First System: I wanna make it a good one!

[titzlaroo]

I've still got some basic questions about speaker/amp relationships and some brand/model recommendations.

I've read through all the Loudspeaker and Power Ratings: What's the Deal? articles, multiple forum posts, and plenty more. Any help I can get in clearing things up would be greatly appreciated.

Here's what I'm looking at:

- Mainly for music, will be used for movies and ps3, also
- 2.1 system
- Room is just under 20x20
- Have $1500-$2000 to spend

The recommendations on this site look pretty good. I'm thinking either the Klipsch RB 51's/ or Axiom M3's.

I understand Marantz is great for music. I'm considering the NR1601. The equally priced Yamaha RX-A700 looks tempting, though.

Here's my technical questions:

1. The speakers each have different power handling specs and the receivers have different output wattage. Will either receiver be able to provide enough power to either of the speakers mentioned to adequately produce some great sound? (my specific concern is the 75 watt RMS on the Kilpsch and the 50w/ch on the Marantz)

2. Is this setup adequate for the size room I have? I don't need to bring the walls down, but often like a bit of volume.

3. Would I be better off with 2 floorstanding speakers rather than a 2.1 setup?

Thanks!

 

[KEW]

For your receiver, have you considered one of these?
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARSR5004/Marantz/SR5004-Dolby-TrueHD-PLIIz/dts-HD-MA-AV-Receiver/1.html#!specifications

It is refurbished by the factory and has a one year warranty and Accesssories4less will take care of you if you have any issues within the first 30 days.

The benefits of this are:
1) 90 watts per channel (which will assuredly be plenty for any normal 2.1 system)
2) Audyssey MultEQ
3) pre-amp outputs should you ever decide to upgrade to a separate amplifier (though it sounds like this is not likely for you).

Also, they have the NR1501 refurbbed for $300. I'm not sure the differences between it and the NR1601 would be of consequence to you. I have to say I like the look of the low profile units.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARNR1501/Marantz/NR1501-Slimline-Dolby-TrueHD/dts-HD-Master-Audio-AV-Receiver/1.html

 

[sholling]

Start by sizing a subwoofer to the room. That will tell you how much money you have left over for speakers. Next choose the speakers based on your personal taste. Speakers are very subjective. But also keep in mind that while a bright speaker like Klipsch can sound really good when you first start listening, some people find the bright sound fatiguing after a while. That's why you'll want to plan an extended listening test at real world (for you) volumes.

Only after you choose your speakers will you want to select a receiver. The primary consideration is will it drive the speakers that you chose, and does it have the features that you want.

In a room that size you'll probably be looking at $600-800 for a subwoofer but I'd draw up a room diagram and then contact SVSound, Hsu Research, and Epik and have them size it.

That should leave you about $600-800 for speakers. Three good options for fronts are 1) OneCall has the long discontinued Boston Acoustics VR3 towers bundled with the matched VR3 center for $810 shipped. The VR3s are rear ported and need some space. 2) Ascend Sierra-1 bookshelves for $700-850/pr. 3) Usher S-520 bookshelves ($400/pr) however the Ushers do require a subwoofer and the matched S-525 ($370) center requires a 4ohm friendly receiver. I've owned all of the above (except the S-525) and all are excellent for the money.

If you're in the US you can often find Onkyo's TX-SR608 brand new for around $400 shipped. It's a good little receiver but isn't 4ohm friendly. If you don't need 3D compatibility then last year's 4ohm friendly TX-SR707 can bought (factory refurb) for $400 or the 3D capable TX-NR708 (factory refurbished) for $520. To me the 70x series are worth the extra money. FWIW I've bought factory refurbished receivers from them twice with zero issues.

 

[titzlaroo]

Thanks for the recommendations. Accessorries4less offers some great warranties at an affordable price.

I'm gathering from your the previous receiver recommendations that I'm gonna need a little more power in a receiver to produce the sound I'm looking for in the size room I've got.

Bookshelves and a nice sub should still suffice, right?

 

[sholling]

Thanks for the recommendations. Accessorries4less offers some great warranties at an affordable price.

I'm gathering from your the previous receiver recommendations that I'm gonna need a little more power in a receiver to produce the sound I'm looking for in the size room I've got.

Bookshelves and a nice sub should still suffice, right?

Just as a rule of thumb budgeting 25-30% of your total budget on a receiver is about right. The rest needs to go on speakers and the sub.

Subwoofers need to move enough air to fit a room. Assuming a 20x20x8' room (8' ceiling being the "norm") is 3200cufu. That puts you into $600-700 subwoofers. That's assuming that there are no spaces or rooms open to your 20x20' room. If there are then you have to count their cubic footage. That's where room size really comes into play.

With speakers you're more concerned with distance from the seating position and the sensitivity of the speakers. Speakers with a sensitivity rating of 92 or 93db at 1w at 1m (like the RB-51, M3, or VR3s) are super easy to drive and any decent receiver should be able to fill that room. But it's nice to have preouts so that you can add an external amp later. That's because as you add speakers to grow to a 5.1 system the power ratings become less and less realistic and the actual output of a 90wpc receiver may drop to 50-60w. The higher up a manufacturer's food chain that you go the more likely the power ratings are semi-realistic.

Actually I missed the part about what speakers you were looking at. What it comes down to is what you like. What speakers sound best to you. We all have different tastes. You may love Klipsch, many do. I find them fatiguing fairly quickly. All that matters is what you like.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How high is the ceiling? 10ft?

20 x 20 x 10 = 4,000 cubic ft, which is pretty good.

Yeah, I think you need > 100 WPC. Just get it out of your "system" and get an AVR with 5.1/7.1 pre-outs (you can get refurbished for $300) + an external amp (like 200WPC Emotiva XPA-5) + a pair of Infinity P362 towers ($400) or the $600/pr Magnepan MMG dipole speakers (that require 3ft from the walls, but you have plenty of room) + an Epik Subwoofer.

Now you are set.

So let's recap:

1) AVR w/ pre-outs
2) Ext Amp
3) Tower speakers pr
4) Subwoofer

 

[KEW]

Yeah, I think you need > 100 WPC. Just get it out of your "system" and get an AVR with 5.1/7.1 pre-outs (you can get refurbished for $300) + an external amp (like 200WPC Emotiva XPA-5) + a pair of Infinity P362 towers ($400) or the $600/pr Magnepan MMG dipole speakers (that require 3ft from the walls, but you have plenty of room) + an Epik Subwoofer.

I'm afraid I don't get it! Is this a joke? Are you serious?
Why would he buy a $300 AVR and an $800 five channel amplifier just to power two speakers?

If he got the Infinity P362 at 93dB sensitivity, an 50 watt (or better) 5 or 7 channel AVR would have plenty of power.

Magnepans have a reputation for being power hungry and may be a different story. But even so, a pair of UPA-1's would make much more sense than an XPA-5.

But I'd much rather see $1200 going to speakers and $400 to receiver than the opposite.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But I'd much rather see $1200 going to speakers and $400 to receiver than the opposite.

Ah, but the $400 Infinity P362 may sound just as good as some speakers that cost $1,200!

And the $600 Magnepan MMG may sound just as good as some speakers that cost $1,800!

Okay, okay, okay.

Epik Legend for $500:
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html

Denon AVR-3310 for $600:
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR3310CI-7-1-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B002AKKFQ2/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1287513507&sr=8-3

$900 budget for either Magnepan MMG ($600) or Infinity P362 ($400).

I'm not budging on this one. No way.

 

[GranteedEV]

yikes, 20x20x10...

sounds like standing waves waiting to happen.

Magnepans have a reputation for being power hungry and may be a different story. But even so, a pair of UPA-1's would make much more sense than an XPA-5.

The MMGs seem a gateway drug... you hear one and it sounds great. So you hook it up to your receiver which can probably deal with a flat 4 ohm load decently enough and there's no extreme dips. You turn it on and it sounds nice enough. You turn it up and all of sudden...their lack of sensitivity (at 86/2.83v/m)hits you and you decide to get an amp for them. Then we get crazy people on the emotiva boards pumping 1000wpc into their 1.7s with their XPA-1s granted they probably don't actually run them at those volumes but I swear planars have to account for 80+% of emotiva's XPA-1 sales

Anyways my recommendation for a 2.1 system, with a budget of 1500-2000 :

the marantz SR5004 refurb, just like KEW suggested. If 3D is an factor, I'd be a bit patient and wait for the 5005s to pop up on the refurbs site, it shouldn't take that long. Otherwise the 04 is a very fine unit.

And then I recommend these speakers and sub plus a second matching sub to tame the bass in your unfortunately square room and increase output at the same time. Uh oh did I just recommend a 5.2 system for a guy asking for a 2.1 system, and stay under budget? Sorry, but it's just too good a deal to pass up. Anyways


A pair of these

and a pair of these

Damn it, now I overshot your budget.

Hmm

These x 2 for the subs and go with some bookshelves

That should be just right, at ~1300 for two speakers and two subs to pair them with, and ~400 for the receiver.

 

[titzlaroo]

I really appreciate the time you guys are taking to help me with my decision. I have some more info. as well as a question to help me clear up some things in my head.

The dimensions of my room were a guestimate (kind of). I actually have one wall angled, and one wall is half open to another room (no door). It does have the same approximate volume of a 20x20x10 room, though.

I've been looking over the recommendations for speakers, and want to make sure I've got some facts straight:

The Klipsch RB-51s have a sensativity of 92dB @ 2.83V / 1m and the recently recommended Usher S-520s are 86 dB @ 1 watt / 1m . I realize they may have used a different way of measuring, but generally speaking does the higher db indicate a more efficient speaker? How important is it to take into account at this price range with the receivers I've been recommended (marantz SR5004 for instance)?

Thanks again.

 

[Seth=L]

I wouldn't recommend the Ushers for home theater for their lack of sensitivity (they need to take a course on how to be courteous to others).

Klipsch fit the profile of home theater much better which leaves your receiver options more open. The Klipsch have a 6 dB advantage on the Ushers which means they need 1/4 of the power necessary to produce the same SPL (on average) in comparison to the Ushers. Having used low efficiency speakers in the past, such as NHT, for home theater I can personally say you'd be cutting yourself short on dynamic capability.

The Ushers are great speakers, don't get me wrong. Unfortunately they are inefficient in order to compensate for being full range and small simultaneously. The mid-woofer also has a low tolerance for heavy excersion. Should you choose to go with the Ushers it's imperative you have a subwoofer and that you set the Ushers to "small" in the receiver.

 

[sholling]

The Klipsch RB-51s have a sensativity of 92dB @ 2.83V / 1m and the recently recommended Usher S-520s are 86 dB @ 1 watt / 1m . I realize they may have used a different way of measuring, but generally speaking does the higher db indicate a more efficient speaker? How important is it to take into account at this price range with the receivers I've been recommended (marantz SR5004 for instance)?

The Klipsch will play twice as loud for a given amount of power. Unfortunately they sound like Klipsch. Some people love the Klipsch sound, some people hate the Klipsch sound, and some think they like them only to discover that they find the Klipsch sound fatiguing and stop listening to their system as much as they might have liked. Only you will know which group you fall into, but my advice is to audition them at fairly high volume for at least 30-45 minutes before committing.

The Ushers are more of a music speaker. They work for movies but they will not get as loud. Music was your primary consideration which is why I recommended them. They got plenty loud for me sitting 15 feet away but that's about their limit. No they aren't perfect, but as long as they are backed by a subwoofer they are a standout for music in their price class.

For a room that big it might be a good idea to go with a larger speaker. Consider the Boston Acoustic VR3 bundle (93db @ 1watt /1m) for $810 shipped. I've owned a set and before they were discontinued in favor of a newer model they sold for $1250/pr plus another $400ish for the center. However they do need some room. These are large floorstanding towers and ideally should have 18-24" behind them and need to be at least 2-3 feet from the nearest side wall. Of course this is true of any rear ported speaker including the Klipsch and Axiom. They're a bit outside of your budget but they will fill the heck out of your room. The VR3s also play comfortably down to 40hz. That means you won't need a subwoofer right off the bat for most music genres. You'll still want one for movies and to help out the center - again for movies. You can get the VR3s without the center for $612 and save some $200 but being that they are discontinued finding a matched center in the future may not be that easy.

That leads us to what will be a real budget buster - the subwoofer(s). What you've described are two connected 4000+ cubic foot rooms with no doors in between. That's 8000cuft a sub(s) will have to fill. I'm in the same boat and it will take either one massive subwoofer or two medium subs to fill it.

I'm not a Marantz expert but 90w should be enough to drive any of these, however as long as you have preouts you can always add an external amp later should you desire one.

 

[Seth=L]

I'd probably get the VR3 as well, that's a really good price and I think they have a very balanced sound, if a tad bright (not as bright as Klipsch).