How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
There is no problem if you are listening "to the speakers" and they make you happy, however if you want to listen "to the music" as it was intended the recorded measurements can show you how faithfully the speakers can reproduce the recording. But you have to know how to read the measurements, and have all the right ones.
In your room...
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I am also going to have to disagree with you there Irv, if the speaker sounds "good" to the end user, thats all there is, I don't care what them graphs say, they can be laser straight form 2hz to 20000 and if I hear them with music I like and they don't sound right, then I won't be a buyer, you know who will be though? All the guys that buy gear because of the name plate, or all the guys that focus on the graphs more than the music... I have heard stories of people who "show off" their systems by pulling out some papers that look like my kids math homework, but for me I would rather pop a disc in and turn the volume up...

I don't even know what colorization is, but I can tell you that to me Epos Elan 15's better than Focal diamonds, and monitor audio silvers sound better than studio 60's, and graphs had nothing to do with it, my ears did the work, I listened to them all and made a decision...

Now if you like that part of the hobby, than great, read the graphs, measure your system every time you listen, but don't let it dilute the point of having a nice stereo system, its to have good sound not a fancy brand, or speaker that measures "well"...

I have other hobbies where I pay great attention to the numbers because they matter, like in long range shooting, I measure and record ballistics for certain rounds {that I make myself}, I record shooting patterns, ect . but that is the point of the hobby, to get better and produce better ammo and firearms... With speakers the purpose is music, unless you are building speakers, they are just a way to deliver the music to your ears...
And will everyone agree to what EXACTLY is "coloration"?

Or is there going to be a difference in opinion?

Why is it a "problem" if the person loves the sound of the speakers?

It's only a problem if the person does NOT love the sound of the speakers.
I knew I would get these two replies.

Irv, think of coloring just like leaving tone controls in a non-flat position all the time for every recording. If the controls are set to boost bass, cut the midrange, and boost treble then every recording gets that equalization profile. You may like it, but soon you may notice that kick drums never really sound like actual kick drums, that the orchestra's triangle sounds like its sides are three feet long, and you can't hear the rosin on the violins the way you do at the concert.

And, no, I don't measure my system every day. I don't keep equipment reviews laying on the coffee table either. :)

As for you, ADTG, this is exactly why I stopped using you as a leading indicator of what speakers I'm apt to like. I judge speakers relative to a reference, you judge speakers by whether or not you like listening to them. Two *very* different objectives.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Buying speakers that measure perfectly flat or play the music just as it was recorded, only works for the few people that have perfect hearing.
The rest of us have to contend with the fact that our hearing isn't the same as when we were 18 years old.
We all need recent hearing tests to determine at what frequencies we can still hear and where on the spectrum we have a loss.
That means the solution is, what sounds good to 'You'.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Buying speakers that measure perfectly flat or play the music just as it was recorded, only works for the few people that have perfect hearing.
The rest of us have to contend with the fact that our hearing isn't the same as when we were 18 years old.
We all need recent hearing tests to determine at what frequencies we can still hear and where on the spectrum we have a loss.
That means the solution is, what sounds good to 'You'.
I have to disagree. If your ears are nonlinear, and everyone's ears are nonlinear, the same sensitivity function will be applied to live instruments and the speakers. Speakers should try to reproduce what the instruments emit no matter what your hearing is like.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
And that's what I do. You should try it some time. All it takes is a handheld digital recorder.
Believe me I want to, but I am scared, because that is how it started with long range shooting and reloading... I bought a chronograph and some charts then a couple hundred thousand dollars later, I still shoot the same and do a lot more work, lol... Before I used to just buy a gun, buy a box of bullets and go to the range... NOW I build a gun have guns built, record shots, laod all my ammo, measure each grain of powder, cut cases, weigh cartridges, blah blah blah blah... And its really no more fun than before, maybe even less with a lot more work... So no mics aloud...
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I've always been of the mind that speakers should be matched to the ears of the purchaser.
Just as eye glasses are matched to one's eyes and shoes measured to fit our feet.
It's not as radical as it sounds and won't matter that the speakers only match the guy that paid for them. Since most of one's hearing (or their families') doesn't match the frequency peaks and valleys of the speakers they currently own now anyway.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
In the pictures Herbu posted there are some excellent examples of loudspeaker engineering that use multiples of smaller drivers. There is even an example of how not to mount your drivers. (RBH)
The RBH speakers in question (IE. T2 system) can be challenging to integrate into a room b/c of the multi-tweeter design. The system acts as a dispersion averaging array to average lobing errors so there was a lot of thought applied to them aside from just throwing a bunch of high quality drivers in a box. However, if you have a symmetrical room with sidewalls then they work quite well as you can see in my review and measurements.

http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/rbh-t-30lse

Few speakers in the consumer market can match their dynamic range and certainly NO conventional 3-way cone speaker system can match their dynamics. It would take something along the lines of the new JBL M2 pro speakers to achieve those level of dynamics with a conventional 2 or 3 driver system. In addition, there is just something about a properly designed multi-driver system in terms of vertical soundstage and depth and realism of sound that you typically don't get in a convention 2-3 driver system. It has to be heard to really understand it.

There are always tradeoffs to every design approach so painting a broad brush as I've seen in a few of your posts is usually not the most leveled point of view (ie. paper cones for midranges ALWAYS best, metal domes always harsh, etc). As example, the new Andrew Jones metal midrange is a very stiff cone with it's first breakup mode > 8kHz according to him. Personally I'd prefer a driver to remain as pistonic in the passband as possible and use a quality high order network to reduce energy well before the first break up.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
As for you, ADTG, this is exactly why I stopped using you as a leading indicator of what speakers I'm apt to like. I judge speakers relative to a reference, you judge speakers by whether or not you like listening to them. Two *very* different objectives.
Speakers should try to reproduce what the instruments emit no matter what your hearing is like.

I share my thoughts and experiences just like anyone else on the forum. Everyone must travel his own path.

Regarding your so-called "reference", do all pianos, violins, guitars, drums, cellos, horns, etc., sound exactly the same ? Is there a "reference" to each instrument and all instruments must sound exactly like the one reference?

When The Eagles tour, do all their "Hell Freezes Over" concerts sound exactly the same? Is there a "reference"?

When you go to a live concert, does it sound exactly the same on the 50th row vs. the 1st row of seats? Is the sound from center seat of the 1st row exactly the same as the sound from the 20th seats to the left or right? Do all seats have a "reference" sound?

Is there only one reference in tone, image and soundstage?

And were you present when all the recordings of all your albums were made so that you can judge what the reference is?

With all that said, all the speakers I've own (except maybe the B&W 802D2 & Definitive Technology BP7000SC) measure very linearly and accurately - from +/-1.0dB to +/-2dB. I think the 802D2 is +/-2.9dB and BP7000SC is +/-3.2dB.

That is why I said from the beginning that the OP needs to define his goal or idea of what the perfect system is.

My goals would be something like this:
1. Great on-axis and off-axis measurement.
2. Great sound - super clear, detail, non-fatiguing, great bass, dynamic, image and soundstage.
3. Versatile and functional. For example, cannot be too big or heavy, can be actively bi-amp, can produce awesome tight dynamic punchy bass without additional subwoofers, etc.
4. Doesn't cost more than I am willing to pay. :D
 
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mwmkravchenko

mwmkravchenko

Audioholic
Yes they do. I'm not directly claiming that they introduce a great amount of colouration. I don't really believe that they do if properly chosen. What they do introduce is losses in the system. And what I really failed to say is that you cannot boost or easily contour with a passive system as you can with an active system. Nor is it easy to setup delays. Yes it is possible. But it is not the same thing as dialing in a delay and taking a measurement on an active system.
I think this is another area where we agree. I expected to be buried in the technological scrap heap years ago. I thought active crossovers would completely take over because they have so many inherent advantages over passives. That hasn't happened yet, but the clock is ticking very loudly.[/QUOTE]


There are very entrenched ideas that separates are better. Having done both for many years I believe that active has the edge by a wide margin. But that statement to has qualifying factors.

And active system can be done poorly as can a passive.

And there are stellar examples of both available.

The margin comes into play when you consider what you cannot do with a passive system. You can really contour the sound, correct it. Even adjust in room so that the sound your client is getting is the sound you designed for. That is almost impossible to do with a passive system.

I think the current generation of twenty to thirty years of age will be the ones to finally embrace the active speaker concept.

It is much easier to get into a high end product then a mix and match approach based on the opinions of others.

I ask how many people who are buying an amplifier or a preamplifier really understand the differences between the circuits used to do the actual work?

If I say Bipolar or Fet, Mosfet, LFet.

Does any of that make sense?

Probably not. How about differential, casode, dual cascode. They are all ways to arrange a circuit to generate amplification. They do make some difference in an amplifiers ability to deliver current, or to be inherently lower in distortion before error correction is applied. (feedback)

And if you look around enough there are places that actually give a pretty good explanation of the differences in the circuit types and how they can be advantageous.


I have listened to 30 and 40 thousand dollar amps that don't sound any different than $500 amps as long as neither is being stressed beyond it's safe operating limits.

The general public buys on the appeal of the eyes, the advice of a friend or a reviewer. Or according to available funds.

But rarely on a basis of understanding. It has become very much a consumer of object without understanding industry.

I ask a simple question.

A hypothetical situation of meeting a person from the distant past, say 500 years ago. If you flicked a light switch could you explain to that person how there is light? Could you explain what electricity is? Where it comes from?

Not easy questions for sure. But very basic questions.

If your dropping 10 to 15 thousand dollars on two boxes. You might want to be asking some really basic questions. Both of yourself, and of your prospective vendor.

This is a business that has thrived on pseudo science for a long time. And finally there are companies that are starting to really dish out the goods in ways that are genuine.

Loudspeakers are an example. The general quality level has really evened off in the last twenty years. And even modestly priced systems will get 75 to 80% of what you really need.

If you do your homework, talk to your vendor you will find that there are still good value for your dollar organizations out there.

It's your money. So choose wisely.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I share my thoughts and experiences just like anyone else on the forum. Everyone must travel his own path.
I wasn't trying to imply otherwise, just that I realized after a while that our objectives might be different.


Regarding your so-called "reference", do all pianos, violins, guitars, drums, cellos, horns, etc., sound exactly the same ? Is there a "reference" to each instrument and all instruments must sound exactly like the one reference?
Of course not. The reference recordings I'm speaking of are ones that I make in my own home. I'm lucky enough to have a musician in residence and multiple instruments at my disposal, but you can get important results from recording someone singing, playing a guitar, and many people have a piano. The "performances" don't have to be great music, they can be just scales. A $300 (or less) handheld digital recorder (like from Tascam, who made mine) will make sufficiently good recordings without much effort. When I first got it I recorded my wife on her rock drum kit just by setting the recorder over the edge of a coffee table. As PENG can attest to, the resulting recording was very life-like, and knowing what the original instruments sound like is a very useful reference. I have done the same with an upright piano, a flute, a vibraphone, an upright bass, and a jazz trio.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You're smiling about this, but this can also be seen as the manipulative marketing part of audio that I and others am so unhappy with.

We've been on B&W's case with regard to their trademark Kevlar drivers, but they clearly know a thing or two about marketing. In a store with many different speakers competing for customers, they know that those highly visible amber drivers look different than the usual run of the mill speakers with boring black drivers.

And they certainly sound different too. Compared to something like Bose cube speakers, they stand out. Many customers have been seduced by their "etched" sound in the store, only to find later learn they can't listen without suffering from the dreaded listener's fatigue.

But the problem remains that these people did buy what they thought sounded best at the time they were buying.
Why are you unhappy with the statement "people should buy what sounds best to them"? Does it harm your business? Is there only one brand of speakers that are the ultimate best?

I like speakers that measure great and sound great.

What do you suggest? People should not buy what sounds best to them? :eek:

People should just buy speakers that have the flattest frequency response? Forget about subjective preference?

I prefer my speakers to have great measurements. But if I don't think they sound the best to my preference, why should I keep them?
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I've always been of the mind that speakers should be matched to the ears of the purchaser.
Just as eye glasses are matched to one's eyes and shoes measured to fit our feet.
It's not as radical as it sounds and won't matter that the speakers only match the guy that paid for them. Since most of one's hearing (or their families') doesn't match the frequency peaks and valleys of the speakers they currently own now anyway.
Just for your amusement, Rick, Sigfried Linkwitz agrees with you, at least WRT earbuds. Enjoy:

Reference earphones
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I have been following this thread with interest with a variable degree of attention. Since it is now 60 years since I built my first speaker, I thought I would throw in my few cents worth about the issues raised here.

First of all the disclaimers.

I'm not the least bit interested in reproducing amplified instruments and vocalists. My interest is solo instruments from the lute and guitar to the largest pipe organs and everything in between. I want perfection in the reproduction of the human voice, spoken, and sung, solo and choral. This latter is the toughest assignment of all.

But I'm greedy, I want it all. I want the delicacy of the lute, focused and playing to me in the room, all the way to opera and Wagner, and the largest choral works with huge orchestra, massed choirs, soloists and huge pipe organs. I want this reproduced cleanly at concert hall levels.

I believe you can train your acoustic memory. You can develop a real and genuine reference point for natural instrument and voices. You can also develop good memory for venues you frequent.

So I started experimenting. Driver behavior back then was a particular problem. Nothing was known of Thiel/Small parameters until later.

Two speakers impressed for tonal accuracy. First was the original Quad electrostatic loudspeaker.



The next was in 1959 when this 4" aluminum full range driver appeared. The JW module.




Both these speakers sounded remarkably similar tonally. Both could generate similar spls.

The JW had significant mechanical shortcomings, which I set about rectifying.

With these units Ted Jordan defied and still does current theory and wisdom. The cone is metal, but very thin and light. It is basically foil and far from rigid. Its radiating area decreases with increasing frequency in a controlled and predicatable manor. The essence of this driver is absence of regidity and predetermined flexibility.

The driver has a remarkably flat response. In a TL it gives useful performance into the 40 Hz range and goes all the way to 20 KHz. There are zero sharp unpleasant breakup modes. The units sound quite unlike other full rangers, with a lovely smooth laid back effect creating a very believable sound stage.

Afterlife 2 has been using a pair of these drivers for a couple of years now and loves them. I made a unit available to Fuzz for his center channel and he loves it. Walter has heard it and was astonished at what he heard from that single 4" driver.

I used these drivers for almost 20 years. It took me that long to develop multi driver speakers that could best them. I still have a couple of those drivers in TLs to keep my designs honest.

So, what do I want from a set of speakers? I want tonal accuracy, which translates to a smooth response, and correct balance of all frequency bands, rendered in a believable acoustic space relevant to the program.

Special mention must be made about the bass. I want the bass non resonant. I don't want the speaker to advertize its bass. I want the speaker to be articulate enough to hear what type of sticks typms are being struck with, and I want each drum clearly articulated. I want organ pedal runs clearly articulated. No trace of bloat tolerated.

I have I think, experimented and built speakers with just about every type of bass loading. Here I have come to a definite conclusion. Transmission line and horn loading fit the ideal closer than anything else. Unfortunately these designs are the most difficult. For me horns are not practical in the home, due to the size required for extended bass. For large auditorium designs bass horns are my preferred option. For domestic designs and studios the TL.

So how to I set about a design.

Like organ builders I determine the compass of the speaker. That is to say the frequency range to be covered. The power output required/desired. Both of these related closely to budget.

Physical size will influence the choice of loading as will driver parameters.

The next step is to look for drivers that will work well together with the simplest crossover possible. I'm really not doctrinaire about cone material. I have worked with many, paper, polypropylene, Bextene and other plastics including polystyrene, and of course metal. I have never used Kevlar, that is because a driver using Kevlar has never been selected. I would not rule out using a Kevlar speaker though. I'm not keen on undoped paper cones. I have a slight preference for metal cone drivers, but soft dome tweeters. I don't especially favor ribbons, because I think there are so many good dome tweeters out there, that they are not worth the trouble and expense.

As to the number of drivers, my opinion on that is no more than necessary. I always try and use the minimum number of drivers commensurate with covering the compass of the speaker and the power demands. The ideal speaker would actually be a high powered single full range driver.

My full range driver era profoundly influences my designs and always will. The more drivers you add the more the drivers interfere, and you create troublesome lobing issues. Far more often than not a speaker with a large driver count is a lousy speaker.

A word about line arrays. My experience at Kneller Hall and a large auditorium installation in Canada using huge line arrays of JW modules crossed over active to bass horns at 400 HZ, was strongly positive. It was far superior to any compression loaded horn systems.

In the domestic environment I have not been successful in getting the presentation I desired. My impression is that you need to really get way back from line arrays.

In any multi driver system, the crossover is the very heart of the system, and is mainly responsible for the way a speaker presents itself. With careful design you can use speakers with different cone material. My mains use metal cone drivers, the center polypropylene. Yet there is not change in tonality as singers move across the stage. The front stage is totally seamless.

Now I have a hard time devoting a power amp to drive a tweeter in a domestic system. In addition to expense, tweeters are easily damaged by amp problems, which makes a series cap mandatory anyway. For most designs, with the crossover above 2 KHz insertion loss is acceptable. However you must choose drivers that don't have big dips in response. A passive network can not apply boost, you can only cut. So if you have a response dip, you have to cut either side of it. So if you must work with this situation an active network is best.

For reference systems I believe low crossover points should be active. Using active baffle step compensation confers huge advantages in optimization.

Active solutions also allow the blending and control of multiple signal bands to one driver.

Now modelling gets you so far. Then you get down to measurements and listening.

The DIY constructor has a huge advantage here. You have unlimited time for the always required revisions. I follow the plan of the late John Wright of TDL here. I correct serious errors promptly. Then I listen for extended periods before making other changes. Then I look hard for the trouble and correct it. John Wright made these corrections at 3 to 4 month intervals, and that is what I do. Never dismiss what bugs you. Your senses about this will be pretty much infallible. In the end you get to the point where the system is doing everything you want.

This speaker system was first set up in 2006. I made my last revision about two years ago. I have felt no further need for revisions.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
Why are you unhappy with the statement "people should buy what sounds best to them"? Does it harm your business? Is there only one brand of speakers that are the ultimate best?

I like speakers that measure great and sound great.

What do you suggest? People should not buy what sounds best to them? :eek:

People should just buy speakers that have the flattest frequency response? Forget about subjective preference?

I prefer my speakers to have great measurements. But if I don't think they sound the best to my preference, why should I keep them?
What specific measurements? What is your preference? Have you been able to correlate your preference to a certain set of measurements?
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
If your ears are nonlinear, and everyone's ears are nonlinear, the same sensitivity function will be applied to live instruments and the speakers. Speakers should try to reproduce what the instruments emit no matter what your hearing is like.
I guess this is the choice one has to make. Do I want a speaker that measures closest to the reference, or one that sounds closest to the reference to me.

I mean, if my hearing is weak above 10kHz, any reference above 10kHz sounds weak to me. But that sound is not what the reference is actually producing or how the reference was intended to sound. So should my speaker perpetuate that weakness in my ear? If the speaker is a little "bright" above 10kHz, the thing I actually hear is closer to what the instrument is producing and was designed to produce.

Maybe understanding this issue, and deciding which I want, will make selecting my speakers a bit easier.
More accurate or Sounds better?

Am I understanding this debate correctly?

Edit: I know there are no instruments, (short of a dog whistle), above 10kHz. It's just an example.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
So if a speaker sounds bad to your ears but measures +-1 then you pick the one that measures better? Thats like buying shoes that are not comfortable because the foot computer at the footlocker says they will fit you better than the comfortable ones...

SO why demo anything? Why not just pick the best measuring speaker and everyone buy that because it must sound the best... I agree with looking at the charts to make sure a speaker isnt a terrible mess, but you need to listen to them, I would actually want to listen to the terrible mess speakers too, just in case..
 
mwmkravchenko

mwmkravchenko

Audioholic
I guess this is the choice one has to make. Do I want a speaker that measures closest to the reference, or one that sounds closest to the reference to me.

I mean, if my hearing is weak above 10kHz, any reference above 10kHz sounds weak to me. But that sound is not what the reference is actually producing or how the reference was intended to sound. So should my speaker perpetuate that weakness in my ear? If the speaker is a little "bright" above 10kHz, the thing I actually hear is closer to what the instrument is producing and was designed to produce.

Maybe understanding this issue, and deciding which I want, will make selecting my speakers a bit easier.
More accurate or Sounds better?

Am I understanding this debate correctly?

Edit: I know there are no instruments, (short of a dog whistle), above 10kHz. It's just an example.
Possibly you understand this.

If a speaker measures well it will sound good. That has always been true.

But the idea that a speaker will sound best at a dead flat line is not quite right. The best, most natural sounding speakers I have listened to are a little bit tilted from about 5000 hertz on up. The tilt is slight, about 1.5 to 2 db.

The other point to remember is that most speaker measurements are taken straight on in front of the box at one meter.

Nobody listens there.

Most people are 2.5 to 3 meters on average away, with a tilt towards the listening position. This basically creates a top end roll off in the first place.

And there is direct musical energy up to about 12 000 hertz. But not to much. Overtones of harmonics are present way up in dog and bat territory but are much quieter.

So if your hearing is still good up to 10 000 hertz you are actually doing ok.

The comment about making a recording is very insightful.

You can record anything that you want. Your dog barking, people talking, birds chirping, even your car starting. What ever sounds you are familiar with and they will tell you instantly if you are listening to a hi fidelity loudspeaker or not.

Heck even our cell phones with a cheap mic from Parts Express are decently good at making recordings.

If you want a real stereo recording the Tascam digital recorder or their cousins are cheap enough to be in anybody kit if they are planning on spending the cost of a decent used car on a set of speakers.

This simple bit of detective work and common sense will very quickly separate the good from the bad.
 

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