Don't let Apple Corp dictate whats in a receiver

[alphaiii]

I was looking for an industry-wide downward trend in amp section quality. A dip in quality from a single manufacturer for a couple of years isn't really anything to get worried about. The indication is that, no, amps have not gotten worse over the years at a given price point.

So it's really much ado about nothing.

I don't necessarily see it the same way... No, it hasn't happened industry wide... but with the trend of feature quantity over sound quality by the general population these days... it doesn't mean it won't happen...

I'd consider us audio folk fortunate that Yamaha took a beating for it's decision to use crappy chip amps instead of discrete amps in that series of AVR's...and subsequently felt the need to beef up the amps in the following year's lineup...

 

[alphaiii]

I should point out... Regardless of me not being an apple fan... It's not so much that I'm against AVR manufacturers adding things like AirPlay and iPod/iPad control ect... It's more about adding convenience features as a whole if they come at the expense of the things like amps, power supply, reliability, ect...

I was happy to see Denon release the AVR-1712 this year (and I'm probably one of the few)... But they had the balls to put out a $399 MSRP AVR that has MultiEQ XT and the same exact amp section as it's more expensive 1912/2112 brethren.... and forgoes networking and some of the other convenience features of the more expensive models...

Instead of just saying - "Well, if you want a <$400 MSRP AVR, you can get the AVR-1612. Sure, it only has MultiEQ and not XT, and it only has the weaker 75W/channel amp section... BUT, you get direct iPod/iPhone/iPad control!!! Oh, you don't need that feature? Well tough, that's all you get for under $400 MSRP."

Glad to see Denon provide an option for consumers on a tight budget who would rather focus on the audio quality aspect.


On a side note, regarding the "Apple killed audio quality and closed down the B&M music stores," I think a similar argument can be made about Netflix... and this is coming from a Netflix user...

 

[3db]

I should point out... Regardless of me not being an apple fan... It's not so much that I'm against AVR manufacturers adding things like AirPlay and iPod/iPad control ect... It's more about adding convenience features as a whole if they come at the expense of the things like amps, power supply, reliability, ect...

I was happy to see Denon release the AVR-1712 this year (and I'm probably one of the few)... But they had the balls to put out a $399 MSRP AVR that has MultiEQ XT and the same exact amp section as it's more expensive 1912/2112 brethren.... and forgoes networking and some of the other convenience features of the more expensive models...

Instead of just saying - "Well, if you want a <$400 MSRP AVR, you can get the AVR-1612. Sure, it only has MultiEQ and not XT, and it only has the weaker 75W/channel amp section... BUT, you get direct iPod/iPhone/iPad control!!! Oh, you don't need that feature? Well tough, that's all you get for under $400 MSRP."

Glad to see Denon provide an option for consumers on a tight budget who would rather focus on the audio quality aspect.


On a side note, regarding the "Apple killed audio quality and closed down the B&M music stores," I think a similar argument can be made about Netflix... and this is coming from a Netflix user...

Yamaha also went into a small tail spin when it released teh 1065/2065 series receivers. They were overpriced and under powered . Thankfully, Yamaha didn't sit on their hands too long to replace these models.

 

[sterling shoote]

Today, manufacturers associated with home entertainment, like Sony, are struggling to make a profit in any way and in any arena they perceive themselves to be competent and/or competitive. But, in an abysmal global economy, having a handle on markets and addressing their needs, even when understood, is not assured. Also consider, audio/video today is a paradigm centered around a laptop, not a receiver. The times they are a changin'.

 

[JohnA]

I just love all the Apple Bashing This is so 90's

Please...It seems like most like like to point the finger and whine.

If you like apple ... good

If you like PC ... good

If you like Linux ... good

Who cares....

So apple created a product (ipod) that was easy to use and "cutting edge design" and people like it... If you don't, don't buy it...

I admit I am a mac user but I don't own an ipod, or ipad, or iphone...
I have an android phone

Companies sell to the MASS market, and the MASS market are not audiophiles, so don't blame apple for making a product for the MASS market.
Don't blame other companies integrating iOS features because the MASS market has (i)products.

If you are upset at Apple for what they have done, then come up with something better...

 

[gmichael]

Congratulations?

My condolences?

 

[cpp]

You guys have to realize that you are a very, very small segment of the market. In the low and midrange receiver market, iPod compatibility is a feature that consumers expect.
__________________

that says it all.. The world is revolving around iPod's, iPads, Android devices that offers everything in the palm of their hand as indicated by these statistics:
"iPods sold, Over 297,000,000 worldwide as of December 2010
iPads sold: June 2011 - 25 million

you would be hard pressed to find AVR statistics on units sold as Denon (D&M Holdings) and Yamaha lump everything audio together but you can see where these companies direction is and that's supporting internet and handheld devices as taken from Yamaha's Key Initiatives Under the New YMP125
Medium-Term Management Plan "we will incorporate advanced functions to respond to market
changes such as the prevalence of the iPod and networking"

Yamaha 2010 net sells in all things audio/AV involve
● Audio products (AV receivers, speaker systems, Digital Sound
Projector™, desktop audio systems, etc.)
● Commercial online karaoke equipment
● Routers
● Conferencing systems

those sales where: $54,409 (million)

But this is interesting news: "Denon Plans Online Direct Sales To Consumers"
http://www.twice.com/article/473766-D_M_Outlines_Global_Reorganization_Strategy.php

 

[3db]

that says it all.. The world is revolving around iPod's, iPads, Android devices that offers everything in the palm of their hand as indicated by these statistics:
"iPods sold, Over 297,000,000 worldwide as of December 2010
iPads sold: June 2011 - 25 million

you would be hard pressed to find AVR statistics on units sold as Denon (D&M Holdings) and Yamaha lump everything audio together but you can see where these companies direction is and that's supporting internet and handheld devices as taken from Yamaha's Key Initiatives Under the New YMP125
Medium-Term Management Plan "we will incorporate advanced functions to respond to market
changes such as the prevalence of the iPod and networking"

Yamaha 2010 net sells in all things audio/AV involve
● Audio products (AV receivers, speaker systems, Digital Sound
Projector™, desktop audio systems, etc.)
● Commercial online karaoke equipment
● Routers
● Conferencing systems

those sales where: $54,409 (million)

But this is interesting news: "Denon Plans Online Direct Sales To Consumers"
http://www.twice.com/article/473766-D_M_Outlines_Global_Reorganization_Strategy.php

While we're at comparing hand held devices to audio systems, lets compare hand held to cars or to houses or other things that are not portable as was done with audio systems.

As I stated before...as long as the audio companies do not incorporate net new features at the expense of a solid power supply/amplifier circuits I don't care. But I for one care more about the underlying principles of a good amp/receiver than all the bells and whistles. I take my audio seriously and not as a convenience. I would venture a guess that mosty people on this site and similar sites care more about audio then convenience. This dinosaur is quite content in watching all the lemmings run over the cliff.

I might also add that audio ( I don't mean Walmart specials but your average HT system of 2 grand and more ) was never a huge market or industry to begin with compared to other industries. It was niche market and remains today a niche market.

 

[alphaiii]

Yamaha also went into a small tail spin when it released teh 1065/2065 series receivers. They were overpriced and under powered . Thankfully, Yamaha didn't sit on their hands too long to replace these models.

You're right, it was the xx5 series AVR's from Yamaha that were the problem, not the xx3 series...
http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/trading

 

[j_garcia]

They have done an enormous amount for consumers. Apple has pretty much single handedly revolutionized consumerism.

Fixed that for you.

 

[wire]

To me its just another trend , Just like Lucas Dolby . Apple Ipod's sound quality has always been to middy and terrible sound , to me . Yammy has never been up to snuff to me either , but got blasted here for saying it . But again , ive always owned , old Amp / pre amp systems , since ive been 20 and still own all that old equipment for over 20 years now and still sound awsome ( comes down to Power supply and quality parts and designs .
Apple is a scam . I asked a a apple salesman , what makes apple so much better than other computers ? He said " it is the Porche of computers " , I said it uses the same hardware than everyone else , it mustbe just software . He just said , its the Porche . Humm , Propaganda = scam .
Brent

 

[jonnythan]

Sigh. Apple is not "a scam."

 

[wire]

Sigh. Apple is not "a scam."

Hehe
Ok , just software )) There ipods are terrible sound ))

 

[jonnythan]

No, they're actually not. The original iPods had some hard drive noise get through to the audio signal and they've had a bad rep ever since. Modern iPods have Wolfson DACs with high SNR. They're pretty good all around.

 

[jonnythan]

Don't take my word for it. CNet did some actual measurements of various MP3 players.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12519_7-9968448-49.html

 

[wire]

No, they're actually not. The original iPods had some hard drive noise get through to the audio signal and they've had a bad rep ever since. Modern iPods have Wolfson DACs with high SNR. They're pretty good all around.

Well maybe i will give them another listin , I never hook my mp3 players to my home or car systems . I use NC sony systems for my portable use ( rightnow ) . I do know 2 years or 3 ago , the Ipod was to middy and muddy for me . Again , it was a trend , if they used a design , that did not really sound good and played catch up , with over promotion to the masses .

 

[jeffsg4mac]

There is certainly nothing wrong with having Airplay integration on a receiver or pre/pro. Being able to wired or wirelessly stream my uncompressed audio files from my iTunes library is pretty cool. I wish my new Onkyo was airplay compatible. It does read files from a USB drive so that is the next best thing, however I have to convert my entire library to flac or wav files. Airplay is a much simpler solution. My wife also has the iPod dock on our Denon in the bedroom. She would kill you, your entire family then dig up all your ancestors and dump them out at sea if tried to take it from her.

 

[jonnythan]

Nitpick: there's nothing wrong with compression. Lossless compression like FLAC preserves full audio quality. It's lossy compression that is/can be a problem.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Nitpick: there's nothing wrong with compression. Lossless compression like FLAC preserves full audio quality. It's lossy compression that is/can be a problem.

Correct; FLAC, Apple Lossless, PPCM, DTS, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus and True HD are all forms of lossy and lossless compression and all good.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Unfortunately if you are buying a Apple ipod player you should do your research before you buy them because even different versions of the same player are not engineered the same. Mainly, some models and versions suffer from a high output impedance . As you can see below in this review when the Touch gets compared to a MP3 player that costs a 1/4 of the price.

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/sansa-clip-measured.html