Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 Tweeter Issue

[KEW]

It will be interesting to see what Ascend has to say on Monday.
Of course, Ascend will always maintain that their tweeter is unique...they are committed to that dialogue. The question is whether they will give any specifics on what their customizations are, or address the question of how well the stock SEAS driver would work in their speaker.

One obvious "customization" is changing the part number from
29TFF/W H1318-06
to
29TFF/W H1477-06
That means little as it is common to have separate part numbers for major customers. This is useful for contractual obligations. For example, SEAS is probably obligated to maintain a certain level of inventory that belongs to Ascend and Ascend would be obligated to buy the "on-hand" inventory if they decided to discontinue use of this tweeter. This would indeed "improve performance"... of the inventory tracking system!

I would tend to agree with TLSGuy on this one, I have a hard time believing Dave F is going to find any significant way to improve SEAS driver performance. Dave is a smart guy, but driver design is a mature science. The parameters are known, and SEAS would know them all. At this point, breakthroughs come in the form of improved materials and manufacturing tolerances & techniques.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have no idea on how the custom surround or other tweaks may effect the parameters. I'm just trying to learn something here....

You know this Dave chap is a BS artist, when he talks about eliminating reflections from the flush mounted magnet assembly screws. Give me a break!

If that tweeter was in fact better than stock, I can assure you that SEAS would have done the modifications to the entire range.

So most likely the cosmetic changes make absolutely no difference to the sound of the tweeter, but they can charge Dave a premium and make more profit.

There is a small possibility that the mods, make the tweeter worse.

In any event Seth can be confident that he can buy the tweeter from the cheapest source and not pay a premium to Ascend.

 

[lovinthehd]

It will be interesting to see what Ascend has to say on Monday.
Of course, Ascend will always maintain that their tweeter is unique...they are committed to that dialogue. The question is whether they will give any specifics on what their customizations are, or address the question of how well the stock SEAS driver would work in their speaker.

One obvious "customization" is changing the part number from
29TFF/W H1318-06
to
29TFF/W H1477-06
That means little as it is common to have separate part numbers for major customers. This is useful for contractual obligations. For example, SEAS is probably obligated to maintain a certain level of inventory that belongs to Ascend and Ascend would be obligated to buy the "on-hand" inventory if they decided to discontinue use of this tweeter. This would indeed "improve performance"... of the inventory tracking system!

I would tend to agree with TLSGuy on this one, I have a hard time believing Dave F is going to find any significant way to improve SEAS driver performance. Dave is a smart guy, but driver design is a mature science. The parameters are known, and SEAS would know them all. At this point, breakthroughs come in the form of improved materials and manufacturing tolerances & techniques.

I tend to agree with you and TLS but like to see how Ascend deals with it.

You know this Dave chap is a BS artist, when he talks about eliminating reflections from the flush mounted magnet assembly screws. Give me a break!

If that tweeter was in fact better than stock, I can assure you that SEAS would have done the modifications to the entire range.

So most likely the cosmetic changes make absolutely no difference to the sound of the tweeter, but they can charge Dave a premium and make more profit.

There is a small possibility that the mods, make the tweeter worse.

In any event Seth can be confident that he can buy the tweeter from the cheapest source and not pay a premium to Ascend.

You might be right, you might not.

Marketing has a lot of bs inherently, particularly in audio; I think Dave certainly has a bit of "marketing" in his descriptions. I would give him credit as he avoided putting stupid bi-wiring terminals on his Sierra-1 but did succumb with the Sierra Tower...there are certain expectations out there in speaker marketing world.

Not even sure Madisound has a better price at this point.

Still want to know which way Seth is leaning as well as what Dave may or may not have to say. The Ascend product generally is quite good and a good value, BS or no.

 

[KEW]

You know this Dave chap is a BS artist, when he talks about eliminating reflections from the flush mounted magnet assembly screws. Give me a break!

Actually, that talking point came from SEAS:

Two part front plate with smooth, slightly elliptical wave guide made from elastomer provide excellent high frequency response and dispersion. The wave guide conceals (and thus eliminates acoustic effects from) the magnet system screws.

From their info sheet:
http://www.seas.no/images/stories/prestige/pdfdatasheet/h1318_29tff_w_datasheet.pdf

 

[KEW]

Marketing has a lot of bs inherently, particularly in audio; I think Dave certainly has a bit of "marketing" in his descriptions. I would give him credit as he avoided putting stupid bi-wiring terminals on his Sierra-1 but did succumb with the Sierra Tower...there are certain expectations out there in speaker marketing world.

The Ascend product generally is quite good and a good value, BS or no.

I agree that it is unfortunate that it is the best business practice to cater to the lowest common denominator. I can't fault Dave for that, dual terminals are pretty cheap if you believe it will cost a couple of sales. Specifying a break-in period (I don't know if Ascend does) reduces returns significantly as people get used to a different sound (or just because people lose momentum on making a return - it is easier to return immediately than wait a week or two - not so much logically, but psychologically).

I agree that Dave is one of the guys who knows how to get what he wants out of speakers via crossover design.

I don't fault him for any aspect of what he is doing. I think he is taking a pragmatic approach to teh realities of his business, while we can afford to be idealistic about marketing BS, etc.

 

[Seth=L]

I'm going to contact Ascend tomorrow and see what they say then go from there. I tend to agree with TLS Guy on most things as well, although he's many echelons above my level of understanding. As of this moment I lean toward the Madisound option.

 

[Beave]

...
Marketing has a lot of bs inherently, particularly in audio; I think Dave certainly has a bit of "marketing" in his descriptions. I would give him credit as he avoided putting stupid bi-wiring terminals on his Sierra-1 but did succumb with the Sierra Tower...there are certain expectations out there in speaker marketing world.

As far as I know, the stock towers do not have bi-wiring terminals; but it is an option if customers request it. My towers don't have them.

 

[lovinthehd]

As far as I know, the stock towers do not have bi-wiring terminals; but it is an option if customers request it. My towers don't have them.

Thanks, thought I had read they had decided to make them stock somewhere, maybe it was just that for a change they were available.....

 

[slipperybidness]

I'm going to contact Ascend tomorrow and see what they say then go from there. I tend to agree with TLS Guy on most things as well, although he's many echelons above my level of understanding. As of this moment I lean toward the Madisound option.

I'll just throw it out there, it isn't cheap, but there is an upgrade kit available to convert the S1 to the S2
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AD&Product_Code=7SR2UPG

 

[davef]

I'll probably do that tomorrow or Monday.

In the meantime. Is there something special about the tweeter they have in their stock Sierra 1, or is it just a standard SEAS tweeter like this one.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-prestige-29tff/w-h1318-fabric-dome/

Hey Seth,

Sorry to hear about the potentially bad tweeter. It has been at least 11 years since I evaluated this tweeter in stock form so I honestly don't know how well the retail unit will perform in this application. We were one of the first companies to evaluate this tweeter for mass production purposes and, at that time, we made some changes to it from the planned retail version. One of these changes was made to reduce the overall moving mass.

Contrary to a rather rude post in this thread, the units we purchase are not the retail version of this tweeter but as far as how the stock unit will perform - I honestly do not know without picking one up myself and evaluating it. We started using this tweeter before the retail version was released so I really don't know how the final stock version turned out or what changes have been made since. Additionally, about 2-3 yrs ago we worked with SEAS on making changes to the elastomer waveguide insert (changing the material) which we eventually approved for our units (both our Sierra-1 tweeter and our NrT version) - but I also do not know if this change carried over to the retail units.

If you purchase the retail unit, I'd be happy to evaluate it for you but I don't believe we charge too much more for ours and the cost of shipping the stock unit to us and back will certainly end up costing you more overall.

Hope this helps!

 

[davef]

You know this Dave chap is a BS artist, when he talks about eliminating reflections from the flush mounted magnet assembly screws. Give me a break!

If that tweeter was in fact better than stock, I can assure you that SEAS would have done the modifications to the entire range.

So most likely the cosmetic changes make absolutely no difference to the sound of the tweeter, but they can charge Dave a premium and make more profit.

There is a small possibility that the mods, make the tweeter worse.

In any event Seth can be confident that he can buy the tweeter from the cheapest source and not pay a premium to Ascend.

If you have an issue with how we marketed the features of this tweeter, take it up with SEAS directly - it is their marketing copy. Better yet, Claus (SEAS's CTO) will be at my office this Wednesday, I am quite sure he would be willing to talk with you directly if you wanted to arrange a time to call us. I can also assure you that he would be more than happy to confirm everything you are attempting to call me out on.

If that tweeter was in fact better than stock, I can assure you that SEAS would have done the modifications to the entire range.

That is not how a company like SEAS operates. They generally design their retail units to perform well in many different types of installations with good performance using a variety of different crossover points and slopes. Since our performance parameters were very specific, we found a few areas where we could improve the performance of the then planned retail version for our specific application. Would our version of this tweeter perform "better" than the stock unit for someone else's application? Maybe yes, maybe no... As I know you well know - it depends on the specific application.

So most likely the cosmetic changes make absolutely no difference to the sound of the tweeter, but they can charge Dave a premium and make more profit.

We made no cosmetic changes to the tweeter, but as far as what we pay for this tweeter compared to the standard version, all I know is what our cost is as I don't know what our price would be for the standard version. If I had to guess, it would be similar between the two due to the volumes we purchase these in.

There is a small possibility that the mods, make the tweeter worse.

Going back to what I posted previously, depends on the application itself.

In any event Seth can be confident that he can buy the tweeter from the cheapest source and not pay a premium to Ascend

I have no issue with this statement, although I really don't think we charge much of a premium compared to the one listed at Madisound. We don't look at repairs as a profit center. The Madisound version might sound just fine to Seth, only Seth can determine that - but it is not the exact same tweeter.

I do agree with one item you stated, this is indeed an excellent tweeter - both the original units I evaluated and our version.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for the reply. I still highly doubt that the difference will be audible if he buys from you or another vendor. They are a very decent high value tweeter.

 

[davef]

Thanks for the reply. I still highly doubt that the difference will be audible if he buys from you or another vendor. They are a very decent high value tweeter.

Yep, as I stated - he may or may not hear a difference. One possible critical issue is that since we lowered moving mass, overall efficiency of our version is likely slightly higher than the retail unit but I can't give specific comparisons to the retail version since it has been so very long since I did our comparisons - and I never evaluated the final retail version.

This thread has got me curious though. I might just order a stock unit to test but it will likely be months before I get around to it and Seth should certainly not wait that long. Based on the production date of his tweeter - it is ten years old.

I believe we are charging only $18 more than Madisound's version with similar shipping prices - Seth will have to determine if that small premium is worth it or not to have the correct version and our support with the purchase and installation.

 

[Ricardojoa]

For 18 bucks more i will give the money to Dave for a proper tweeter replacement.
Keep in mind, Dave have relationship with other manufacturers such as raal, seas, tang bang for custom drivers. You dont need a better driver. You need a driver suitable for your application.

 

[Seth=L]

Yep, as I stated - he may or may not hear a difference. One possible critical issue is that since we lowered moving mass, overall efficiency of our version is likely slightly higher than the retail unit but I can't give specific comparisons to the retail version since it has been so very long since I did our comparisons - and I never evaluated the final retail version.

This thread has got me curious though. I might just order a stock unit to test but it will likely be months before I get around to it and Seth should certainly not wait that long. Based on the production date of his tweeter - it is ten years old.

I believe we are charging only $18 more than Madisound's version with similar shipping prices - Seth will have to determine if that small premium is worth it or not to have the correct version and our support with the purchase and installation.

Hello Dave. As you may have guessed that was me calling today. Thank you for reaching out through the forum. The cabinets are in rough condition and there's a strong possibility they have been dropped, so it's possible there's a slight deviation on the motor for the tweeter, enough to cause a "rub" certainly. I'll evaluate both speakers carefully with program I know to cause the anomaly I've described to make sure that they aren't both doing it. I'll report back with my findings.

I was a bit short with, Deandra? I am terrible remembering names. Not because I wasn't getting the response I wanted but because I was at work and had customers about the floor both times she called.

 

[Seth=L]

That did not take long. It's definitely just the one tweeter. Swapped speakers again to make sure it wasn't a channel issue, the problem moved with the speaker. I gently massaged the tweeter around the surround and eventually the noise stopped, but I'm sure it will return. Now to determine if it's time to bite the bullet and get a new tweeter or perhaps a pair.

Edit: as I was typing this the problem came back. It's definitely not going to be fixed by just me playing with it.

 

[KEW]

Yep, as I stated - he may or may not hear a difference. One possible critical issue is that since we lowered moving mass, overall efficiency of our version is likely slightly higher than the retail unit but I can't give specific comparisons to the retail version since it has been so very long since I did our comparisons - and I never evaluated the final retail version.

Why are you being so vague? Where did the weight reduction come from? How much reduction percentage-wise?
Any other substantive changes?

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Why are you being so vague? Where did the weight reduction come from? How much reduction percentage-wise?
Any other substantive changes?

I'm not sure what you were expecting from Dave. It could be a slight variation in the coating material on the dome, or a small change in the composition of the dome, or whatever, but what difference does it make? And modifications like that are properly considered proprietary information.

 

[Theophile]

I'm not sure what you were expecting from Dave. It could be a slight variation in the coating material on the dome, or a small change in the composition of the dome, or whatever, but what difference does it make? And modifications like that are properly considered proprietary information.

Agree with Dennis. Whatever arrangement Dave makes for "custom component drivers" with SEAS, RAAL, etc., are proprietary to Ascend Acoustics. If you want to know the results to his driver customization successes, LISTEN to a Sierra 1, Sierra 2, RAAL Tower or the newest entry, the LUNA in a 2.1 to 5.2+ setup with your favorite music...be ready to be Amazed!