Big System Help - Does what I want exist?

[CaptnPowerPlay]

I am having a difficult time finding something with as FEW components as possible which can all be controlled via cell phone / tablet apps.

I have the following:

Living room 5.1 system w/ Plasma TV
Open Kitchen w/ LCD TV and 2 in-ceiling speakers
Master Bedroom w/ Plasma TV and 2 in-wall speakers
Outdoor with 2 speakers


The Living room and Kitchen TV will always share and have the same thing on the displays if they are both powered on (example football games, favorite TV show as we bounce from the kitchen to the living room areas)

the living room plasma will have audio through 5.1 def tech procinema speakers

the kitchen tv does not NEED to play the audio through the in-ceiling speakers, but a bonus if it can

the master bedroom needs to be independent and be watching a different source from the living room and/or kitchen and play the tv audio through the master bedroom plasma TV speakers and ability to play tv audio to the in-wall speakers i hope?

there is alot of summertime visitors and weekend partying, so then i would want to be able to turn on the outdoor speakers and put at least 3 or all 4 zones into a party mode for the same music throughout everywhere. (which will be primarily Pandora or other internet radio stations)


IN SHORT:
2 TVS share the same source
1 TV be independent on its own source

5.1 system PLUS 3 more two-channel zones ...

all controlable with a app or iphone or something so i dont have to be outside and walk into house to change settings, or dont have to be in my bed at night and walk downstairs to switch wires or change buttons.

is this possible?

i have looked at the AVR4000 ... the AVR 4520 ... the Yamaha 2030 AND 3030....

it seems like there's a glitch or impossible aspect of what i'm trying to do in every scenario.... my house is pre-wired with speakers wires going everywhere and anywhere, and there are also possibilities of volume control knobs anywhere or wherever.

Please help, i want to buy something yesterday this has been over a month in the making, i have all new speakers everywhere and wired and TVs hung and HDMIs run and all the def tech speakers sitting pretty and 8" ceiling speakers everywhere with no way to hear any of it, haha.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am having a difficult time finding something with as FEW components as possible which can all be controlled via cell phone / tablet apps.

I have the following:

Living room 5.1 system w/ Plasma TV
Open Kitchen w/ LCD TV and 2 in-ceiling speakers
Master Bedroom w/ Plasma TV and 2 in-wall speakers
Outdoor with 2 speakers


The Living room and Kitchen TV will always share and have the same thing on the displays if they are both powered on (example football games, favorite TV show as we bounce from the kitchen to the living room areas)

the living room plasma will have audio through 5.1 def tech procinema speakers

the kitchen tv does not NEED to play the audio through the in-ceiling speakers, but a bonus if it can

the master bedroom needs to be independent and be watching a different source from the living room and/or kitchen and play the tv audio through the master bedroom plasma TV speakers and ability to play tv audio to the in-wall speakers i hope?

there is alot of summertime visitors and weekend partying, so then i would want to be able to turn on the outdoor speakers and put at least 3 or all 4 zones into a party mode for the same music throughout everywhere. (which will be primarily Pandora or other internet radio stations)


IN SHORT:
2 TVS share the same source
1 TV be independent on its own source

5.1 system PLUS 3 more two-channel zones ...

all controlable with a app or iphone or something so i dont have to be outside and walk into house to change settings, or dont have to be in my bed at night and walk downstairs to switch wires or change buttons.

is this possible?

i have looked at the AVR4000 ... the AVR 4520 ... the Yamaha 2030 AND 3030....

it seems like there's a glitch or impossible aspect of what i'm trying to do in every scenario.... my house is pre-wired with speakers wires going everywhere and anywhere, and there are also possibilities of volume control knobs anywhere or wherever.

Please help, i want to buy something yesterday this has been over a month in the making, i have all new speakers everywhere and wired and TVs hung and HDMIs run and all the def tech speakers sitting pretty and 8" ceiling speakers everywhere with no way to hear any of it, haha.

There seems to be serious lack of planning and foresight in your system.

If you are planning an ambitious system, then you plan out everything to the last detail, before you run a single wire or mount any speakers.

The next thing you need to understand is that receivers by themselves make very bad whole house audio distribution systems.

I don't think there is an App that will do what you want via a receiver.

However there are complex systems than that can work with smart home integrators, that can work the audio end especially. They work through distribution amps, key pads and apps.

I think the best you can hope to do is to put a receiver in your living room for that system. You can get the audio to other parts of the house, by feeding the zone 2 out to a distribution amp. Some receivers only send analog sources out over zone 2 and some from HDMI, so this is something you need to check.

If you get a receiver with two HDMI out zones, you can get the receiver to send the same picture to both TVs. If the distance is over 25 ft, then you will need a powered HDMI cable or HDMI over Cat 5. If you want the bedroom system run form the living room system you will need an HDMI splitter. I don't know of a receiver with 3 HDMI outs, but I suppose there could be one out there.

If your receiver sends audio form HDMI from from zone 2, then your distribution amp will get audio to the rest of the house.

I have not heard of a receiver controlled by a phone app. I have experiemented controlling an HTPC from a portable device, using VPN via Team Viewer. Not a lot of advantage.

In summary, there are Integrators that will do some of what you want, but I don't think it will control a receiver yet, but I bet it will happen.

I'm on the Linkedin Cedia group. I note from the professioanls, that Smart Home installations with integrators have a lot of sales resistance. I think due to compelxity and cost.

It ends up, that it easier to walk over and throw a switch than go though a ton of screen menus. It seems to me these installations have not achieved the sales penetration the enthusiasts hoped for.

You seem to be new to this, and I bet you have already made some mistakes and oversights.

I would contact a local CEDIA certified installer to have a look at what you have already done and advise you. Don't expect his advice to be free.

Crestron seem one of the leading integrators, and they can control a receiver with a remote IR from radio link form a router. Again I would talk to a CEDIA installer.

 

[Nestor]

I am having a difficult time finding something with as FEW components as possible which can all be controlled via cell phone / tablet apps.

I have the following:

Living room 5.1 system w/ Plasma TV
Open Kitchen w/ LCD TV and 2 in-ceiling speakers
Master Bedroom w/ Plasma TV and 2 in-wall speakers
Outdoor with 2 speakers


The Living room and Kitchen TV will always share and have the same thing on the displays if they are both powered on (example football games, favorite TV show as we bounce from the kitchen to the living room areas)

the living room plasma will have audio through 5.1 def tech procinema speakers

the kitchen tv does not NEED to play the audio through the in-ceiling speakers, but a bonus if it can

the master bedroom needs to be independent and be watching a different source from the living room and/or kitchen and play the tv audio through the master bedroom plasma TV speakers and ability to play tv audio to the in-wall speakers i hope?

there is alot of summertime visitors and weekend partying, so then i would want to be able to turn on the outdoor speakers and put at least 3 or all 4 zones into a party mode for the same music throughout everywhere. (which will be primarily Pandora or other internet radio stations)


IN SHORT:
2 TVS share the same source
1 TV be independent on its own source

5.1 system PLUS 3 more two-channel zones ...

all controlable with a app or iphone or something so i dont have to be outside and walk into house to change settings, or dont have to be in my bed at night and walk downstairs to switch wires or change buttons.

is this possible?

i have looked at the AVR4000 ... the AVR 4520 ... the Yamaha 2030 AND 3030....

it seems like there's a glitch or impossible aspect of what i'm trying to do in every scenario.... my house is pre-wired with speakers wires going everywhere and anywhere, and there are also possibilities of volume control knobs anywhere or wherever.

Please help, i want to buy something yesterday this has been over a month in the making, i have all new speakers everywhere and wired and TVs hung and HDMIs run and all the def tech speakers sitting pretty and 8" ceiling speakers everywhere with no way to hear any of it, haha.

If you are planning for an extensive distributed A/V from the start, AVR's aren't your best choice. Most can't handle the number of zones that you have planned. My home theater AVR feeds two other receivers, but I did this only because I had the components already, and I didn't mess with video. I wouldn't recommend it if you are starting from scratch.

Your budget is also an important factor, and how you want to control everything. Apps are nice, but you also mentioned volume controls for each room. Have they been wired? How?

Companies such as HTD, Nuvo, Russound, etc, use cat5 cable for their controllers. Do you have Cat5 run to each zone? If not, and the drywall is up, you're going to be looking at a lot of labor to fish wires and refinish walls.

If this isn't an option now, you could look at wireless systems such as Nuvo and Sonos to minimize the wiring headaches. Keep in mind, this is only for sound. Distributed video is another ball of wax.

Yes, there are apps that can control multiple components. iRule and Roomie are the first that come to mind, but they only communicate over your LAN via IP. Unless your devices have direct IP control, you will need interfaces which convert either infrared or RS232 serial to IP commands. Then you need to set up the app, which takes time, planning, and computer work.

Really, I'd stop where you are, and before you buy anything else, research further. What looks simple at first can become really complicated very quickly.

Have you checked AVS forums? There is a subforum there that discusses distributed A/V. There's some really good info.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you are planning for an extensive distributed A/V from the start, AVR's aren't your best choice. Most can't handle the number of zones that you have planned. My home theater AVR feeds two other receivers, but I did this only because I had the components already, and I didn't mess with video. I wouldn't recommend it if you are starting from scratch.

Your budget is also an important factor, and how you want to control everything. Apps are nice, but you also mentioned volume controls for each room. Have they been wired? How?

Companies such as HTD, Nuvo, Russound, etc, use cat5 cable for their controllers. Do you have Cat5 run to each zone? If not, and the drywall is up, you're going to be looking at a lot of labor to fish wires and refinish walls.

If this isn't an option now, you could look at wireless systems such as Nuvo and Sonos to minimize the wiring headaches. Keep in mind, this is only for sound. Distributed video is another ball of wax.

Yes, there are apps that can control multiple components. iRule and Roomie are the first that come to mind, but they only communicate over your LAN via IP. Unless your devices have direct IP control, you will need interfaces which convert either infrared or RS232 serial to IP commands. Then you need to set up the app, which takes time, planning, and computer work.

Really, I'd stop where you are, and before you buy anything else, research further. What looks simple at first can become really complicated very quickly.

Have you checked AVS forums? There is a subforum there that discusses distributed A/V. There's some really good info.

We have both told him pretty much the same thing. I have learned form the CEDIA forums that getting the right integrator is crucial. Radio controlled IR transmitters with radio link can control pretty much anything from a portable device with the right integrator.

I fear he has just worried about speakers, but he will need a lot of other wiring, to bring power to devices such as IR transmitters for one thing.

I'm afraid he in for sticker shock, bug time, with all this.

 

[CaptnPowerPlay]

We have both told him pretty much the same thing. I have learned form the CEDIA forums that getting the right integrator is crucial. Radio controlled IR transmitters with radio link can control pretty much anything from a portable device with the right integrator.

I fear he has just worried about speakers, but he will need a lot of other wiring, to bring power to devices such as IR transmitters for one thing.

I'm afraid he in for sticker shock, bug time, with all this.

Thank you for all the input so far. I will better review this thread when I get home to my computer, it is hard to read all of it on my iPhone. I built the entire house myself, so getting wires places is no problem at all. Every room and TV location and wallplate is interconnected with multiple cat6 wire, multiple speaker wires, and several RG6 runs everywhere. I can very easily get additional wires to these locations to my "rack". I wasn't primarily concerned with speakers, however they were somewhat easy decisions and easy to install, that's why I tackled some of that in my spare time.

My original plan two years ago before most of the things currently available. There was a plan, but it changed with the onset of technology and apps to control these devices.

Correct me if I am wrong, but what I am looking for is very close to existing, I just fall short by one powered zone for speakers. And all of that is controllable through the apps offered by Yamaha and Denon. I have both of their apps on my devices and play with them in my spare time to get acquainted. The 4520, for example has two HDMI for one zone, and a separate HDMI for another independent zone. It can also assign several of the speakers to independent audio zones and maintain 5.1 in the main room. This basically leaves me short one powered speakers own, which I figure I could tackle by using pre-outs to a small amplifier for outside perhaps, but it would not be fully independent and app controlled, it would be dictated by what zone two or zone three is doing depending which pre-out I use. I could be grossly misinformed though, I have read front to back most of the high-end receiver manuals.

There's no cheap way about doing what I am doing, I'm looking at two and $3000 receivers, so I am obviously willing to spend some money here. I just wish I could figure out the best way to use a Yamaha 3030 or a Denon 4000 or 4520 and "rig" the missing powered zone and deal with it.

Walking into Best Buy now, I will revise this when I get back to my computer. Bought a brand-new 240 Hz 3-D LED TV the other day, and I hate it. Think I will go back to plasma again.

 

[jotham]

While I completely agree with the previous posters that you are biting off more than you can chew, I will take a stab at a simple (relatively) system that would accomplish most of your objectives.


For whole house music, go with a Sonos system. I will specify exact components.

Living Room System. Get a decent receiver. Two HDMI outs would give you the same picture on the kitchen tv but I frankly don't think it's worth the hassle. I would just use my kitchen tv remote to switch to the same channel if I really cared that much. In my opinion, it is better to think of the kitchen as a separate entity.
Attach a Sonos - Connect to the living room receiver
Amazon.com: SONOS - CONNECT Wireless Streaming Music Stereo Receiver Component: Electronics

Kitchen - A much cheaper approach would be to get a SONOS - CONNECT:AMP for the kitchen ceiling speakers. You can feed the TV audio into the SONOS for when you are watching TV and use other SONOS sources for whole house audio.
Amazon.com: SONOS CONNECT:AMP Wireless Streaming Music System with Amplifier for Speakers (ZonePlayer120): Electronics

Master Bedroom - another receiver, another SONOS - Connect if you want music in that room (you do).

Outdoor speakers - Sonos - Connect:AMP

It's not that this can't be accomplished with high end receivers, it's that programming all this is a major endeavour or requires expensive contractors. By having distinct zones, the complexity is reduced and the SONOS handles all of the whole house audio stuff. You would still need to set some speaker levels but that's just a walk around the house.

Later on, you could maybe add Logitech Harmony Ultimate Hubs for iphone/ipad control of the various receivers. But first, I would get the basic setup working.
Amazon.com : Logitech 915-000194 Harmony Smart Control with Smartphone App and Simple Remote - Black : Audio Video Remote Controls : Electronics

good luck,

Jotham

 

[CaptnPowerPlay]

While I completely agree with the previous posters that you are biting off more than you can chew, I will take a stab at a simple (relatively) system that would accomplish most of your objectives.


For whole house music, go with a Sonos system. I will specify exact components.

Living Room System. Get a decent receiver. Two HDMI outs would give you the same picture on the kitchen tv but I frankly don't think it's worth the hassle. I would just use my kitchen tv remote to switch to the same channel if I really cared that much. In my opinion, it is better to think of the kitchen as a separate entity.
Attach a Sonos - Connect to the living room receiver
Amazon.com: SONOS - CONNECT Wireless Streaming Music Stereo Receiver Component: Electronics

Kitchen - A much cheaper approach would be to get a SONOS - CONNECT:AMP for the kitchen ceiling speakers. You can feed the TV audio into the SONOS for when you are watching TV and use other SONOS sources for whole house audio.
Amazon.com: SONOS CONNECT:AMP Wireless Streaming Music System with Amplifier for Speakers (ZonePlayer120): Electronics

Master Bedroom - another receiver, another SONOS - Connect if you want music in that room (you do).

Outdoor speakers - Sonos - Connect:AMP

It's not that this can't be accomplished with high end receivers, it's that programming all this is a major endeavour or requires expensive contractors. By having distinct zones, the complexity is reduced and the SONOS handles all of the whole house audio stuff. You would still need to set some speaker levels but that's just a walk around the house.

Later on, you could maybe add Logitech Harmony Ultimate Hubs for iphone/ipad control of the various receivers. But first, I would get the basic setup working.
Amazon.com : Logitech 915-000194 Harmony Smart Control with Smartphone App and Simple Remote - Black : Audio Video Remote Controls : Electronics

good luck,

Jotham

Jotham

Thank you for your insight. I have considered along the lines of your recommendation. And is certainly my fallback scenario. The harmony smart hub is also on my research list. I respect the other posters to my thread but regretfully disagree with their assessment of my alleged poor planning. I am far from an av expert but am not a lazy consumer and Know there are apps to do everything I want and there are multiple 3 hdmi out receivers on market with 3-4 distribution zones. And I have prewired every area and. Component and Tv with all available or neccessary wiring w ability to run more cabling. I have been on the firing end at newbies on their first post too Hehe.

Like I said I am short control / power to a zone with current high end receivers. I have a space issue with this custom built in rack recessed into a wall and am trying to accomplish this with as few cable boxes blurays and receivers as possible. The 3hdmi receivers save me a cable box, and receivers around 2k can power 5.1 plus two audio zones with iphone and tablet control. The sonos amps come into play Bc how small and simple they are with app control. Here to discover if there's another secret or suggestion to my setup which I don't view as overly complex, but I am biased ~

 

[Nestor]

Jotham

Thank you for your insight. I have considered along the lines of your recommendation. And is certainly my fallback scenario. The harmony smart hub is also on my research list. I respect the other posters to my thread but regretfully disagree with their assessment of my alleged poor planning. I am far from an av expert but am not a lazy consumer and Know there are apps to do everything I want and there are multiple 3 hdmi out receivers on market with 3-4 distribution zones. And I have prewired every area and. Component and Tv with all available or neccessary wiring w ability to run more cabling. I have been on the firing end at newbies on their first post too Hehe.

Like I said I am short control / power to a zone with current high end receivers. I have a space issue with this custom built in rack recessed into a wall and am trying to accomplish this with as few cable boxes blurays and receivers as possible. The 3hdmi receivers save me a cable box, and receivers around 2k can power 5.1 plus two audio zones with iphone and tablet control. The sonos amps come into play Bc how small and simple they are with app control. Here to discover if there's another secret or suggestion to my setup which I don't view as overly complex, but I am biased ~

iRule or Roomie for IOS, along with interfaces from Global Cache will control most any IR or Serial RS232 A/V device.

I'm using my AVR to distribute audio to two other receivers, and have set up rudimentary control with iRule on my iPhone. I didn't want to go Sonos, but I didn't have the budget or means to wire my house for a full-on whole house audio system. I did, however, have three receivers located in different areas of my house. I logged my experiences here.

My biggest suggestion is to read over the owner's manual. Incomplete matrixing, and latency between zones, are two shortcomings I encountered when I set up my RX-A3000.

You will want to examine the owner's manual thoroughly of the candidate AVR to ensure it will do what you want it to do. In the 3030 manual, look for a section on Zones to find some charts that will lay out what input/source can be sent to which Zone. Manufacturers are trying to wring out features without adding dedicated signal processing, but it means the AVR doesn't quite do what they say it does.

Latency is a known issue for the 3000. The main zone "lags" Zone 2 and 3 to such a degree that a "slap" effect can be heard if you are in a location where both zones can be heard at once. There are ways around it, but it adds cost and complexity. It's a known issue to Yamaha (see their FAQ for the 3000), but I don't see anything for the 3030. Maybe it's been resolved, either with an audio delay for each zone, or just an improved design. I would try and get an answer for this.

What you want is doable, but it won't be plug and play.

 

[jotham]

Jotham

Thank you for your insight. I have considered along the lines of your recommendation. And is certainly my fallback scenario. The harmony smart hub is also on my research list. I respect the other posters to my thread but regretfully disagree with their assessment of my alleged poor planning. I am far from an av expert but am not a lazy consumer and Know there are apps to do everything I want and there are multiple 3 hdmi out receivers on market with 3-4 distribution zones. And I have prewired every area and. Component and Tv with all available or neccessary wiring w ability to run more cabling. I have been on the firing end at newbies on their first post too Hehe.

Like I said I am short control / power to a zone with current high end receivers. I have a space issue with this custom built in rack recessed into a wall and am trying to accomplish this with as few cable boxes blurays and receivers as possible. The 3hdmi receivers save me a cable box, and receivers around 2k can power 5.1 plus two audio zones with iphone and tablet control. The sonos amps come into play Bc how small and simple they are with app control. Here to discover if there's another secret or suggestion to my setup which I don't view as overly complex, but I am biased ~

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you are a newbie. I'm just a big fan of keeping things simple and consistent. I'm sure you are perfectly capable of making a single giant receiver do everything. What I was meaning to convey is my belief in 2 simple receivers (ideally from the same manufacturer) and a known quantity whole house audio system.

Here are the advantages that I see to this approach.

1. Redundancy. If your big massive receiver feeding three zones goes belly up (act of God, spilled drink, etc), you will lose all of your entertainment in one swoop. With multiple receivers and SONOS boxes, any single point of failure doesn't affect the whole.

2. Playing to their strengths. The big receiver companies do everything, but a solution like SONOS, does one thing only (and well), whole house audio. You won't have to worry about weird latency issues such as Nestor discussed because for the most part, SONOS will take care of that. Mind you, I'm not trying to be a SONOS shill, I don't even own one, just Squeezeboxes (similar concept), and even though people balk at the price for a Squeezebox, their functionality and reliability is amazing. I can play 5 zones in perfect sync across wireless and wired connections with no issues, or I can play 5 different audio streams. I assume that SONOS is similarly cool. Plus SONOS has had a touch interface longer than anyone including Squeezeboxes.

3. Cost. The bad-a$$ receivers run about 2 grand. Normal straightforward receivers are about total $1000 for your usage scenarios. This would leave $1000 for a SONOS setup.

4. Futzing. I have spent (and wasted), godawful amounts of time and money trying to get various components to work together with universal remotes all to achieve some sort of wife-acceptable system that newbies can use. It's not impossible but it's a major hassle to maintain as components change. I'm a professional computer programmer and I need my stuff to be idiot-proof because I'm usually the idiot. So, even though I *can* program and configure everything doesn't mean I *want* to program and configure everything. With a bad-a$$ recieiver you are going to have to buy a universal remote such as harmony just so a guest can start up a blu-ray without broadcasting the latest action flick to the entire neighborhood over your outdoor speakers that you accidentally left configured at full volume.

Regardless of which path you go, please come back and let us know the good and bad things. I learn all the time from other people trying out new and cool stuff!

luck,

Jotham