Human Perception is the #1 variable

[Bucknekked]

Esteemed Audioholics:
I would like to put forward a thought that may spit in to the wind (and yes, tug on Superman's cape).
The audio hobby is chock full of opinions on what one needs to fix,replace, or buy to get the best sound.
I have noticed over the years a phenomenon in my own listening world that I am often the most unreliable piece of the puzzle in listening to music. I can have a system that's installed, debugged, tuned and playing music as well as it can. Yet, from day to day, from listening session to listening session, it will sound a little different. How so?

I would like to put forward that the listener is not an objective and consistent part of the audio puzzle. The listener is a bag of unreliable, changing, and totally wobbly bits of goo that often hears what is not there and ignores many things that are there. Human perception has such an impact on what we think we hear, we become unreliable judges in our own listening.

This isn't something to fix. Perhaps its what each of us should realize before we make snap judgements with just a single listening session about how something sounds. Or, it would perhaps point out the futility of basing decisions on the opinions of others when it comes to how something sounds.

Thoughts? Opinions? Ever had the experience of a system sounding poor one day, and great another?

 

[j_garcia]

I find that my system pretty much sounds the same way it was after I spent those dozens of hours dialing it in to how I wanted it to sound, however it is totally true that factor #1 is the listener. Your mood can change your listening experience. Your familiarity or lack of familiarity with a particular track or film can affect how you feel about how it sounds.

That's why I ALWAYS tell people they need to go listen to some speakers BEFORE THEY BUY. Everyone hears differently and has their own opinion, so a recommendation is just that. You need to decide what type of sound you like and what works in your environment because every single setup is different.

 

[shadyJ]

Likewise, I have never had it happen where I felt the sound system had changed based on a mood.

I do think mood can affect one's experience though. Expectation colors perception. I can easily see someone in a bad mood go and demo some sound equipment, and have their mood color their experience for the worse. From the studies I have seen, people can identify accurate sound pretty well, but of course this is done in experiments where expectation is removed from the testing as much as possible. It's a big subject, and none of us are immune to our biases altering our perception. Objective measurements are hugely important in gauging whether a speaker is accurate or not, because we can not trust our own senses.

 

[KEW]

Esteemed Audioholics:
I would like to put forward a thought that may spit in to the wind (and yes, tug on Superman's cape).
The audio hobby is chock full of opinions on what one needs to fix,replace, or buy to get the best sound.
I have noticed over the years a phenomenon in my own listening world that I am often the most unreliable piece of the puzzle in listening to music. I can have a system that's installed, debugged, tuned and playing music as well as it can. Yet, from day to day, from listening session to listening session, it will sound a little different. How so?

I would like to put forward that the listener is not an objective and consistent part of the audio puzzle. The listener is a bag of unreliable, changing, and totally wobbly bits of goo that often hears what is not there and ignores many things that are there. Human perception has such an impact on what we think we hear, we become unreliable judges in our own listening.

This isn't something to fix. Perhaps its what each of us should realize before we make snap judgements with just a single listening session about how something sounds. Or, it would perhaps point out the futility of basing decisions on the opinions of others when it comes to how something sounds.

Thoughts? Opinions? Ever had the experience of a system sounding poor one day, and great another?

I pretty much agree as expressed here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/marantz-mm8077-vs-yamaha-mxa-5000.105133/page-2#post-1154087

Here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/got-a-turntable-and-i-dont-get-it.96441/page-2#post-1099139

and here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect-in-audio-beyond.69856/#post-768391

and here is another thread that parallels yours:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/imagined-vs-actual-improvements-we-hear.93977/

 

[Swerd]

I have noticed over the years a phenomenon in my own listening world that I am often the most unreliable piece of the puzzle in listening to music.

I would like to put forward that the listener is not an objective and consistent part of the audio puzzle.

That is our preferred Kool Aid flavor around here at AH. However, if audiophile trolls show up, we prefer to speak of it as unflavored .

It's time to march out some of my favorite quotes:

The first principle of scientific inquiry is that you must not fool yourself – and that you are the easiest person to fool. – Richard Feynman

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. – Mark Twain​

 

[Bucknekked]

That is our preferred Kool Aid flavor around here at AH. However, if audiophile trolls show up, we prefer to speak of it as unflavored .

It's time to march out some of my favorite quotes:

The first principle of scientific inquiry is that you must not fool yourself – and that you are the easiest person to fool. – Richard Feynman

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. – Mark Twain​

The Mark Twain quote is one of my personal favorites. A remarkable set of country wisdom from that guy and he never set foot in an audio showroom.

 

[Bucknekked]

Likewise, I have never had it happen where I felt the sound system had changed based on a mode.

I do think mode can affect one's experience though. Expectation colors perception. I can easily see someone in a bad mode go and demo some sound equipment, and have their mode color their experience for the worse.

Shadyj
I think your train of thought is right where I was headed if you mean mood instead of mode. Our moods and even something as simple as time of day can affect our perception of sound.

I am married to a hearing impaired person. My wife has had progressive congenital hearing loss that's increased since the day I met her. Several of our adult children are headed down the same path. Because of this, I have learned a tremendous amount about how we hear over the years. Music systems aside, how we hear is a marvelously complex endeavor. Many people that don't hang out with the hearing impaired think that amplification is all that's needed to help someone with hearing loss. If it was only that simple.

Those who say "each person hears a sound differently" are speaking more truth than they probably know.

 

[Bucknekked]

I pretty much agree as expressed here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/marantz-mm8077-vs-yamaha-mxa-5000.105133/page-2#post-1154087

Here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/got-a-turntable-and-i-dont-get-it.96441/page-2#post-1099139

and here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-power-of-the-placebo-effect-in-audio-beyond.69856/#post-768391

and here is another thread that parallels yours:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/imagined-vs-actual-improvements-we-hear.93977/

KEW
those pretty much hit the perception nail on the head. I read all 3 of the thread suggestions and I see that many others have become aware of this phenomenon way ahead of me (and are more articulate).
Its fascinating to examine yourself and your own behaviors and experience and have to admit that in any given system, you're most likely the least reliable component. Yet, at the audio rags, the purveyors of the purple prose would have you believe they can rise above it all. What a fun hobby. I love it.

 

[shadyJ]

Yeah, I meant mood, not mode.

And hearing physiology is amazing. I have read a handful of books on the subject, audiology is interesting stuff. And on top of the intricacy and ingenuity of the ear physiology is the vast discipline of Psychoacoustics, whereby the brain tried to sort through the data. It is a staggering system on the whole which will never be equaled by a computer. Yet so many people abuse this amazing system and casually damage it beyond repair. As you say, its not just a matter of turning the volume up to compensate for hearing damage; many aspects of hearing are destroyed. Our ability to localize sound, our ability to differentiate different tones, our ability to recognize sounds, it all gets hurt and can not be fixed by making the sound louder.

 

[KEW]

Yet, at the audio rags, the purveyors of the purple prose would have you believe they can rise above it all.

Certainly, my ego would rather have it that way!

One thing I can say is that my perception of what sounds better is consistent when A-B'ing speakers by immediately switching between them.
IOW, if my mood is foul, I will still prefer the sound I preferred when my mood was good.

I believe we are fairly consistent and repeatable for a relative comparison (with no delay between the two options). But once a delay is entered, we are subject not only to changes in our memory of what we heard, but also changes in our mood, chemical balance, did you go outside and increase your vitamin D along the way, Did we get a sugar crash after the OJ we drank this morning, etc.

But for an absolute comparison (as in I heard my very good speakers at home, now I am going to go to the store and see what is better), that is where we are pretty poor. Although I will say, since it is something I do often and I have a CD of select songs and I have noted which parts of which songs often reveal issues; I have gotten better at predicting what I will experience when I bring a pair home to compare. But "better than poor" is still not very good. I just want to say that training is certainly a factor.

I particularly like your phrase:

The listener is a bag of unreliable, changing, and totally wobbly bits of goo

 

[lovinthehd]

Mood definitely affects me and my music listening, as I do it under a wide variety of circumstances in several different setups through the course of a day generally. If we're talking a dedicated critical listening deal, which is but one way of listening for me, i.e. under controlled/consistent conditions, then not so much.

 

[Swerd]

@Bucknekked
I'm especially glad you understand the full difference between sound sensing or hearing (performed by the ear) and sound perception (performed by the brain).

The ears are hardwired to the brain, so most of us cannot disconnect them and use our ears without also letting the brain influence things. Unfortunately, those of us who loose the ability to perceive sound don't have the option of reconnecting things. Sorry to learn about your wife's and several of your offspring's condition.

 

[Pogre]

I actually read about and watch videos on subjects like this pretty often. Human perception is a very quirky thing. If you believe the computer simulation hypothesis, objects we perceive don't even exist until observed. Then our brains stitch it together in a way we can comprehend. I don't know all the science behind it, but I guess there's even evidence of it. I don't think the universe "looks" anything like the way we perceive it. poop like this fascinates me.

I completely agree that time, setting, day, mood... many contributing factors can alter your perception of sound. the ambient air pressure that day might have an effect even (just now thought of that one ). I can listen to the same track from the same source on different days, or even times, and have to mess with settings because it's just not quite right when it was perfect last night.

 

[Pogre]

Life experiences can shape the way you perceive also. My dad was in a small local band. When I was a kid I used to sit in on their practices, help load the equipment, hook stuff up... I played drums for a few years. Anyway, I grew up around music and have seen a lot of live performances (not just my dad's band). I think that's absolutely shaped my perception and expectations when it comes to music. I like accurate speakers that don't color music.

 

[Bucknekked]

I actually read about and watch videos on subjects like this pretty often. Human perception is a very quirky thing. I don't think the universe "looks" anything like the way we perceive it. poop like this fascinates me.

I completely agree that time, setting, day, mood... many contributing factors can alter your perception of sound. the ambient air pressure that day might have an effect even (just now thought of that one ). I can listen to the same track from the same source on different days, or even times, and have to mess with settings because it's just not quite right when it was perfect last night.

Pogre,
I have read many scholarly works (and yes, I have many leather bound books just like Ron Burgundy) on the subject of human perception. Indeed, your brain is creating, fabricating and literally making up the world you perceive through your 5 senses. Most people, when you try and explain it, just nod their heads and say "yeah, I know that". B.S. Most people have no idea the extent to which your brain is making things up as it goes. Audio is no exception. Trained ears are no exception.

There are a number of simple perception tests you can do that demonstrate how completely vulnerable you are to your own brains creative work. Here are a set of books by a guy who's spent most of his adult life working on the brain and human perception. I have read most of them. Fascinating stuff.
https://www.amazon.com/V.-S.-Ramachandran/e/B001IGHMGU/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

Another about the brain and the effects of music on the brain. Yeah, the effect of music on the brain is a thing.
https://www.amazon.com/Musicophilia-Tales-Music-Revised-Expanded/dp/1400033535/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8

Like I said originally, and I stand by it : The listener is a bag of unreliable, changing, and totally wobbly bits of goo that often hears what is not there and ignores many things that are there. Human perception has such an impact on what we think we hear, we become unreliable judges in our own listening.

 

[Bucknekked]

. I don't think the universe "looks" anything like the way we perceive it. poop like this fascinates me.

I forgot this observation that you made. Its absolutely true that the actual, physical universe may bear very little resemblance to what is playing on the big screen inside your head. I try and explain this to my sons and it drives them crazy. My favorite trait is color. Color is a perceived attribute of an item. It is not an actual part of the item. An orange works as an example. There are no orange atoms. There is nothing orange about an orange in the tangible world. The light that is reflected, or absorbed, is something the human brain perceives and then tells you is there. Its right there on the big screen in your brain, but in the actual world, nope.

Sound is another complex phenomenon that we will just have to save for another rant. I will just leave you with this QUESTION: where is the big screen TV in your head? And if you have a projection system, where's the projector and where's the screen? How does your big screen tie to your sound system?
That aught to do it for now.

 

[shadyJ]

I don't 100% agree with you on some of this. It could be argued that color is like sound, it is just a perception, but it is a sensation of a physical property. Sound is just the sensation of air pressure waves and color is just the sensation of visible electromagnetic waves. Sure it is heavily processed information, but that does not make it invalid or unreflective of an objective reality.

 

[Muzykant]

Interesting topic. I cannot say with certainty that I my systems sound different to me day to day, but I rarely sit down to listen and often move about the room during playback. I think I felt on certain days lack of bass or strangely shrilling highs, but I cannot be sure.

Here are some observations I made over the years.

Back when I was a kid, I often woke up to the sounds of familiar recordings my parents were listening to. I remember wondering why pieces and songs I knew so well sounded faster first thing in the morning, only to slow down to normal tempo later in the day.

When I myself became a musician, I learned many compositions by ear. I was surprised to notice that when I was sick and had a slight fever, music seemed to have higher resolution and I could learn it quicker. It felt like I was listening through a magnifying glass, if that makes sense.

Still later, when I began my performing career, I noticed that my perception of tempo on stage was affected by the adrenaline. After examining recordings of my performances I discovered that what felt like normal tempo on stage was actually faster than I thought.

Even today when I try to sing a note (I almost have perfect pitch, but not quite) in the morning without referencing the tuner, it usually comes out somewhat flat. I am much more accurate later in the day.

 

[Bucknekked]

I don't 100% agree with you on some of this. It could be argued that color is like sound, it is just a perception, but it is a sensation of a physical property. Sound is just the sensation of air pressure waves and color is just the sensation of visible electromagnetic waves. Sure it is heavily processed information, but that does not make it invalid or unreflective of an objective reality.

shadyj:
I did not mean to imply invalid or unreflective (good pun). Not at all. If that was the impression, I did not intend that.

The only reality you and I have is based on that heavily processed information. Our species has survived and prospered using that processed view of the physical world rather well I would think. My only point remains that we as humans are the least reliable and objective part of any sound system, or, any system that involves us evaluating something based on our brain. The physical world played on the big screen in your head would look different if you could take a look over your shoulder and see what's on the tiny TV in my head. You'd be shocked at all the barking dogs laying around.

This is a topic that can be bandied about until we are all dust. Shadyj, you obviously have a grasp on it, as well as Pogre and others. What I enjoy is poking those folks that have no concept of their own brains abilities and what it spends most of the day doing. If you will excuse me, I have to go and get those barking dogs in my head to quiet down. I have a speaker audition to attend this morning.

 

[Bucknekked]

Interesting topic.I think I felt on certain days lack of bass or strangely shrilling highs, but I cannot be sure.

Here are some observations I made over the years.

.

Muzykant:
I enjoyed your observations about your perceptions of music. Because you are a performer, it somehow adds a bit of gravitas for me. Your responses are in line with what I see and hear as I listen to music over time. I am a broken down owner of a Les Paul guitar. I wish I could say I was an excellent player of guitar, but alas, if time on the clock is the measure, I am more of an owner than player. But the limited playing I do also gives me an immense appreciation for the skill and sound of real musicians.

Thanks for your well thought out comments.