How Do You Buy High-End Speakers?

[walter duque]

Wise guy...............

No, really, the Linkwitz Orion will be "the last speaker I will ever own"........because I will never be able to sell them. Ever.

They will sell sooner or later, just takes the right buyer to come along. I had my Tannoy Jaguars on craigslist for $1500.00 for almost 4 months and no bite. One night after a few beers I changed the asking price to $2250.00 and a few days later they where sold for $1750.00. I think your asking price of 5K is too low.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

They will sell sooner or later, just takes the right buyer to come along. I had my Tannoy Jaguars on craigslist for $1500.00 for almost 4 months and no bite. One night after a few beers I changed the asking price to $2250.00 and a few days later they where sold for $1750.00. I think your asking price of 5K is too low.

Interesting. So drink a few bears and increase the price by 50%, huh? Okay. Will try that.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I just don't understand the focus on cheapness or ROI on a pure luxury. If I got zero return after 10 years of ownership for my Salon2-DD18+ system I wouldn't care. I'll have 10 years of amazement and satisfaction few will ever experience with an audio system, but the financial story won't be very pretty. We only live once, and not for very long.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just don't understand the focus on cheapness or ROI on a pure luxury. If I got zero return after 10 years of ownership for my Salon2-DD18+ system I wouldn't care. I'll have 10 years of amazement and satisfaction few will ever experience with an audio system, but the financial story won't be very pretty. We only live once, and not for very long.

I think it's just a matter of priority. Some people just don't want to spend as much $$ on speakers, but they may spend more $$ on cars, boats, or other hobbies.

 

[ImcLoud]

I just don't understand the focus on cheapness or ROI on a pure luxury. If I got zero return after 10 years of ownership for my Salon2-DD18+ system I wouldn't care. I'll have 10 years of amazement and satisfaction few will ever experience with an audio system, but the financial story won't be very pretty. We only live once, and not for very long.

Its different for everyone... Since things cost money its only natural {for me anyway} to think of it from any angle, and cost of ownership is the second most important financial aspect to a purchase second only to purchase price... Plus home audio is a weird hobby, you have to be a lifetime musician/audio engineer/digital remaster'er to really pick up on some of the sound differences from $3000 systems and $9000 systems....

 

[c2k]

Its different for everyone... Since things cost money its only natural {for me anyway} to think of it from any angle, and cost of ownership is the second most important financial aspect to a purchase second only to purchase price... Plus home audio is a weird hobby, you have to be a lifetime musician/audio engineer/digital remaster'er to really pick up on some of the sound differences from $3000 systems and $9000 systems....

Or it can be just a placebo! Sad to day it

 

[Irvrobinson]

home audio is a weird hobby, you have to be a lifetime musician/audio engineer/digital remaster'er to really pick up on some of the sound differences from $3000 systems and $9000 systems....

That hasn't been my experience with my current system. Even people with dedicated audio systems are surprised and mesmerized. I did have a local high end audio sales guy, the one who sold me the sub, tell me my system sounded a little bright, but I took him downstairs and hit a couple of cymbals from the recording he just heard. His look was priceless. The best speakers are still different enough for even posers to hear the difference.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How did I buy high-end speakers ?

1. I read about the Linkwitz Orion. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new.
2. I read about the Revel Salon2. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new.
3. I read about the KEF 201/2. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new. All three pairs of them.
4. I read about the B&W 802D2. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new.

And then I listed all of them for sale.

 

[cpp]

Wise guy...............

No, really, the Linkwitz Orion will be "the last speaker I will ever own"........because I will never be able to sell them. Ever.

I'll give ya $500.00 and you pay shipping

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'll give ya $500.00 and you pay shipping

Sorry. Walter convinced me to drink some beers and jack up the price 50%. So I did just that.

 

[cpp]

How did I buy high-end speakers ?

1. I read about the Linkwitz Orion. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new.
2. I read about the Revel Salon2. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new.
3. I read about the KEF 201/2. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new. All three pairs of them.
4. I read about the B&W 802D2. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new.

And then I listed all of them for sale.

Home audio is like buying and selling a new car.,. It depreciates as soon as you leave the store and you rarely have a win-win on the sell. So, you just suck it up and move on to your next purchase and set back enjoy the sound and hope you made the right decision .

 

[ImcLoud]

I'll give ya $500.00 and you pay shipping

See we are getting somewhere, $790 I pay shipping... throw in a pair of speaker cables, any pair...

That hasn't been my experience with my current system. Even people with dedicated audio systems are surprised and mesmerized. I did have a local high end audio sales guy, the one who sold me the sub, tell me my system sounded a little bright, but I took him downstairs and hit a couple of cymbals from the recording he just heard. His look was priceless. The best speakers are still different enough for even posers to hear the difference.

I am sure your system sounds fantastic, I have no doubt about that.... We entertain a lot and we have a couple hi fi shoppes in the area, and there is some money here so a lot of our friends have really nice systems, granted 99% of them walk in the shop and buy what the salesman shows them, not knowing what they are listening to, but I get the same thing, people can't believe the sound, which is an awesome feeling but then what tops that feeling is telling them the entire thing cost me $2500 when they spent double that on one of their two amps...
My wifes friends and her husband came over, he was excited to come over because he is also an "audiophile" and she has been here and seen my systems so he was anxious to talk speakers with me... The firs thing he said to me was "are them Boston acoustics?" pointing to my wharfedale towers, I was like "close, they are wharfedale, he never heard of them because they aren't very popular here, so we moved on, while we were waiting for dinner I shut off the whole house system, brenda {his wife} wanted to hear the juke box so I turned that on and showed them how it worked, then I asked him what kind of music he liked he said "classic rock", I am like "PERFECT", so I turned the ipad on and let bruce and clarence play their harts out, he sat in the sweet spot and was AMAZED, it was funny to watch because I could tell he never heard a sound stage that blended to the center that well, coupled with the strong low end that room has... So fast forward a bit he tells me he has a Marantz m-cr650 {I think thats what it is, its the cd player/amp/music server from marantz, they are newish} and a pair of def tech 8080's.. So rite away I know the def tech 8080's they are the tall skinny towers, and with no subs they are lost for classic rock and them marantz units are around 80watts total...
Now we are talking over dinner, my system is playing in the background, he kept saying "I can not belive it sounds that clean with an ipad and itunes?!?!?!?!!" and I explained to him a lot of guys talk on the internet and then people think its law, like "cd's are much better than mp3's" they may have better sq, but I can not hear it, and if it is its not enough to make me ignore how convenient the ipod is... So that was lesson one, then he said "I just don't have the money to buy a system like that", so I said "what do you think that cost?" he says, "I don't know, $10K", I laughed and said "nope, around $2500" he couldn't believe it, it spent $3000 just on his def techs and his entire 2 ch. rig cost him upwards of $4000 with the stand, cables, ect!!!

I showed him the other systems in the house after dinner and he could not get over that none of them cost as much as his but he was embarrassed to say they all out did his system...

So he asks me if I could put something together for him, his friend would buy his system for almost what he paid, so I explained he could keep the marantz and he said it wasn't loud enough.. Fast forward again about a week and he calls my cell phone. he said he could not even listen to his system now and was going to buy a set of theil 1.7's and a $400w amp of some sort NAD 300w I-amp from crutchfield, lol I told him don't do anything yet, invite us over for dinner and I will take a listen which we did the next weekend, and he was correct, the system he built was horrid, I didn't tell him that but I was thinking it, it was even ugly to look at {I think I have a post about this with pictures around here somehwhere}...

So he ends up keeping his marantz unit {it was a nice unit} buying a pair of ULS15's and a pair of ascend towers {all black no tweeter upgrade, Dave said if he didn't like the stock tweeters he could upgrade for free}, he also bought a used XPA3 from ebay to power the mains {he got it for $300 so why not have the extra channel}.. The system now ROCKS, he was the second person I talked into getting uls15's with sierra towers, they are a match made in heaven, and that room sounds great, he did some treatments andstuff now, but he creeps around the ascend forums and is now a reall "audiophile" but he had to be cheap to get there, lol...

That long post is for you Irv, I know how you love them... But I like the feeling I get knowing I didn't spend $15K on a system and it sounds so good to me... Now there are speakers I would like that are expensive, case and point I still have not bought my own sierra towers and uls15's, BUT I may some day, when I get sick of one of my 2 ch rigs, I may go there, or maybe I will go with philharmonitors and sb2000's, who knows..

 

[walter duque]

Its different for everyone... Since things cost money its only natural {for me anyway} to think of it from any angle, and cost of ownership is the second most important financial aspect to a purchase second only to purchase price... Plus home audio is a weird hobby, you have to be a lifetime musician/audio engineer/digital remaster'er to really pick up on some of the sound differences from $3000 systems and $9000 systems....

I think you would hear a difference, because if you let me spend 9k I can put together a system that retails between 20k-30k.

 

[walter duque]

Interesting. So drink a few bears and increase the price by 50%, huh? Okay. Will try that.

You must have had a drink or two by now, I see you changed the asking price. Now if somebody does offer you 5k, the buyer is gonna walk away feeling like a thief and ever body is happy. They will sell sooner or later. I can't even imagine how good they sound. BTW they look awesome. Nothing like a hand crafted speaker made in the USA.

 

[ImcLoud]

I think you would hear a difference, because if you let me spend 9k I can put together a system that retails between 20k-30k.

I am sure, since it seems like the high dollar stuff has a lot of wiggle room rite at the showroom alone, I am good friends with a couple shop owners but the stuff that is in there doesn't really interest me, and most of the time a closeout or demo will be available online for less than they paid...
Now I have listened to some really expensive systems, I have heard the focal utopias, I have heard a few sets of speakers that cost twice what my duramax powered super cab cost me and the thing is when comparing what I heard to what I have in my parlor for a few thousand dollars, I couldn't justify spending $10K on them systems never mind $100K+ just on the speakers...
Heres another thing, I am happy with my budget systems, sure I can buy something insane, but rite now I can box what I have up and start all over, say replace my evos with ascends and hsu subs, my csb1s with phils and sb2000's, my tektons with phil 3's, ect... I could throw the speakers I own away and still only spend $7000 replacing them in 3 systems, lol... Not a big deal... I like being able to swap and play around with the systems, I don't take it too serious, other wise I would put curtains over the glass, I would put rugs down, treat the corners, treat the walls, ect, but thats not what I am looking for...

Now don't get me wrong I am not saying that I don't like the sound and looks of say the sonus Aida's over my evo-2's lol, but I don't like them 120 times more, I got to listen to some high end sonus towers in Tennessee not that long ago, powered by a pair of levinson mono blocks {of course}, with a tube preamp {I forget the number maybe a c2300} and matching cd player, they were awesome, the look, the sound, the power, I love subs and for some reason even the bass was great to me... But that system was around $150K, so I don't think I could imagine the sound and exotic veneer it would take for me to spend that kind of money since I could buy a simple $3000 system and a G series, lol... Now I know that is out of reach for a lot of people, and $10K is in reach for a lot more, but that is my point, at $10K it is even less impressive.. The salk scapes would be my pic for around 10K and I can't talk myself into that when I hear the difference... I am all about music, and I like the entire package, I wanta good looking speaker, I want it to sound good, I want it to be worth almost what I paid when I find the next set I want...

 

[Irvrobinson]

How did I buy high-end speakers ?

1. I read about the Linkwitz Orion. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new.
2. I read about the Revel Salon2. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new.
3. I read about the KEF 201/2. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new. All three pairs of them.
4. I read about the B&W 802D2. I auditioned them. I ordered them brand new.

And then I listed all of them for sale.

And the moral of this story is?

 

[Irvrobinson]

That long post is for you Irv, I know how you love them... But I like the feeling I get knowing I didn't spend $15K on a system and it sounds so good to me...

I think that sums it up.

Edit - I was thinking, we've probably spent about the same amount on audio, plus or minus 20%. You just sprinkled it around the house, and I spent it all on one system.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you were in the market for a pair of speakers in the $10k-15k/pair range, what would be your process to choose which ones? I don't want this thread to debate this one is better than that one, or this one for $1k is as good.

Most people agree speakers sound different in different rooms. So listening to various brands in various rooms may not be the final word, (even if you can find a person/dealer in your area with the speakers you want to hear).

Many speakers in this range are only built after you order. Their return policies may range from none to 4 weeks, and their delivery times will vary. So even if you could order 2 or more brands to audition in your home, it would be difficult to coordinate delivery. Plus you'd have to pay for all of them at the same time. Plus you'd need space and equipment in your living room to set up an accurate blind listening audition.

So you can't accurately compare speakers in your home before you buy, and in many cases can't hear the speakers anywhere before you buy. (In fact, it's not even possible to hear most $2-3k speakers around here.) So how would you choose?

I'm so glad I don't have to go through this. There are few dealers now, and their inventory is low.

Like as not the owner will be an audiophool and the speakers will be connected to tube amp of dubious pedigree. Often times the amp will be totally unsuitable to drive the speakers you want to listen to.

Then as you point out, speakers sound different in different positions in the same room, never mind different rooms.

Speakers are in so many ways like pipe organs, and do need voicing to the room and position.

So much, in fact almost all of it, in my view has to do with this half space full space transition.

This occurs right in the range where instruments and the human voice have their signature presentation.

Since I know of no commercial speakers where this crucial aspect of performance can be adjusted to room and position, an awful lot gets left to luck.

I really can not offer you much useful advice, only offer you my sympathy.

It is an area that needs improvement. The only solution, I can see for the public, is active speakers with auto adjustment techniques. I set mine with manual measurement techniques and a lot of listening over prolonged periods before looking at and changing the speaker.

I can tell you one thing price is absolutely no guarantee to high quality performance. In fact I would say on a percentage basis the high priced exotics have a higher percentage of duds than the mid priced offerings.

I went to the gala opening night of the Minnesota Orchestra season on Friday night.

In the program there was an advertisement for a dealer I have not been aware of previously.

I will pay him a visit as soon as I get a chance. This dealer seems all to typical of the current breed. I doubt I will find much enlightenment, just deluded nonsense.

This is a pity, as the average music listener is denied a serviceable and affordable system and goes without only able to play his favorite music in the car.

 

[mwmkravchenko]

I'll throw in my two cents.

I'm old enough that the only way you could get to know about speakers and audio in general was to read about it. Every month there were latest and greatest in Audio magazine, stereophile, the absolute sound. You know the magazines.

Everything I lusted after was in the multiple kilo buck ranges.

There were places to listen to some of this stuff. I grew up in Manitoba Canada. There is basically one big city there. It's called Winipeg and it serves as a hub for a large area. So there was some pretty interesting stuff available.

I started going into the big city and began listening. Both to stereos and to live unamplified music. I learned a thing or two. Many speakers are not that accurate. And the ones that are are similar in design.

I went off and became a decently good musician who figured out early enough that there is no money in it and went off earning a living else where. Part of that earning a living went into designing and building loudspeaker enclosures and crossovers. So I had to learn a few things. No internet back then. At least not like we have now. It was all book learning and oscilloscopes and function generators and chart recorders. The old lab stuff.

I have and always will love music. I played french horn and have played almost every brass instrument , played at the violin and the piano as well. ( played at is a fancy term for tried them out long enough to know that I need more practice at them to be decently good )

I know what instruments sound like. I have the ability to remember music and pitch as if a note is playing in my head. I get told fairly recently that it is called perfect pitch. Lovely.

So from about 1997 I start designing loudspeakers, and traducers. Woofers to begin with. I learned some interesting things there as well. From about 2000 on I have been consulting for a few companies. Made some interesting stuff.

So the point.

There are tried a true complements of drivers that work.

MTM 6.5 is a good example. They can be quite lively and lifelike if done correctly.

A three way woofer. mid. tweeter. Are actually a little harder to pull off. There are areas in the response of the drivers where there is a hole. I shows up standing and sitting. And from side to side.

What I listen for when I'm working on a system or just trying out someones speakers is a sit down to standing test. How much does the timber of the music change?

Some systems have a night and day difference. Some trade horizontal for vertical control. It matters when you are sitting. The greater the horizontal spread that the tighter the vertical control the more you are immersed in the sound environment your recording engineer intended. A controlled dispersion speaker can more effectively remove your room and it's effects.

Then a walk around the speakers. How far can you go away from one speaker towards the other before you loose one of them? This is a real life test of the speakers horizontal dispersion characteristics.

I have found that a stack of three or four drivers and then a tweeter is a no go no matter what crossover voodoo has been done. They never quite sound right.

Same goes for a whole bunch of little midranges masquerading as woofers.

There are minimal amounts of air you have to move to produce a given sound pressure level.

So decide from the get go how loud you want to listen.

Decide your bandwidth. Is it DC to light or do you have distinct musical tastes? RocknRoll? Blues, Classical, Heavy Metal? They all have some areas where they tax a system.

No matter what music you listen to the real smack and bang is in the octave from 64 hertz to 128 hertz. The chest thump is in there, the growl and grunt of a gutar, the kick drum. They are all within this range. You need at least two long throw 8's to get you that at a decent sound pressure level.

If you are going with a sub, then cross it over around 130 and use a system with two 6.5" drivers. Yes I recommend a higher crossover for the simple reason that it will clean up your midrange and leave the little driver to do what they do best.

For tweeters. There are all kinds. Soft domes, hard domes, planars, ribbons. They all have their good points and bad points. For what it's worth here is my 30 plus years worth of listening.

In order of what I find most musical. Best is at the top.


Planar they are not all equal
soft dome some are better than others.
ribbon some are pretty good, but they all require a midrange to play awfully high up until they can take over.
metal dome don’t like them they tend to have a very distinct sound that I find irritating.

For midwoofers:

Paper
Poly Polypropylene
Metal Cone
Carbon Fiber
Kevlar

Simple rules of thumb. If it is absolutely stiff it will ring like a bell at some frequency. No matter what you read that is always the case and will ever be. You canna change the laws of physics.

Paper is not just paper and has not been for many years. The best cones are made of paper.

Kevlar is a weird one. It literally screams. and no matter what you do in the crossover it is still there.

If a speaker catches your attention immediately. Like grabs you by the collar and says hey listen to me! Run. It will drive you nuts in extended listening.

If a speaker sounds kind of laid back. Give it a chance. And there are some things to listen for. Inner detail of music. Can you hear things you have not heard before? Are they natural sounding or artificial sounding? Play some acoustic guitar. How much of the house sound do you hear, the room in which they recorded it in, or the reverb they added in?

Those are the things that set apart the good the bad and the plain old ugly.

So can you tell these things by looking at a graph?

Yes with a little training.

If the graph is basically a straight line. Look somewhere else. There is no speaker that has a frequency response that can be characterized as a straight line.

Do you see wiggles a squiggles? Good they are honest. It takes a peak or dip of at least 3 decibels over a quarter octave to be noticeable. An octave is a halving or a doubling of frequency. So 64 to 128 is an octave, 256 hertz to 512 hertz is an octave and so on. Most reputable graphs have the frequency scale on the bottom going left and right. Lower is on the right, higher is on the left. And sound pressure level vertically. You can figure out the vertical divisions by looking at the marker numbers. Generally they are in 5 decibel increments.

Our ears are most sensitive between 1000 and 4000 hertz in general terms. This range is also where all the cues to where something is in 3 dimensions are. So that is a critical region for your eyes to look over a speaker response graph.

Above 4000 hertz up to about 14 000 hertz is the limit to what most instrument produce with any degree of power. And most people don't really hear much above that in the first place.
On the low end what you need depends on what you listen to and how loud you want to listen to it. Rock is actually fairly easy on your system. Jazz and Blues as well. Classical can be hard on your system depending on what you like to listen to.
Here is some interesting equivalents. It takes 3 8 inch drivers equal a 12 inch driver. Almost 3 12 inch drivers equal a 15. And 3.5 twelve in drivers equal an 18 inch driver. Approximations yes. But close. And in a normal sized living room a subwoofer of under a 12 capacity is a waste of your money. A decent 15 usually has the swept volume of a higher quality 12 inch driver. And to make matters worse. If you happen upon a sale of little 10’s or twelves, more drivers equals lower distortion in the low end particularly.

There is more that can be said. If you think this is of any value ask questions on what is not making sense or on what I may have left out.
I purposely am not recommending any brand. Yes a speaker designer can be objective. And yes I think other people know how to make good sounding speakers. I just finished a weeks work with a gentleman who really knows his stuff Craig Devin of Avantone. They have an awesome system coming out called the Abbey.
One last plug. Look for active. An active design means a number of things. There is a matching of design characteristics that you as a consumer can never hope to achieve. The crossover work can be fear inspiring in it’s complexity and gobsmacking in it’s final results. And the sound they can reproduce is leaps and bounds better than what you can pull off with a mix and match component system. The reason is simple. The designer put in enough effort to do it right the first time.

 

[herbu]

Guys, thanks so much for the thoughtful advice and all the time you took to give me your experiences and knowledge! It means a lot.

First, there's nothing magic about the $10-15k range. It's just the max I would be willing to spend. The same process questions apply to $2-4k speakers. (I'm in the Raleigh, NC area.) In fact, after reviewing & comparing the specs of my Aperion Grands, I'm not at all sure they are worth replacing.

My takeaway from all the advice is:
1) I need to become more knowledgable about the various speaker brands, and categorize them into similar designs.
2) I need a serious effort to find and hear as many different brands/designs as possible.

If, (that's a big "if"), I can narrow my preference to a particular design, then maybe I can narrow those choices to a particular speaker.
The more the choices narrow, the more difficult it may be to compare them.
Picking speakers better than the Aperions has to be more a labor of love than simply "upgrading".
The easiest way might be to just find the best deal among the top speakers, buy them, then worry about "upgrading" only if I happen to hear something I like better.

Again, thanks for all the help. You guys are amazing.