I want seperates! Tube or SS?

[john72953]

I've just shelled out for a new Turntable (Marantz TT-15S1), which completes my budget for this year. And now its time to save up for a 2-channel power/preamp combo for the rest of the year and possibly into 2010.

I'm undecided as to whether to go for a tube-combo or Solid-State (if that is the right terminology). My budget is $5,000 CDN ($4,000 USD).

Because I have a preference for analog as opposed to digital, I would be inclined to try and find something that is tube-based. I understand, from reading, reviewing, researching, etc., that my budget may not be adequate for that. Thoughts? Direction?

One of the products I am considering is the PrimaLuna Prologue Seven Monobloc's and matching PrimaLuna Three Preamplifier. This would bring me over my budget, but I'm prepared to wait for the preamp (as I can use my existing Yamaha HTR-6190B). The 2-channel setup will eventually be a seperate setup (speakers after that).

Whether Tube-based or not....any recommendations?

Much appreciated.

John

 

[highfigh]

If you don't have a problem with equipment that's pre-owned, you can get some serious bang for your buck. One of my clients found a 150 W/ch Audio Research power amp for $1500 and it was in mint condition. I would start by scouring the closest high end dealers and if you don't have any near you, find out who is in hte general area and find out what htey have.

 

[john72953]

If you don't have a problem with equipment that's pre-owned, you can get some serious bang for your buck. One of my clients found a 150 W/ch Audio Research power amp for $1500 and it was in mint condition. I would start by scouring the closest high end dealers and if you don't have any near you, find out who is in hte general area and find out what htey have.

I've thought of that as well. There is one particular dealer here in Toronto that specializes in analog and has some pretty high-end gear on consignment all the time. So that is something definately worth looking into. Toronto is in fact a pretty good town for audiophile stuff.

John

 

[TLS Guy]

I've just shelled out for a new Turntable (Marantz TT-15S1), which completes my budget for this year. And now its time to save up for a 2-channel power/preamp combo for the rest of the year and possibly into 2010.

I'm undecided as to whether to go for a tube-combo or Solid-State (if that is the right terminology). My budget is $5,000 CDN ($4,000 USD).

Because I have a preference for analog as opposed to digital, I would be inclined to try and find something that is tube-based. I understand, from reading, reviewing, researching, etc., that my budget may not be adequate for that. Thoughts? Direction?



One of the products I am considering is the PrimaLuna Prologue Seven Monobloc's and matching PrimaLuna Three Preamplifier. This would bring me over my budget, but I'm prepared to wait for the preamp (as I can use my existing Yamaha HTR-6190B). The 2-channel setup will eventually be a seperate setup (speakers after that).

Whether Tube-based or not....any recommendations?

Much appreciated.

John

The whole concept of tube being superior to solid state is false. They are demonstrably inferior. They can however be high priced tone controls for deficient speakers.

 

[john72953]

The whole concept of tube being superior to solid state is false. They are demonstrably inferior. They can however be high priced tone controls for deficient speakers.

Educate me please! Because there are many who completely disagree with you.

I'm not biased towards any solution....I do want to learn though.

John

 

[TLS Guy]

Educate me please! Because there are many who completely disagree with you.

I'm not biased towards any solution....I do want to learn though.

John

Tube amps are touted on the basis of soft clipping. However all clipping is unpleasant, I think. Tube amps are in general much lower in power than most solid sate amps. Therefore tube amps will clip sooner and more often than solid state amps. No clipping is much better than any clipping.

Tubes are softer. Well it is true that that most tube amps have a little HF roll off. However good speakers do not need, and will sound worse with HF roll off. There are still far too many poorly balanced and aggressive speakers around.

Tube amps require an output transformer, which inevitably introduces some hysteresis distortion.

The output transformer and the whole concept of tube design makes them totally unsuitable to drive some of the best speakers around. Most good recent speaker designs have complex impedance curves and often complex phase angles between voltage and current, that make them unsuitable to be driven by most tube amps.

Tube amps cost too much without adding benefit, in fact usually the reverse. They generally give more trouble and need tweaking. Grid bias in many needs adjusting every three to four months. This takes equipment and a little know how.

If you want a really good reliable no fuss solid state amp, then get a Quad 909. It does not get any better than that for most loads. The class C feed forward circuit is pure genius. Class A performance, just like tube and none of the draw backs of tubes or even solid state class A designs.

 

[WmAx]

What TLS says about tube amplifiers is absolutely correct. They often add audible coloration(s), where as a high quality tube amplifier is transparent; neutral if you will. This is backed by both perceptual research concerning audibility of frequency response and distortion thresholds and by real world listening tests that have been conducted.

Personally, I used 'high end' type amplifiers in the past, like McIntosh. But today I actually use high quality professional audio amplifiers such as Yamaha P2500S and P3500S amplifiers on my main stereo system, and other pro amps on my ultra linear monitor system. They are incredibly excellent amplifiers with high power and extreme efficiency thanks to a sophisticated infinitely variable dynamic tracking power supply, but not expensive at all. Of course, cosmetically, they may not be what some people want; they have a utilitarian/industrial appearance. In any event, I recommend very high power amplifiers if you have average efficiency speakers and listen to any dynamic music(such as classical or other purist type dynamic recordings). The P3500S amplifier for example, outputs 350 x 2 into 8 ohms/ 450 x2 into 4 ohms, both channels driven, 20Hz-20,000Hz. It only retails for $500 and you can find it a little cheaper if you shop around. There is no reason to buy expensive amplifiers unless you are doing so just for cosmetics. Are cosmetics really worth paying so much more money?

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

I've thought of that as well. There is one particular dealer here in Toronto that specializes in analog and has some pretty high-end gear on consignment all the time. So that is something definately worth looking into. Toronto is in fact a pretty good town for audiophile stuff.

John

You may want to contact him; lives in your area

http://www.morrisonaudio.com/recipes.html

He has a superb 2ch preamp, tested by The Audio Critic some time back.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Educate me please! Because there are many who completely disagree with you.

I'm not biased towards any solution....I do want to learn though.

John

Just to add to TLS's post, tube amps may have a much higher output impedance that will cause the amp to follow the speakers frequency response

 

[jliedeka]

It is possible to get tube amps without output transformers. They are called output transformerless (OTL) amps. It's a tricky design to get right. The guy that runs Atma-Sphere is probably the best designer of OTL amps. I know a guy that uses an Atma-Sphere pre-amp and a pair of the larger monoblocks to run a pair of Audio Physic Avantis. His system really sounds great but I know that one could achieve better sound for less money.

The two advantages of tube amps are soft clipping and more agreeable sounding distortion. The thing is, if you have a big enough amp, clipping should be a non-issue. Also, well designed amps have distortion levels way below audible levels. That pretty much dispenses with any advantage to be had with tube amps. Of course, the whole cool factor is another issue but I'm more interested in good sound than impressing my friends.

You don't need to spend $4-5k to get a great sounding system. For the pre-amp, the main thing is no audible noise. There are plenty of good pre-amps out there. Even op-amp based pre-amps can sound really good if they are designed well. My Cambridge Audio phono stage is dead quiet and doesn't mess with the sound. A good solid state class A/B or class D amp with enough watts will be as close to a straight wire with gain as you can get.

Jim

 

[john72953]

You may want to contact him; lives in your area

http://www.morrisonaudio.com/recipes.html

He has a superb 2ch preamp, tested by The Audio Critic some time back.

Very interesting. I've bookmarked his page in my 2-Channel Audio fave list, so he'll be one to consider once I get to the deciding stages.

John

 

[john72953]

The responses so far have suggested that Tube Gear is really not all it's cracked up to be. I would love to hear some opposing viewpoints (and I'll do my own researching over the weeks/months ahead), because without it all I have is a one-sided opinion.

If in fact the posters so far are correct, then tube equipment would not enter into my equation of equipment choices. And if I can spend less money than what I've budgeted, all the better (leaves more room for speakers)!

Thanks so far for your input!

John

 

[Warpdrv]

I have no data for you, but here is a newly released 2 channel preamp to check out...

http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/site/74030/117839/shopping/shopping-view.html?pid=335184&b_id=&find_groupid=17873

 

[3db]

The whole concept of tube being superior to solid state is false. They are demonstrably inferior. They can however be high priced tone controls for deficient speakers.

Whoa TLS. He never mentioned superiority. He just likes the sound of tubes is all.

 

[Hipnotic4]

You don't need to spend $4-5k to get a great sounding system.
Jim

yeap..once your touching above 5k, its really all personal tastes more or less..the gap between whats "better" and whats "best" is very, verrryy marginal..

 

[jostenmeat]

The responses so far have suggested that Tube Gear is really not all it's cracked up to be. I would love to hear some opposing viewpoints (and I'll do my own researching over the weeks/months ahead), because without it all I have is a one-sided opinion.

Ya know, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. There are many, many who like to have a tubed pre/pro coupled to a SS amplifier. Even some integrateds are hybrid (tubed pre with ss amp). I use a fully SS integrated, and my only regret in saving here was that separates would allow easier implementation of a room correction/EQ device in the future if I wanted.

my cdp is tubed, however. I think that might* mean I am enjoying/suffering euphonic distortions. I never budgeted for the cdp to begin with, but my Denon universal really sounded like crap I guess. I asked my dealer why I wasn't pleased after blowing all the money, and he said try a different unit for cdp . . . anyways . . . I'm sure something else could've been chosen for a couple hundred less . . . but the Denon was sibilant.

I wouldn't go too crazy with the electronics.

 

[WmAx]

The responses so far have suggested that Tube Gear is really not all it's cracked up to be. I would love to hear some opposing viewpoints (and I'll do my own researching over the weeks/months ahead), because without it all I have is a one-sided opinion.

If in fact the posters so far are correct, then tube equipment would not enter into my equation of equipment choices. And if I can spend less money than what I've budgeted, all the better (leaves more room for speakers)!

Thanks so far for your input!

John

My statements are based on perceptual research and real world double blinded testing, not speculation(s) and opinions with no more than heavily biased (psychologically) evidence as you will only find from the so-called audiophile camp on this issue.

But if you want tube distortion, a better way to go about it is a studio processor. You can get a line level pre-amp device that lets you insert a tube pre in the signal and adjust the exact level of tube 'sound' you want injected into the signal. You can also swap/roll tubes in the device if you so desire. This lets you choose if you want pristine sound or colored sound by inserting this device inline. This way your actual amplification and main pre-amp systems are neutral SS devices and you have total control over the coloration(s) you decide to insert. It is also not at all expensive. I'll get the exact model number for you if you find this idea of interest.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

Very interesting. I've bookmarked his page in my 2-Channel Audio fave list, so he'll be one to consider once I get to the deciding stages.

John

Didn't realize that that page was not his home page He is an interesting person to get to know.

 

[john72953]

My statements are based on perceptual research and real world double blinded testing, not speculation(s) and opinions with no more than heavily biased (psychologically) evidence as you will only find from the so-called audiophile camp on this issue.

But if you want tube distortion, a better way to go about it is a studio processor. You can get a line level pre-amp device that lets you insert a tube pre in the signal and adjust the exact level of tube 'sound' you want injected into the signal. You can also swap/roll tubes in the device if you so desire. This lets you choose if you want pristine sound or colored sound by inserting this device inline. This way your actual amplification and main pre-amp systems are neutral SS devices and you have total control over the coloration(s) you decide to insert. It is also not at all expensive. I'll get the exact model number for you if you find this idea of interest.
-Chris

Yes, I'd be very interested in learning more about this. There are so many variables out there, and what may at first have sounded like an innocent/easy question is turning out to be much more in-depth. Which is good as I want to learn and look at what is available and what, in the end, is best-suited for me!

John

 

[OttoMatic]

The responses so far have suggested that Tube Gear is really not all it's cracked up to be. I would love to hear some opposing viewpoints (and I'll do my own researching over the weeks/months ahead), because without it all I have is a one-sided opinion.

If in fact the posters so far are correct, then tube equipment would not enter into my equation of equipment choices. And if I can spend less money than what I've budgeted, all the better (leaves more room for speakers)!

Thanks so far for your input!

John

Hi John,

Have you posed this question at other forums? I'm sure there are other forums out there that will give you completely different opinions on this subject.

First, let me state that I'm not into tubes at all. I don't have them in my system now, though I used to have a tube in a Cal Audio Labs DAC. I do use them in guitar amps, but that's totally different.

So, without being an expert, I would imagine that there are tube amps out there that will suit ones needs based on their speakers and listening habits. I don't think that it's necessary to clip a tube amp, if it's played within its limits. The other technical arguments against tubes? I'm not sure if they matter or not -- it would take a lot of time, reading and research to fully understand everything that's been said thus far.

Regarding having a "transparent" and "neutral" system without any coloration whatsoever -- I'm not sure how much that matters, either! A better goal for which to strive might be a system whose sound you enjoy. I believe all systems will have some coloration to them, especially due to speakers, and there are many ways to enjoy music playback. There are so many measurements, tests and rules for all this... it definitely takes some of the fun out of it for me. I've been reading some photography sites, and one guy suggests that it's not important to create a perfect representation of what you've seen, but rather an piece of art of your own. Although somewhat different, the same goes (IMHO) for an audio system. It's an experience in putting pieces together. Otherwise, if we go on suggestions here, we'd all end up with something like this OnkyoReceiver->MonopriceCables->BehringerEP2500 because it'll measure perfectly and is the biggest bang for the buck. Well, maybe that's true and maybe it's not, but it doesn't make for much fun in this hobby.

So just go out and listen to tube and solid state products at your local dealers. Listen to the cheapest tube amps and the most expensive and see what differences you find. Same with tube vs. solid state.

And, yeah, there are lots of pieces out there that will get you in under $5k for preamp and amp.

Good luck!