Coronavirus

[Danzilla31]

One last thing that irks me is this virus is deadly but it still only highly target's specific parts of the population in high numbers

It's deadly but it's not a world ending virus

It's not the Black Death as infectious as it is it's been proven that it's not as deadly as SARS or Ebola. I'm tired of people hyping this out to be a super virus

It's DEADLY we should be concerned but if it was like any of the 3 I brought up then yeah I'd throw out my argument for balance and totally be on Docs side of it. I'd be hiding in my house forever because a virus that contagious and that lethal would be a world ending event

This virus does not make people drop like flies it is not a world ending event it's terribly horribly tragic. But our treating it like a super virus and our current solution to dealing with it will cause it to be a world ending event

Man I called this out months ago it's gone exactly as I feared it would at least in the states

First we f@$! Up containment second once we started lockdowns I knew we'd end up being unrealistic about them. Third the politics in the US and the press has gotten people so terrified they never want to stop leaving the house and get back to work that's unsustainable I called all 3 I really hope my last 4 or 5 don't come true

But working psych you get a pretty good view of human nature both the beatiful and the terrible I'm going to cherish everyday to the fullest and not take anything for granted

That's for dang sure

 

[Mr._Clark]

BARDA also is providing hundreds of millions of dollars for vaccine efforts by Sanofi, the large French drug company, and Moderna, a biotech company in Massachusetts teaming with a Swiss company for vaccine manufacturing.

You may have seen this, but Moderna's vaccine was fast-tracked by the FDA:

>>>In what will be of little surprise to anyone, the FDA has hitched its fast-track tag to Moderna’s speedy attempt at an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine.

The label, which aims to help speed up the time a new drug or vaccine takes to hurdle the normal regulatory barriers, is specifically for mRNA-1273, which is hoping for a phase 3 summer trial to assess whether it can protect people from COVID-19.<<<

Moderna nabs FDA fast-track tag for its COVID-19 vax

In what will be of little surprise to anyone, the FDA has hitched its fast-track tag to Moderna’s speedy attempt at an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine. | In what will be of little surprise to anyone, the FDA has hitched its fast-track tag to Moderna’s speedy attempt at an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine.

www.fiercebiotech.com

 

[Dan]

One last thing that irks me is this virus is deadly but it still only highly target's specific parts of the population in high numbers

It's deadly but it's not a world ending virus

It's not the Black Death as infectious as it is it's been proven that it's not as deadly as SARS or Ebola. I'm tired of people hyping this out to be a super virus

It's DEADLY we should be concerned but if it was like any of the 3 I brought up then yeah I'd throw out my argument for balance and totally be on Docs side of it. I'd be hiding in my house forever because a virus that contagious and that lethal would be a world ending event

This virus does not make people drop like flies it is not a world ending event it's terribly horribly tragic. But our treating it like a super virus and our current solution to dealing with it will cause it to be a world ending event

Man I called this out months ago it's gone exactly as I feared it would at least in the states

First we f@$! Up containment second once we started lockdowns I knew we'd end up being unrealistic about them. Third the politics in the US and the press has gotten people so terrified they never want to stop leaving the house and get back to work that's unsustainable I called all 3 I really hope my last 4 or 5 don't come true

But working psych you get a pretty good view of human nature both the beatiful and the terrible I'm going to cherish everyday to the fullest and not take anything for granted

That's for dang sure

Sorry but this is not correct. The virus is killing large numbers of previously healthy younger people as well. No their mortality rates are not the same as sicker and older individuals but to say that young healthy people are not affected is not close to the reality.

 

[Mr._Clark]

It's not the Black Death as infectious as it is it's been proven that it's not as deadly as SARS or Ebola. I'm tired of people hyping this out to be a super virus

Can you provide an example of what you mean by "people hyping this out to be a super virus"? I hear a lot of people say similar things (e.g. "it's overblown" or "it's over hyped") but I don't really see it in the news reports and so on that I read.

Perhaps it's subjective and I just react differently.

As a possible example, Osterholm says he thinks the virus is going to spread until we reach herd immunity. However, this appears to be consistent with your view, so I doubt that it what you have in mind?

There have been numerous reports of people experiencing difficult and prolonged recoveries, but these seem to be fact-based. Most of these reports that I've seen do not include a disclaimer of sorts saying that most people do not experience severe symptoms and recover. I already know this, so these types of news reports do not strike me as hyping it out to be a super virus.

The news does of course report things in a negative manner. As an example, the Denver Post reported a few days ago that a 7th employee of a meat packing plant there died of COVID-19 (https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/06/seventh-jbs-greeley-employee-coronavirus-death/). I believe there are about 3,400 employees at this plant (I don't remember where I found this number, and I'm not 100% sure it's accurate). The article could say that "3,393 employees at JBS did not die from COVID-19." Of course, this type of reporting would be a bit odd if it were to be carried out across the board (e.g. "330,526,673 Americans did not die from a bus plunging off a cliff yesterday.") Is this an example of what you're getting at?

I find myself wondering it you are perhaps referring to a perceived lack of balance in reporting the negative effects of lock downs, etc.? It seems to me that the negative effects of lock downs are getting reported a lot more now that the effects are starting to hit.

Some of the negative effects (e.g. people dying because they delayed treatment for a heart condition) are likely very difficult to quantify. Causation is also difficult to show. I'm not saying it isn't real, but it's not easy to report as a fact. Excess deaths have been reported in various media outlets, but the reports I've seen basically say no one knows sure for sure the cause of the excess deaths (I believe this (no one knows) is factually correct).

As I see it, there aren't any really great solutions right now, just a lot of uncertainty and bad options to choose from.

I'm not saying you're "wrong" I'm trying to understand your perspective.

 

[Danzilla31]

Can you provide an example of what you mean by "people hyping this out to be a super virus"? I hear a lot of people say similar things (e.g. "it's overblown" or "it's over hyped") but I don't really see it in the news reports and so on that I read.

Perhaps it's subjective and I just react differently.

As a possible example, Osterholm says he thinks the virus is going to spread until we reach herd immunity. However, this appears to be consistent with your view, so I doubt that it what you have in mind?

There have been numerous reports of people experiencing difficult and prolonged recoveries, but these seem to be fact-based. Most of these reports that I've seen do not include a disclaimer of sorts saying that most people do not experience severe symptoms and recover. I already know this, so these types of news reports do not strike me as hyping it out to be a super virus.

The news does of course report things in a negative manner. As an example, the Denver Post reported a few days ago that a 7th employee of a meat packing plant there died of COVID-19 (https://www.denverpost.com/2020/05/06/seventh-jbs-greeley-employee-coronavirus-death/). I believe there are about 3,400 employees at this plant (I don't remember where I found this number, and I'm not 100% sure it's accurate). The article could say that "3,393 employees at JBS did not die from COVID-19." Of course, this type of reporting would be a bit odd if it were to be carried out across the board (e.g. "330,526,673 Americans did not die from a bus plunging off a cliff yesterday.") Is this an example of what you're getting at?

I find myself wondering it you are perhaps referring to a perceived lack of balance in reporting the negative effects of lock downs, etc.? It seems to me that the negative effects of lock downs are getting reported a lot more now that the effects are starting to hit.

Some of the negative effects (e.g. people dying because they delayed treatment for a heart condition) are likely very difficult to quantify. Causation is also difficult to show. I'm not saying it isn't real, but it's not easy to report as a fact. Excess deaths have been reported in various media outlets, but the reports I've seen basically say no one knows sure for sure the cause of the excess deaths (I believe this (no one knows) is factually correct).

As I see it, there aren't any really great solutions right now, just a lot of uncertainty and bad options to choose from.

I'm not saying you're "wrong" I'm trying to understand your perspective.

My stance is pretty simple

Your right in that I think too much emphasis is on the problems with the virus and not enough reporting on the problems with the economic impact we are having

I'm not trying to state I know what policies need to be taken

I am asking for a balanced response to both sides of the problem so that people can have a balanced response in there reactions they deserve the whole truth

It's really that simple that is all

As far as news oversensationalizimg the virus I'll post some links to articles I've seen here in a sec. It's not that the articles bother me. It's the fact that they are NEWS not PUBLISHED scientific studies that clearly back up that there is a true connection

Like Dan said above younger people are dying nobody said they wouldn't

TLS Guy could be right about the further complications of this virus

But where are the scientific articles that establish this and how many are affected what is the hard data on this?

I'm not being argumentative here but I'd like to see both TLS Guy and Dan post there links that show the scientific data that backs up that people are permanently impaired from this or that LARGE numbers of young people are dieing or that this truly causes Kawalski syndrome like disease in children or it leads to strokes and blood clotting in large numbers of people if so how many?

What are the numerator and denominator of these incidents and can it be proven?

You can't just have some cases and then just say this may be causing these things you need to PROVE that these things are definetly being caused be the virus

If there is a link then okay if you can't prove it you need to state that clearly there may be a link we researchers are looking into but we don't know for sure and it's not proven yet but you need to be aware that is not the tone when these things are being reported on the news and on this thread

My stance is I want balance in the reporting so could Dan and others please show me links to scientific studies that clearly state this virus kills a lot of younger people causes Kawalski like syndrome in children causes blood clots strokes mental and neurological problems as well as the heart problems of inflammation and the respiratory issue we do know for a fact that it causes

He'll I'm a front line worker working with a very susceptible population in the mentally ill. If I'm in high danger of getting a stroke blood clots hear attack neurological issues if my nephews and nieces are in high risk if they ever get around me of a disease like Kawalski syndrome if I'm guaranteed to end up on a ventilator with total organ failure
If I'm guaranteed to have really long term complications if I get this virus
Well then Id like to know and Id like the proof so I can make a balanced decision

So WILL SOMEONE PLEASE PUBLISH the scientific proof of these things to balance out the ECONOMIC proof of the damage we already know has occurred so we can have a balanced response?

That is my stance

That's all I'm asking is that too much too ask?

 

[Danzilla31]

Coronavirus detected on particles of air pollution

Exclusive: Scientists examine whether this route may enable infections at longer distances

www.theguardian.com

 

[Danzilla31]

That's just one article I can go on and on and on and on let me see if I can find the articles about children that concerned me

 

[Danzilla31]

https://www.google.com/url?q=[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwin-p7p9K7pAhUVo54KHV2JDi0QFjABegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1AEp_V95f4_Vxy7_ioE4TH

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[Danzilla31]

[TQUOTE="Danzilla31, post: 1390381, member: 85700"]

https://www.google.com/url?q=[URL]https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwin-p7p9K7pAhUVo54KHV2JDi0QFjABegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1AEp_V95f4_Vxy7_ioE4TH

[/URL]
[/QUOTE]
The thing that bothers me is that they state scientists are going to publish three articles but they HAVENT DONE SO YET.

So how you can you pitch this virus as something that like the article states attacks literally every organ in the body?

The scientists in the article clearly state that they are unclear of how there is a link but they can make an educated GUESS.

That's a theory theories need to be PROVEN

and Even if it is true what are the scientifuc percentages of the young that get this

The old that get sick?

Out of the vast many that will get infected what is the true numerator vs denominator of infections that will result in these types of problems

What are the percentages what are the odds?

I'd like to know please before you shotgun these articles all over the worldwide press and there just press reports not peer reviewed articles

As TLS Guy states it is a terrible virus but is it terrible enough to justifying staying in our houses with literally everything shut down till even our medical systems collapse and we can't even have a place to treat patients like this anymore?

Is it too much to ask for some of you guys that keep making these type of statements to give me hard scientific data

So I can truly know what my risks are and calculate what type of risks I'm willing to take ?

 

[Danzilla31]

I can link dozens of these types of news links some look more valid then others some are clearly ridiculous but for the less educated that trust there scientists it just incites panic or eventually oversaturation which leads to apathy and defiance on protocols that can actually help us open up safer

 

[Danzilla31]

Heres my final take my patients in the military units are terrified of all the news

A couple are suicidal right now because they see no hope in leaving the facility because of getting sick from the virus or not having a job if they are transitioning out of the military

We really had our work cut out yesterday calming them down and keeping them safe from self harming

And a lot of it is coming from the NEWS

So ultimately even if your right TLS Guy I'm not abandoning my post I'm not not showing up to work

I don't care if I get a stroke or heart attack or brain aneurysm or blood clots or lose lung capacity as has been all claimed these people need my help and I'm not leaving them

We all die but not everyone truly lives

It's been a good 47 years if this is what I have to face so be it you cant hide from it lockdowns won't stop it only slow it

I Damn sure will be careful that when I go in there these patients are going to see a bright cheerful supportive staff who is only going to pass on information from hospital policy that has clearly been scientifically proven

I'm sure not going to tell them you may be at risk for strokes even in your 20's if it hasn't clearly been PROVEN. In fact I may not even tell them then because they are acute psychiatric care and they may not be able to handle the truth at that stage of there illness . that burden belongs to me

Thats My take

 

[Mr._Clark]

My stance is pretty simple

Your right in that I think too much emphasis is on the problems with the virus and not enough reporting on the problems with the economic impact we are having

I'm not trying to state I know what policies need to be taken

I am asking for a balanced response to both sides of the problem so that people can have a balanced response in there reactions they deserve the whole truth

It's really that simple that is all

As far as news overhauling the virus I'll post some links to articles I've seen here in a sec. It's not that the articles bother me. It's the fact that they are NEWS not PUBLISHED scientific studies that clearly back up that there is a true connection

Like Dan said above younger people are dying nobody said they wouldn't

TLS Guy could be right about the further complications of this virus

But where are the scientific articles that establish this and how many are affected what is the hard data on this?

I'm not being argumentative here but I'd like to see both TLS Guy and Dan post there links that show the scientific data that backs up that people are permanently impaired from this or that LARGE numbers of young people are dieing or that this truly causes Kawalski syndrome like disease in children or it leads to strokes and blood clotting in large numbers of people if so how many?

What are the numerator and denominator of these incidents and can it be proven?

You can't just have some cases and then just say this may be causing these things you need to PROVE that these things are definetly being caused be the virus

If there is a link then okay if you can't prove it you need to state that clearly there may be a link we researchers are looking into but we don't know for sure and it's not proven yet but you need to be aware that is not the tone when these things are being reported on the news and on this thread

My stance is I want balance in the reporting so could Dan and others please show me links to scientific studies that clearly state this virus kills a lot of younger people causes Kawalski like syndrome in children causes blood clots strokes mental and neurological problems as well as the heart problems of inflammation and the respiratory issue we do know for a fact that it causes

He'll I'm a front line worker working with a very susceptible population in the mentally ill. If I'm in high danger of getting a stroke blood clots hear attack neurological issues if my nephews and nieces are in high risk if they ever get around me of a disease like Kawalski syndrome if I'm guaranteed to end up on a ventilator with total organ failure
If I'm guaranteed to have really long term complications if I get this virus
Well then Id like to know and Id like the proof so I can make a balanced decision

So WILL SOMEONE PLEASE PUBLISH the scientific proof of these things to balance out the ECONOMIC proof of the damage we already know has occurred so we can have a balanced response?

That is my stance

That's all I'm asking is that too much too ask?

As I see it, the big picture is that it's not possible to prove what will happen in the future with any degree of certainty. There is a lot of uncertainty associated with any given course of action. Granted, some predictions are much more plausible than others.

So we are forced to make decisions despite the uncertainty.

For another perspective, have you read any of Nassim Taleb's articles concerning the pandemic? I have a hard time reading a lot of his papers because he's so freaking arrogant (and he seems to assume everyone else is a moron), but some of his observations regarding the COVID-19 pandemic and uncertainty are "interesting" (my way of saying he might have a couple points, even though I don't agree with everything he says)

Here's one example: https://nassimtaleb.org/2020/03/ethics-precaution/

Here's another: https://nassimtaleb.org/category/writing/

As I see it, his main point is that it makes sense to take into account the reality of what we know and what we don't know, what we can and can't do, and also account for the unlikely yet catastrophic events that are possible. He does seem to be a bit preoccupied with "fat tails," but hey, to each his own.

 

[Danzilla31]

As I see it, the big picture is that it's not possible to prove what will happen in the future with any degree of certainty. There is a lot of uncertainty associated with any given course of action. Granted, some predictions are much more plausible than others.

So we are forced to make decisions despite the uncertainty.

For another perspective, have you read any of Nassim Taleb's articles concerning the pandemic? I have a hard time reading a lot of his papers because he's so freaking arrogant (and he seems to assume everyone else is a moron), but some of his observations regarding the COVID-19 pandemic and uncertainty are "interesting" (my way of saying he might have a couple points, even though I don't agree with everything he says)

Here's one example: https://nassimtaleb.org/2020/03/ethics-precaution/

Here's another: https://nassimtaleb.org/category/writing/

As I see it, his main point is that it makes sense to take into account the reality of what we know and what we don't know, what we can and can't do, and also account for the unlikely yet catastrophic events that are possible. He does seem to be a bit preoccupied with "fat tails," but hey, to each his own.

No I haven't read that article I need to get ready for work but thank you I will look it over tonight and I appreciate you passing it on

 

[JerryLove]

The big picture is India has 1.5 million cases of tuberculosis already going untreated

And that's OK with you?

India has about 1 billion people. What if all of them get infected?

So, assuming first-rate medical care is available, a complete infection of coronavirus will kill 13 million. (One billion * 0.013)
Assuming that the hospitals are overloaded and people who need hospitalization die, it will kill >100 million (one billion *0.10)

That's immediately (does this sometimes cause you to die 5 years later? What about death by loss of job from disability? ) And that's direct deaths (not people who die because their heart attack is untreated by an overloaded medical system)

The big picture is diseases scientists thought we'd gained the upper hand on while ravage the poor across the world especially when we can no longer afford vaccines for then to the poor of the world

The big picture is the WHO has already estimated 125 million across the world will die of starvation due to the lockdowns in place now that will increase if continued

If only there were about a billion things we could do to address that directly.

The big picture is 75000 Americans are already projected to commit suicide from this and that's just here not even worldwide

How many will commit suicide stemming from COVID-19 related disability?

We don't actually have a number but, again, there's a great deal we can do to avoid that.

Strange how so few seem to care about the suicides last year.

The big picture is many more will die from violence and child abuse and domestic violence and war and this will increase child abuse

Again: What did you do about that last year?

The big picture is our medical system will collapse well before COVID can overrun us The lives lost from that will be a lot of people aren't getting there dialysis done chemotherapy treatments are being delayed elective procedures that actually will became life threatening if not eventually done will be delayed

No one has been told to avoid dialysis or chemo.

The big picture is we our already experiencing disruptions to our food supply chain

From people getting sick, not from the lockdown. Your solution is to have more people get sick faster.

The big picture is we will have massive inflation that will cripple our children and grandchildres ability to make any type of living at all

That's not how inflation works. Inflation hurts people with savings. It doesn't hurt future earners. Do you even know what the inflation rate in 1890 was? Do you really think it affects you?

 

[Dan]

Incidence of thrombotic complications in critically ill ICU patients with COVID-19

COVID-19 may predispose to both venous and arterial thromboembolism due to excessive inflammation, hypoxia, immobilisation and diffuse intravascular c…

www.sciencedirect.com

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10072-020-04375-9.pdf

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/STROKEAHA.120.029701

Prevalence and impact of cardiovascular metabolic diseases on COVID-19 in China - Clinical Research in Cardiology

Background Studies have reminded that cardiovascular metabolic comorbidities made patients more susceptible to suffer 2019 novel corona virus (2019-nCoV) disease (COVID-19), and exacerbated the infection. The aim of this analysis is to determine the association of cardiovascular metabolic...

link.springer.com

Immune mechanisms of pulmonary intravascular coagulopathy in COVID-19 pneumonia

The lung pathology seen in patients with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) shows marked microvascular thrombosis and haemorrhage linked to extensive…

www.sciencedirect.com

A simple google scholar search of stroke and covid yielded 22 pages of hits in published journals before I got tired. All of these are reputable journals. That covid cause clotting is well established in the medical community. Experiences out of NYC have shown young patients (less than 50) with no underlying medical conditions other than acute covid infection suffering from catastrophic strokes and myocardial infarcts. WE HAVE NOT seen this in any infection I am aware of before. As TLS said this is no ordinary flu. Flu does not kill the people trying to provide care to those infected.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Sorry but this is not correct. The virus is killing large numbers of previously healthy younger people as well. No their mortality rates are not the same as sicker and older individuals but to say that young healthy people are not affected is not close to the reality.

Especially with the pictures on line with children being seriously affected.

 

[mtrycrafts]

How about that one customer in S. Korea who entered a bar, then 2 others one night not long ago who soon after tested positive and now there are 5,000 individuals that his action caused to be tested, 5,000.

 

[Danzilla31]

Incidence of thrombotic complications in critically ill ICU patients with COVID-19

COVID-19 may predispose to both venous and arterial thromboembolism due to excessive inflammation, hypoxia, immobilisation and diffuse intravascular c…

www.sciencedirect.com

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10072-020-04375-9.pdf

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/STROKEAHA.120.029701

Prevalence and impact of cardiovascular metabolic diseases on COVID-19 in China - Clinical Research in Cardiology

Background Studies have reminded that cardiovascular metabolic comorbidities made patients more susceptible to suffer 2019 novel corona virus (2019-nCoV) disease (COVID-19), and exacerbated the infection. The aim of this analysis is to determine the association of cardiovascular metabolic...

link.springer.com

Immune mechanisms of pulmonary intravascular coagulopathy in COVID-19 pneumonia

The lung pathology seen in patients with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) shows marked microvascular thrombosis and haemorrhage linked to extensive…

www.sciencedirect.com

A simple google scholar search of stroke and covid yielded 22 pages of hits in published journals before I got tired. All of these are reputable journals. That covid cause clotting is well established in the medical community. Experiences out of NYC have shown young patients (less than 50) with no underlying medical conditions other than acute covid infection suffering from catastrophic strokes and myocardial infarcts. WE HAVE NOT seen this in any infection I am aware of before. As TLS said this is no ordinary flu. Flu does kill the people trying to provide care to those infected.

Once again it has never been stated that COVID won't affect the young the odds are lower but it's still there.

What does those percentages mean? How does it translate across the board with total infections

If these are only in ICU cases and it's only a % of those cases what does it mean for the average layperson to understand

How do you translate that data into useful policy.

Once again not to argue but better understand

If your only suggestion like TLS Guy is to extend the lockdowns until there is a vaccine then we might as well just not continue dialoging because that's just not realistic
No disrespect

 

[Danzilla31]

And that's OK with you?

India has about 1 billion people. What if all of them get infected?

So, assuming first-rate medical care is available, a complete infection of coronavirus will kill 13 million. (One billion * 0.013)
Assuming that the hospitals are overloaded and people who need hospitalization die, it will kill >100 million (one billion *0.10)

That's immediately (does this sometimes cause you to die 5 years later? What about death by loss of job from disability? ) And that's direct deaths (not people who die because their heart attack is untreated by an overloaded medical system)


If only there were about a billion things we could do to address that directly.


How many will commit suicide stemming from COVID-19 related disability?

We don't actually have a number but, again, there's a great deal we can do to avoid that.

Strange how so few seem to care about the suicides last year.


Again: What did you do about that last year?


No one has been told to avoid dialysis or chemo.


From people getting sick, not from the lockdown. Your solution is to have more people get sick faster.


That's not how inflation works. Inflation hurts people with savings. It doesn't hurt future earners. Do you even know what the inflation rate in 1890 was? Do you really think it affects you?

what was I doing with people being infected by poverty mental illness rape child abuse and on and on.

I work in psych nursing for years trying to help them out

I've been shot at stabbed assaulted scratched accidentally needle poked when violent codes got out of hand had to get HIV tested on that one patient had HIV

I volunteer at Haven for Hope here in San Antonio working with the homeless

I could go on and on what did you do to help out with these problems ?

 

[Danzilla31]

And that's OK with you?

India has about 1 billion people. What if all of them get infected?

So, assuming first-rate medical care is available, a complete infection of coronavirus will kill 13 million. (One billion * 0.013)
Assuming that the hospitals are overloaded and people who need hospitalization die, it will kill >100 million (one billion *0.10)

That's immediately (does this sometimes cause you to die 5 years later? What about death by loss of job from disability? ) And that's direct deaths (not people who die because their heart attack is untreated by an overloaded medical system)


If only there were about a billion things we could do to address that directly.


How many will commit suicide stemming from COVID-19 related disability?

We don't actually have a number but, again, there's a great deal we can do to avoid that.

Strange how so few seem to care about the suicides last year.


Again: What did you do about that last year?


No one has been told to avoid dialysis or chemo.


From people getting sick, not from the lockdown. Your solution is to have more people get sick faster.


That's not how inflation works. Inflation hurts people with savings. It doesn't hurt future earners. Do you even know what the inflation rate in 1890 was? Do you really think it affects you?

What's your solution then?

What would you do because from everything you've said were going to have those problems anyway with COVID no matter what you either pay for it now or later if you pay for it layer then you add every thing on top of what's already a tragic situation

You like to break everybody down but I've yet to hear you offer a solution

And once again if it's just lock up until a vaccine arrives like I mentioned to someone else we might as well not waste each others time going back and forth

Seems to me people are going to die from this no matter how hard you try until a vaccine arrives sometimes you just have to suck it up no matter how hard it is

My friend at work lost his mother to this my best friend who had a stroke came down with it in his nursing home I'll probably get it before too long

You can't run from it lets not be stupid as we keep living but do we really advocate for everything else collapsing with it

Because extended lockdowns will collapse medical systems and your worst case scenarious will happeb with the virus plus everything else on top

And by the way chemo and other treatments are being delayed my sister works with a group down by Vegas shes in upper management a lot of neccessary electives are being delayed it'll get worse the more the medical system gets bankrupt