Human Perception is the #1 variable

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I forgot this observation that you made. Its absolutely true that the actual, physical universe may bear very little resemblance to what is playing on the big screen inside your head. I try and explain this to my sons and it drives them crazy. My favorite trait is color. Color is a perceived attribute of an item. It is not an actual part of the item. An orange works as an example. There are no orange atoms. There is nothing orange about an orange in the tangible world. The light that is reflected, or absorbed, is something the human brain perceives and then tells you is there. Its right there on the big screen in your brain, but in the actual world, nope.

Sound is another complex phenomenon that we will just have to save for another rant. I will just leave you with this QUESTION: where is the big screen TV in your head? And if you have a projection system, where's the projector and where's the screen? How does your big screen tie to your sound system?
That aught to do it for now.
Color is a great example. Yes, there are no colors in the atomic or quantum world. It's the arrangement of atoms that reflect certain wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum that we perceive as color.

Here's something I contemplate sometimes, speaking of color. Is my orange the same as your orange? To you, my orange might be green, or vice versa, but we're both told it's orange from birth, so how would you know...?
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Color is a great example. Yes, there are no colors in the atomic or quantum world. It's the arrangement of atoms that reflect certain wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum that we perceive as color.

Here's something I contemplate sometimes, speaking of color. Is my orange the same as your orange? To you, my orange might be green, or vice versa, but we're both told it's orange from birth, so how would you know...?
Pogre
And what is mauve anyway? All I really know about mauve is that if you say you know what it is, you can get your man-card pulled. So if you know, mums the word.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Color is a great example. Yes, there are no colors in the atomic or quantum world. It's the arrangement of atoms that reflect certain wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum that we perceive as color.

Here's something I contemplate sometimes, speaking of color. Is my orange the same as your orange? To you, my orange might be green, or vice versa, but we're both told it's orange from birth, so how would you know...?
Pogre
I just had another thought. My brain is very slow today. One of my grandsons turns 18 this year. About six months ago his parents bought him a pair of very special eye glasses. Turns out, he is color blind. The red-green flavor. They now have glasses that will fool his brain in to seeing a color spectrum that more closely matches what you and I may see.

He spent the first month wearing those glasses walking around going "oh wow, so that's what you were talking about". Color is a perceived attribute. His perception for a looooooong time was very different about what orange was. And just about 1/2 the other colors that involve some interaction with red and green.

Yep, we may be close on that orange. Or, we may be worlds apart. Just don't eat the ornamental oranges. They taste nasty.
 
Mika

Mika

Audiophyte
Esteemed Audioholics:
I would like to put forward that the listener is not an objective and consistent part of the audio puzzle. The listener is a bag of unreliable, changing, and totally wobbly bits of goo that often hears what is not there and ignores many things that are there. Human perception has such an impact on what we think we hear, we become unreliable judges in our own listening.

Thoughts? Opinions?
Yes! Bucknekked, thank you for posting this. This skeptical and scientific approach is what's missing in so many "audiophiles" and consumers. We are often too quick to attribute our happiness level on the product and speaker/headphone but not our listening rooms, amplification equipment, power quality or, last but not least our own hearing and/or interpretation by our biased minds to what we are hearing. The power of suggestion is greater than any measurable watt an amplifier can put out or a speaker driver radiates.

I also think many times we can get so lost in gear and the specifics of audio tech that we can forget about what it's all ultimately for...and that's listening and enjoying the experience. And no matter what reproduction equipment you have, if you are having fun and enjoying yourself, you win.

BTW, off-topic, but I see the user Swerd posting from Gaithersburg, MD. I hail from Columbia, MD. How can I set my forum account to display my location on my posts. Hoping to connecting with some other local Audioholics...
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I offer a subtle revision to this thread: Human Bias is the #1 variable.

If you are reviewing products in a sited demonstration, the opinions formed are of little use scientifically. Stereophonic listening masks poor dispersion in speakers, so test in mono. Making the test blind is the only way to eliminate the human variable - assuming the listeners hearing has been tested to verify 'normal' hearing.

It's gonna be a rough road for reviewers - Standards like CEA 2034 eliminate the need to even hear a speaker. The comprehensive data clearly illustrates a mediocre product from a great one. Now to get manufacturers on board!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Pogre
And what is mauve anyway? All I really know about mauve is that if you say you know what it is, you can get your man-card pulled. So if you know, mums the word.
Man card doesn't need to be turned in if someone knows what 'mauve' is- Sony XBR TVs were available in Mauve, Taupe and a kind of mottled black/gray called 'Anthracite'. Anthracite was also the name of the color in BMW car interiors (very dark gray, named for the color of Anthracite coal).

Take that!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Esteemed Audioholics:
I would like to put forward a thought that may spit in to the wind (and yes, tug on Superman's cape).
The audio hobby is chock full of opinions on what one needs to fix,replace, or buy to get the best sound.
I have noticed over the years a phenomenon in my own listening world that I am often the most unreliable piece of the puzzle in listening to music. I can have a system that's installed, debugged, tuned and playing music as well as it can. Yet, from day to day, from listening session to listening session, it will sound a little different. How so?

I would like to put forward that the listener is not an objective and consistent part of the audio puzzle. The listener is a bag of unreliable, changing, and totally wobbly bits of goo that often hears what is not there and ignores many things that are there. Human perception has such an impact on what we think we hear, we become unreliable judges in our own listening.

This isn't something to fix. Perhaps its what each of us should realize before we make snap judgements with just a single listening session about how something sounds. Or, it would perhaps point out the futility of basing decisions on the opinions of others when it comes to how something sounds.

Thoughts? Opinions? Ever had the experience of a system sounding poor one day, and great another?
Not only is the mind not the most stable/consistent part of the process, our ears are constantly bombarded by sounds and we often have no control over whether we will be exposed, or the SPL and duration. Ever have to be near a fan that's blowing all day long and felt that your ears were 'tired'? Yup. Ever been in an office where they used white noise coming from the ceiling to mask sounds from other areas, but it was definitely noticeable? That's another cause. Ever feel some kind of pressure on your ears when you weren't in a place that was sealed from the outside and there was no reason the air should have been pressurized? That could have been from high frequencies coming from an old TV, old alarm system that used Doppler Effect or test equipment/computer power supply oscillations.

One thing that can cause variations in our perception is in how we listen. Critical listening isn't something a person just decides they can or will do- what are they listening for? Hearing is very different from 'listening'.

I went to a local high end store last week and while they were unpacking a turntable to be set up, they had some music playing from an Aurender media server through Audio Research electronics and Vandersteen speakers, at a very low level. While we weren't speaking, I listened and occasionally moved in the room- I was standing almost in-line with the speakers and the vocalist still seemed to be behind the speakers (couldn't stand in-line, because the preamp was there and I don't think they would have appreciated me standing on it). I moved to the right & left and it still seemed to come from the middle, behind the speakers.

I asked if he hears a lot of comments about how so much detail is audible at such low SPL and he laughed before saying, "As a matter of fact, I do". So many people think their system needs to beat them over the head with the audio level when that's just not necessary when listening for fine details. Granted, some sounds aren't audible below a certain SPL because they would be masked by other sounds, many of them ambient, but a sense of space, placement and dynamics can still be gained by not cranking the volume control to WOT. It not only prevents the room's acoustics being a problem, it gives our ears a rest.

Critical listening is a skill and it takes time to develop the ability- it's not a matter of hearing a few electrons moving (or not) through a cable that comes with a story, it's more about learning to hear what's actually there. Tests have been conducted to find out if the so-called 'Golden-Eared Audiophile' can hear things others can't WRT response, threshold, etc- they can't. They listen, they don't just hear. Musicians and people who mix/record music listen differently, too.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
BTW, off-topic, but I see the user Swerd posting from Gaithersburg, MD. I hail from Columbia, MD. How can I set my forum account to display my location on my posts. Hoping to connecting with some other local Audioholics...
Mika, greetings from Gaithersburg!

I thought there was an easy answer to your question. I spent a few minutes hunting for it, but never found how show location. Maybe a moderator can help.
 
Dan Madden

Dan Madden

Audioholic
The two biggest factors to how music sounds to me are ear fatigue and mood. Music almost always sounds better to me in the morning. After 8 hours of sleep, my ears and body are rested and the music flows into me better and my ears being rested are much receptive to listening. Mood is a big one too. Some days I REALLY feel like listening to music. Other days not. On the days I'm not, the music does not sound as good, regardless on the gear it's being played back on.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Mika, greetings from Gaithersburg!

I thought there was an easy answer to your question. I spent a few minutes hunting for it, but never found how show location. Maybe a moderator can help.
Move your cursor to your screen name at the upper right of the page, then click on Profile Details, at the top of the list. In this, you'll see 'Information', but if you scroll down, you should see a button for 'Location' at the left edge, near the bottom.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Move your cursor to your screen name at the upper right of the page, then click on Profile Details, at the top of the list. In this, you'll see 'Information', but if you scroll down, you should see a button for 'Location' at the left edge, near the bottom.
highfigh,
I must be an idjit. I don't see anything that allows me to indicate or display location. I recognize cockpit error is often the source of why I can't find stuff. Nonetheless, I am bereft of location ability.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Man card doesn't need to be turned in if someone knows what 'mauve' is- Sony XBR TVs were available in Mauve, Taupe and a kind of mottled black/gray called 'Anthracite'. Anthracite was also the name of the color in BMW car interiors (very dark gray, named for the color of Anthracite coal).

Take that!
highfigh
If you know what Anthracite is, that's perfectly OK. I have Anthracite colored wood in my current BMW. Since its a feature code for BMW, I am safe in knowing that. It also is associated with coal mining which is a very manly topic.

Taupe is a borderline thing. Its a little sketchy. I have a joke where taupe is part of the punchline so I feel safe in telling the joke, but not asking for taupe as a color if I am asked for a color. Its also been the color of nylons at the grocery store for 20 years. I can know that. But, I should refrain from asking for a pair of nylons in taupe.

I will stand firm, with the man book in my hand, that its grounds for temporary confiscation of your man card if you knowingly bring up that you know what mauve is and have actually chosen an item and asked for it in mauve. Your statement that the Sony XBR TV was available in mauve is troubling. I will have to check the archives to see what the protocol is for a cool item that happens to get named in a color we aren't supposed to know. Sony XBR's were cool (are cool).



Ron Swanson is a busy guy and may not be available to comment for a few days. And yes, for those of you who are getting ready to write me serious tomes, this is tongue in cheek humor.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Stereophonic listening masks poor dispersion in speakers, so test in mono. Making the test blind is the only way to eliminate the human variable - assuming the listeners hearing has been tested to verify 'normal' hearing.

It's gonna be a rough road for reviewers - Standards like CEA 2034 eliminate the need to even hear a speaker. The comprehensive data clearly illustrates a mediocre product from a great one. Now to get manufacturers on board!
The Warrior
I agree: for scientific testing and measurement, monophonic sound is the only what to go. I don't do much of that, but, I understand the principal and agree. I must confess, I do not know what CEA 2034 is. It sounds like from your brief description it is some sort of objective, numbers based appraisal of equipment. If you have a plain english description (using short, single syllable words) of it, I would like to know a little more. Don't cut n paste me a lengthy article that will exceed my ADD's attention span, but if you can explain it, I would love to know more.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
highfigh,
I must be an idjit. I don't see anything that allows me to indicate or display location. I recognize cockpit error is often the source of why I can't find stuff. Nonetheless, I am bereft of location ability.
@highfigh Me, too. I think I read somewhere before you need a mod to help....
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
The Warrior
I agree: for scientific testing and measurement, monophonic sound is the only what to go. I don't do much of that, but, I understand the principal and agree. I must confess, I do not know what CEA 2034 is. It sounds like from your brief description it is some sort of objective, numbers based appraisal of equipment. If you have a plain english description (using short, single syllable words) of it, I would like to know a little more. Don't cut n paste me a lengthy article that will exceed my ADD's attention span, but if you can explain it, I would love to know more.
CEA 2034 is a Standard related to consumer electronics, similar to a building code. 2034 outlines a measurement procedure developed by Harman engineers: Take a single loudspeaker, place in anechoic space, measure the horizontal axis in 10deg increments (0 and 360 are the same measurement, so 35 measurements) and then lay the speaker on it's side and repeat for vertical axis, for a total of 70 measurements.

By applying formula's to the data:

direct sound (on axis),
listening window(+/- 30deg),
sound power(total sound radiated by loudspeaker in to the room),
directivity index (as frequency increases, the sound becomes evermore forward-biased - 0= omni directional source - On a speaker with smooth on axis response, this figure is usually the inverse of the sound power; just an example of the relationships between these data)
and more -

can be computed and demonstrated in an easy to read graph.
(start around 21mins to get straight to quick explanation and then see these measurements) is a lecture by Floyd Toole, effectively the audiobook (short) version of his book, 'Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms' from which I have studied and will be building my own loudspeakers with, using this standard. It should be requisite reading material for anyone claiming 'audiophile' status. Understanding how to achieve good bass in a room is much more about the room than the woofer, and Floyd can show you how!
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
CEA 2034 is a Standard related to consumer electronics, similar to a building code. 2034 outlines a measurement procedure developed by Harman engineers: Take a single loudspeaker, place in anechoic space, measure the horizontal axis in 10deg increments (0 and 360 are the same measurement, so 35 measurements) and then lay the speaker on it's side and repeat for vertical axis, for a total of 70 measurements.

By applying formula's to the data:

direct sound (on axis),
listening window(+/- 30deg),
sound power(total sound radiated by loudspeaker in to the room),
directivity index (as frequency increases, the sound becomes evermore forward-biased - 0= omni directional source - On a speaker with smooth on axis response, this figure is usually the inverse of the sound power; just an example of the relationships between these data)
and more -

can be computed and demonstrated in an easy to read graph.
CEA-2034 uses the same graph that Harman does, the ones you describe, but all you are talking about is the CEA-2034 presentation of the frequency response data. The CEA-2034 standard involves a lot more than just that.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
CEA-2034 uses the same graph that Harman does, the ones you describe, but all you are talking about is the CEA-2034 presentation of the frequency response data. The CEA-2034 standard involves a lot more than just that.
Those graphs are the relevant data derived from CEA 2034. The standard is entirely based on the afore mentioned procedure. I bought the standard and will be using it this year to develop my own DIY speakers. I think it would be amazing if this data were available on every speaker. Sure you'd cut it down to just a few brands or small DIYers operating local installs, but doesn't everybody deserve good sound without doing extensive research?
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
CEA-2034 uses the same graph that Harman does, the ones you describe, but all you are talking about is the CEA-2034 presentation of the frequency response data. The CEA-2034 standard involves a lot more than just that.
I actually watched most of some Floyd Toole videos the other day because he was on a topic I have an interest in. He was speaking on just how fallible and prejudiced speaker reviewers within the Harmon company were when he joined. He documented it and proved it with the first real double blind tests. He showed his companies own golden ears were just as swayed as everybody else if they could see the speakers in the comparison and know what they were being tested on. But if you removed them from site and removed the testing criteria, they gave differing results.

It boosted my contentions around human perception creeping in to just about every aspect of trying to subjectively evaluate sound. I enjoyed listening to Floyd a great deal. That guy is a treasure of good stuff.
Someone said in a post that if you want to be an "audiophile" you gotta know Floyd Tooles work. I don't know that I want to be an "audiophile" but I do think an understanding of his work is a good place to base some basic assumptions.

If an objective standard flows out of his stuff, I'm good with that. I think it may end up like Exxon mobile buying up patents for alternate fuel cars and simply putting those ideas out to pasture. The audio industry isn't interested in objective standards. Not that I've seen. End users and consumers might be, but I don't sense the sellers are keen on it.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... The audio industry isn't interested in objective standards. Not that I've seen. End users and consumers might be, but I don't sense the sellers are keen on it.
Why would they be? Then their speakers might sound like the other speakers and then they'd really have to compete for that $$$. As is, they can just bs their way to their customers.
Most of the cable would be history, a very good thing. :D
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Those graphs are the relevant data derived from CEA 2034. The standard is entirely based on the afore mentioned procedure. I bought the standard and will be using it this year to develop my own DIY speakers. I think it would be amazing if this data were available on every speaker. Sure you'd cut it down to just a few brands or small DIYers operating local installs, but doesn't everybody deserve good sound without doing extensive research?
The protocol described in the standard is a bit demanding. I would consider it a major project just to be able to meet the standard. If you can do it just for your DIY projects, you are quite the completist. I don't even think many speaker manufacturers would bother strictly adhering to the standard because of the time and detail involved. I have a review coming out that actually has the full suite of curves you mentioned, direct axis, listening window, sound power, sound power index, etc. As far as I know, it will be the first review to do that. But even the measuring I do does not fully adhere to the CEA-2034 protocol, although the graphs and measurements will be accurate. Good luck with your project, and please let me know how it goes!
 
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