manufacturer claims that an amplifier is doing something it isn't then that is a different story. If you can look in two separate receivers and see very obvious differences in design (or the prescence/absence of required components), then there could be audible differences. But that is a different point all together from true double blinded listening tests where the equipment is carefully calibrated beforehand. Regardless of the results of such a test, quality is still quality. And the notion of buying the cheapest equipment and expecting it to perform at the level of higher quality equipment is erroneous anyway (up to a point).
    Does a $5000.00 AVR sound 10x better than a $500.00? Doubtful. Audio is a very subjective thing and everyone has his own preferences. But there does seem to be a line where certain claims made by a manufacturer just can't be met due to cost. Where is that line? $250.00? $500.00?
  20. zipper Full Audioholic

    zipper
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    My point exactly here Polkfan.I don't believe Cosmic is getting what is claimed for power out of his receiver.That will have his speakers underperforming.I'm not here to argue the pt of sonic differences of decent receivers,just to say that this guy could benefit from a better receiver.Doesn't mean he has to spend $5k to do that.

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