AVR distortions from entry level to top level models

Discussion in 'Amps, Pre-Pros & Receivers' started by PENG, Dec 17, 2015.

  1. PENG Audioholic Warlord

    PENG
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    Thanks Kurt, they are public info, I just put them together to save people time searching. Thanks to Tyhjarrpa too for putting them in one graph.
    PENG,
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  2. PENG Audioholic Warlord

    PENG
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    Me too, it is much better to study the graphs than just read the figures at 0.1 and 1%. Regarding the slopes, I share your observation but they do get exaggerated by the scales not being the same, making some appear to be much steeper than they really are relatively to others. The NAD had the most gentle slope, followed by the Anthem MRX700 but interestingly not the newer MRX710. The Denon 2313 has a good slope too, but overall nothing beats my Denon 4308,:D not even the T787 that cost more than twice as much.

    And I agree, big thanks to tyhjarrpa who spent a lot of time putting them all in one. A few of them such as the Denons, got shifted slightly to the left but still perfectly well for comparisons, just not for ranking but that is not my intention anyway.:D So again, thank you tyhjarrpa!
    PENG,
  3. highfigh Audioholic Warlord

    highfigh
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    I have seen the price list- the margins are huge, but it goes against my nature to sell things I don't believe in. The 2m audio cables with 72V battery box list for $6995.00 and all I can think of is trying to sell it half-heartedly and having a PO'd customer come back to return them and then go around telling everyone they know about the scam.

    Salesman- "Sorry, no returns on cables".
    Customer- "Why not?"
    Salesman- "They're used".
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  4. PENG Audioholic Warlord

    PENG
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    Understood, you have to at least believe that it is not a scam though they likely won't offer audible improvements. Then you can be honest about the whole thing and still sell to those who come and ask for them. As we all know, audiophiles can be die hard stubborn about certain fancy electronics including "high end" cables.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2015
    PENG,
  5. highfigh Audioholic Warlord

    highfigh
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    Honestly, I can't imagine how a $7K HDMI cable would change what I see and hear with what I have been using.

    The problem with companies like AQ, Munster, etc- they require opening orders that would choke a horse if someone wants to buy direct and if they buy from distributors, the added cost can be significant. I think one of my distributors sells AQ and another sells Munster, but I won't. I have never had anyone ask about these brands, so I don't see a reason to start carrying them. I worked for a place that sold AQ and I came to hate it when we were trying to finish a job at the end of the day and had to terminate their RG59x5. Coax is a piece of cake to terminate because the center wire is strong enough to remain where it's going but the AQ had a single 24ga center and it was too soft to have any stiffness, so it bent and that not only caused us to have to cut the rest to equal length and wasting cable, it wasted a bunch of ends and I was doing it the same way they showed in the training videos.
  6. KEW Audioholic Spartan

    KEW
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    I just revisited this thread and noticed the inconsistent relation between price and amp quality. Here we have a "lowly" 2000 series Denon clearly outperforming the amp section of Marantz's flagship receiver!
    This is especially significant because you would think that since the Marantz has nine powered channels (vs seven for the 2313) that it would have an added advantage when only asked to power 2 channels.

    Also wanted to bring this thread back up. It is too good to leave buried and needs to resurface on occasion! At a minimum, check posts 1 and 14!

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
    KEW,
  7. PENG Audioholic Warlord

    PENG
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    I noticed that one too. I ignored it because it was kind of a one off type, if I remember right, even the SN ratio, cross talk figures were not great either. There could have been some errors made during the test, you never know. I tried to find other lab measurements for it but no luck.
    PENG,
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  8. PENG Audioholic Warlord

    PENG
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    I also vaguely remember someone posted his dissatisfaction with his 231X when compared to his NAD or something like that, I thought it must be Placebo effects at work at the time after seeing the superb measurements of the 2313CI.
    PENG,
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  9. Pogre Senior Audioholic

    Pogre
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    I read this entire thread and it was fascinating. I've been learning a lot today because of you. Thanks for the bump!

    7k for HDMI cables were discussed briefly. Kudos to highfigh for having some integrity. How can someone possibly justify those prices?!? Do the sum of all the parts really cost that much? Are the cables spun from gold? I read through that pdf and some of it is definitely over my head, but even to me it looks like hooey.
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  10. KEW Audioholic Spartan

    KEW
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    To make sure I interpret you correctly, are you are referring to the 7008, correct?
    KEW,
  11. highfigh Audioholic Warlord

    highfigh
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    They'd have to get me pretty liquored up to get me to sell their stuff. I bought the same kind of batteries for the keyless entry on my van at Menard's for a few bucks/pair. I still can't see how this could work if the batteries aren't "high-end". :D

    The part that amazes me is their comment about voltage on the wire- voltage without a load termination doesn't do anything and without those, no current flows. Battery storage is potential energy- it's there when needed, but when it's not, it doesn't do anything.
  12. vsound5150 Audioholic

    vsound5150
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    Interesting thread, can someone explain why the Denon avr-4308ci @ 140W 8 ohms never gets close to 0.05% THD as noted in the their specs.? It stays flat at 0.002% past 150W, maybe I should have bought this AVR how good it is.
  13. KEW Audioholic Spartan

    KEW
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    D&M seems to be pretty conservative in general; however, there are some cases where they deliberately down rate a component.
    For example the amp section of the SR-6001 and the SR-7001 were independently measured as identical, but the SR-6001 was rated at 10 Watts less. From a production standpoint, it was less costly to mass produce the SR-7001 amp and use it in the SR-6001 than to produce a slightly weaker amp design. From a marketing stand point, they wanted the more expensive SR-7001 to look like a better amp section than the SR-6001. i don't know if this is still true of the 6000 vs 7000 series.

    Additionally, it is unclear if the S&V measurements are full bandwidth (as specified by Denon) or only at 1kHz. Here is their description of their measurement technique:
    http://www.soundandvision.com/bootcamp/53#WXCmUVVFVmzpLq8k.97
    Based on the following blurb, I would assume 1kHz unless someone corrects me:
    Since they refer to the signal as a sine wave, I would infer a single frequency, but I am getting out of my comfort zone and hope someone like @PENG can confirm or correct me.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
    KEW,
  14. PENG Audioholic Warlord

    PENG
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    Correct, the measurements were still very good but I expected better.
    PENG,
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  15. PENG Audioholic Warlord

    PENG
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    I think you are right but I have read enough reviews with lab measurements to know for mid range avr and amps, 1k or 20-20k makes little difference in most cases. For lower end products, the difference could be much more significant.
    PENG,
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  16. Halon451 Audioholic Samurai

    Halon451
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    Great thread and very informative, PENG. Highly relevant to my current dilemma as well. I'm learning everything I never knew I needed to know about this stuff. :) I just looked up how THD is measured in the lab, it's making some things fall much more into focus for me.

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