Are You An Audiophile? Ha! Not according to this article...

Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
5. A clap test prior to its reconstruction before it had carpeting was impressively resonant.
I was in a hurry, but, did you say you got tested for the clap when working on your room?
While not an audiophile problem, I hear penicillin fixes that kind of room correction problem.:)
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
100% agree on the price. Especially with headphones. When it comes to speakers, some of the most expensive and exotic designs are nothing more than hype. Modern technology and manufacturing had enabled those with the most limited budgets to enjoy very high quality systems for a low price. There are really good speakers in the under $500 range that could outperform speakers costing 4x as much. Think back to the infinity primus series. Obviously, all budget speakers will require cost cutting measures, but it's where that cost cut comes from that determines the quality. Likewise, a pair of speakers costing 20k may have exotic wood veneers, which add 1000s to the price tag, but nothing to the sound quality.

Headphones are another story. Looking at response graphs and distortion measurements of headphones on headroom, one will quickly find the pricier "audiophile grade" headphones perform much worse than a pair of well designed studio headphones. I'm fairly certain several companies will also use the exact same components for more expensive models, yet charge a higher price, Grado comes to mind. Several of their headphones use identical drivers, and display identical frequency response curves, but might have bigger ear cups, nicer wood, etc.

Expensive amplifiers, marketed with brochures filled with useless terminology, expensive DACs, or worse, "magic" USB cables to connect them, are everywhere.

With modern solid state amps, and digital recording/playback mediums, the major determining factor in sound quality is the speakers themselves. The cheapest laptop DAC paired with the lousiest op-amp will sound exactly the same so long as it has an acceptable SNR and it isn't driven into distortion.

Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk
Headphones...from someone that spent a month or so research this...sound quality from a pair of $2,000 Sennhisers to a $500 pair is not that much different, for a person that's really into music via headphones, comfort is a big feature.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
At first, that article seemed dumb, but enough AHers have responded to make it more fun. Here are my responses:
  1. My headphones are cheap Sennheiser HD570, cost under $100. I haven’t used them in years.

  2. I do not subscribe to Tidal, or any other audio streaming service.

  3. I not only believe that expensive cables do not make a difference, I know that expensive cable cannot make a difference. As long as cables are 'good enough', the rest of the sound system will sound as good as the speakers allow. For cables, 'good enough' costs a lot less than many are led to believe.

  4. I haven’t bought vinyl since the 1980s. I do own LPs, and on rare occasions, I play them. Does vinyl sound better than CDs? Pppphhh :p!

  5. I am aware of the acoustics of a room, buy I don’t make any effort to modify my room’s acoustics. I could be lucky, or blissfully ignorant, in that regard.

  6. I do care about audio qualities of recordings, but I also care about the music itself.

  7. Yes, my speakers have a place of honor (both acoustic & visual) in my family room.

  8. Yes, I know what slew rate means, but I’ve never worried about it in any audio system I’ve owned.

  9. I definitely do not spend hours, or minutes, discussing bitrates with friends, or strangers on the internet.

  10. I think I do own several LPs that were pressed in England or Europe. I bought them in the 1970s when I was stationed in Italy in the navy.

  11. And finally (yes – my responses go to 11 :D), I have had people I've never previously met in person come to my house to hear my speakers.
 
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Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
At first, that article seemed dumb,

  1. Yes, my speakers have a place of honor (both acoustic & visual) in my family room.

  2. And finally (yes – my responses go to 11 :D), I have had people I've never met in person come to my house to hear my speakers.
Swerd:
Your initial assessment that the article was "dumb" is highly accurate. It was dumb, squared. It was so dumb, it was fun to respond to and kick around. I had a great time kicking it around.

Thanks in part to you, I can answer that my speakers do have a place of honor. It aint in the front room, but , my Songtowers have THEIR OWN ROOM. I am still impressed with them every single time I listen to them.

And yesterday, Pogre came over to my little audio room and auditioned the Songtowers and I made the journey to his home and listened to his Ultras (and gigantic HSU subs). It was a fun day. Perhaps it is an audio trait of Songtower owners that people are drawn to come and listen.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks in part to you, I can answer that my speakers do have a place of honor. It aint in the front room, but , my Songtowers have THEIR OWN ROOM. I am still impressed with them every single time I listen to them.
You had pretty much already decided for yourself. I was glad to give you my 2 cents. And then you heard them at that lawyer's home. That got you over the barrier of ordering something you hadn't previously known about. Still, I'm really glad to know you actually like them :).
And yesterday, Pogre came over to my little audio room and auditioned the Songtowers and I made the journey to his home and listened to his Ultras (and gigantic HSU subs). It was a fun day. Perhaps it is an audio trait of Songtower owners that people are drawn to come and listen.
If I remember correctly, I once heard SVS Ultras at an audio show several years ago. I liked them. In a world without Salk speakers, I could live with them :rolleyes:.

As usual for hotel audio shows, the rooms had their acoustic quirks and problems. It was on a Sunday afternoon (day 3 of the show), and by that time the SVS people had a chance to set up their speakers to sound as good as possible. That included knowing what music to avoid.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
And then you heard them at that lawyer's home. That got you over the barrier of ordering something you hadn't previously known about. Still, I'm really glad to know you actually like them :).
If I remember correctly, I once heard SVS Ultras at an audio show several years ago. I liked them. In a
Swerd,

Don't underestimate your 2 cents worth. Many veterans on this forum have probably forgotten what it feels like to "not know" the answer to an audio puzzle. As a newb, and as someone that really wanted to upgrade my sound and not just my equipment logos, it was frustrating having dozens of choices and no clear path to making a decision. Having reasonable voices making substantiated observations was helpful. I was able to take members ideas and recommendations and make a short list. That was comforting. All I had to do was pick my favorite at that point. Without knowing about the Salk owners willingness to demo their stuff, I most assuredly would not have spent the money on a blind buy. That was part of your 2 cents: making sure I knew about it. Plus, your own ownership experience was pretty reassuring.

Not knowing is one of the challenges new visitors to the forum face. Being patient enough to help them rather than lecture them is a challenge the long time members face.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
If I remember correctly, I once heard SVS Ultras at an audio show several years ago. I liked them. In a world without Salk speakers, I could live with them :rolleyes:.

As usual for hotel audio shows, the rooms had their acoustic quirks and problems. It was on a Sunday afternoon (day 3 of the show), and by that time the SVS people had a chance to set up their speakers to sound as good as possible. That included knowing what music to avoid.
They had wine too :D It was one of the better rooms at the show, in large part because most of the other vendors were focused on audiophile hocus pocus.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
What if you drive to someone's house you've never met in person, then have them over to your house just to listen to a sound system and call it "fun"?
Normally I would just say you need a better cover but you got to hear the ST's and BN got to hear the Ultras? Well ... I think I'm jealous. I haven't done that in too long ... and Richard has new Salks. Once in a while I get to visit some Sig 8's too. The closest audio fix would either be Maine or New York. New York is a twofer though. I'm a spin some vinyl for a quick fix.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
1st Question: Do you own a pair of headphones costing more than $200 bucks.
The earbuds I listen on mostly cost me $12. I like good phones but have better things to do with my $$

2nd Question: Do you subscribe to Tidal?
No.

3rd Question: Do you believe expensive cables make a difference?
Yes they make a difference, but not to the audio.

4th Question: Do you still buy vinyl
I OWN vinyl, I no longer buy it.

6th Question: Do you care more about audio quality than the music you listen to ?
What good is quality if the music sucks?

8th Question: Do you know what "slew rate" is?
KILL RATIO :D
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Normally I would just say you need a better cover but you got to hear the ST's and BN got to hear the Ultras? Well ... I think I'm jealous. I haven't done that in too long ... and Richard has new Salks. Once in a while I get to visit some Sig 8's too. The closest audio fix would either be Maine or New York. New York is a twofer though. I'm a spin some vinyl for a quick fix.
It really was a lot of fun. Very cool to get to listen to something not from BB's magnolia room. Especially speakers I've read so much about. Buck is a very good host and has a beautiful home. We're gonna have to do it again.

I did crank the Ultras up to reference for a minute so he could feel the power. It feels like a concert in my living room. The Salks were very impressive and that was my first time listening nearfield with a sub. First I didn't realize he had one, then he but on some bass and I was like, "okay, you've got a sub in here somewhere... where's it at?". It was firing right into the back of my seat and I couldn't locate it. Very cool. Makes me think a little harder about getting a third sub...
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
Reading all about these in home member demos makes me want to see if anyone else is in the North NJ/NYC area! :)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I've had a number of people to my place too. Ended up buying my CAOW1s off one of them :)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I've had a number of people to my place too. Ended up buying my CA0W1s off one of them :)
I think I've asked you before, where are you from? I hear goon squad operates mainly on the west coast... :p
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
It really was a lot of fun. "okay, you've got a sub in here somewhere... where's it at?". It was firing right into the back of my seat and I couldn't locate it. Very cool. Makes me think a little harder about getting a third sub...
Any listening session that ends with the participants wanting to buy more hardware is time well spent.
I have subwoofer envy after seeing Pogres twins. Pogre is thinking of new ways to deploy a new, 3rd sub.
All in all, a smashing success.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
@2channel lover If you're referring to the HD800s, that's correct. The 800s are actually a lot more inaccurate than the 600s, and the 600s are actually a bit muted on the treble. The HD 598 has a near perfect response graph, and costs less than $200.



Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I think if you engage in doing that, you get called "friends". :)
I remember a time when it was a thing to go to "friends" house just to listen to music and compare systems and the one with the best system wasn't always the place to be. In my time, music was a pretty big social event that was practiced weekly, or even daily to many of us die-hards. Every time a new popular album came out for sure. We'd even travel from house to house with the record if we were the first to get it before anyone else did with many listening sessions going into the wee hours or even the next day on weekends.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
100% agree on the price. Especially with headphones. When it comes to speakers, some of the most expensive and exotic designs are nothing more than hype. Modern technology and manufacturing had enabled those with the most limited budgets to enjoy very high quality systems for a low price. There are really good speakers in the under $500 range that could outperform speakers costing 4x as much. Think back to the infinity primus series. Obviously, all budget speakers will require cost cutting measures, but it's where that cost cut comes from that determines the quality. Likewise, a pair of speakers costing 20k may have exotic wood veneers, which add 1000s to the price tag, but nothing to the sound quality.

Headphones are another story. Looking at response graphs and distortion measurements of headphones on headroom, one will quickly find the pricier "audiophile grade" headphones perform much worse than a pair of well designed studio headphones. I'm fairly certain several companies will also use the exact same components for more expensive models, yet charge a higher price, Grado comes to mind. Several of their headphones use identical drivers, and display identical frequency response curves, but might have bigger ear cups, nicer wood, etc.

Expensive amplifiers, marketed with brochures filled with useless terminology, expensive DACs, or worse, "magic" USB cables to connect them, are everywhere.

With modern solid state amps, and digital recording/playback mediums, the major determining factor in sound quality is the speakers themselves. The cheapest laptop DAC paired with the lousiest op-amp will sound exactly the same so long as it has an acceptable SNR and it isn't driven into distortion.

Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk
Broadly agree except the part about "the most expensive and exotic designs are nothing more than hype". It doesn't work in economics*, but it does work for loudspeaker technology, those exotic designs do trickle down to lower tier models, so that eventually you do find $500 speakers that perform extremely well.**

You can't evaluate headphones based on response graphs ... distortion, maybe. Nobody knows what the ideal frequency response of a headphone should be ... not even the well established manufacturers like Sennheiser, AKG, Harmon group companies, Beyer Dynamic, etc. The driver-to-eardrum interface is more complex than the loudspeaker-room interface, and is more variable listener-to-listener than your typical speaker-to-room (they're mostly boxes, for one. Major dimension relationships can be assumed right there; not so with millions of unique ears). You even have an inner ear canal that adds 3rd harmonic distortion to everything you hear.

You have to wear them and see what you think. Like loudspeakers, headphone technology trickles down well, and has had incredible attention in the last decade, so the $200 pair of today bears no resemblance to the $200 pair of 2007. We win, in the end, which is what we want, right? ***

*Economics Major

** The one thing you don't get with inexpensive speakers is much in the way of cabinet resonance control; a lot of the options are too expensive at that price point, especially since every brace adds weight, which weighs heavily in the cost to move boxes across the country or between countries. Shipping in an inexpensive speaker can be more than 50% of the wholesale cost. Drivers and crossovers (to an extent) do make it into these products, however.

*** Although not a strict rule, it's useful enough to be worth remembering. Audio is about subtle improvements ... after all a $80 BluTooth speaker doesn't sound terrible. You can get useful sound with a pair of $3 TV speakers and a $10 chipamp, which is what you find in most TVs, after all. But, for High Sound Quality, each subtle incremental improvement probably doubles the cost. So when you get to improving a $2000 component, you probably have to spend $4000. Which gets pretty expensive at the top tier of devices.
 
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MR.MAGOO

MR.MAGOO

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm sure my one Radio Shack HDMI cable is really deteriorating my entire sound system, if not the entire electrical system in the home. :p
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Broadly agree except the part about "the most expensive and exotic designs are nothing more than hype". It doesn't work in economics*, but it does work for loudspeaker technology, those exotic designs do trickle down to lower tier models, so that eventually you do find $500 speakers that perform extremely well.**

You can't evaluate headphones based on response graphs ... distortion, maybe. Nobody knows what the ideal frequency response of a headphone should be ... not even the well established manufacturers like Sennheiser, AKG, Harmon group companies, Beyer Dynamic, etc. The driver-to-eardrum interface is more complex than the loudspeaker-room interface, and is more variable listener-to-listener than your typical speaker-to-room (they're mostly boxes, for one. Major dimension relationships can be assumed right there; not so with millions of unique ears). You even have an inner ear canal that adds 3rd harmonic distortion to everything you hear.
There is a lot here I don't agree with. You can evaluate headphones based on graphs, and this has been demonstrated in controlled testing, especially by Harman's research group led by Sean Olive and Todd Welti. This study is evidence of that. Here is a summary of that paper, and here is a more thorough explanation of the research if you don't feel like buying that paper. If you couldn't evaluate headphones based on frequency response, then there would be no preferred target curve at all, but there unquestionably is, and a heavy preference at that. The headphone driver to ear drum interface is, if anything, less complex because there is no room acoustics involved. The loudspeaker to ear drum is more complex because it is less direct, there is an additional layer of acoustics involved.

I also only half agree with the idea that exotic designs trickle down to lower models. It depends on what models and what speaker manufacturer. Some manufacturers use ridiculous ideas to design and sell their speakers, and anything trickled down from that doesn't help anything. Sometimes you do see good design trickled down to lower lines, for example the image control waveguide from JBL's M2 monitor making its horn geometry way down to lower LSR lines.
 
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