Aperion Verus Grand and Ascend Sierra Tower

[cschang]

So your point is that DBT will not remove either bias?

One bias is that they are significantly different. One bias is that that are not significantly different?

You have a point. I mean people will go into any study with their own ideas based on their experiences.

No, my point is that you can remove only one of the biases with a DBT.

One bias is they are noticeably difference, and the other is they are not.

It is easy to remove the bias of that being noticeably different with a DBT. Blindfold the listener, and see if he can hear a difference. Sight of the tweeter triggers the bias.

But how do you remove the bias that they are not noticeably different? With this bias, blinded or not, your mind will just say you don't hear a difference....being blinded makes no difference with the bias. What triggers the bias? How do you remove the trigger.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No, my point is that you can remove only one of the biases with a DBT.

One bias is they are noticeably difference, and the other is they are not.

It is easy to remove the bias of that being noticeably different with a DBT. Blindfold the listener, and see if he can hear a difference. Sight of the tweeter triggers the bias.

If you are biased into thinking they are noticeably different, you will always say they sound different no matter what.

It's very easy to say "Oh, yeah, there's a big difference."

You have to level match & remove the bass from the equation using subs. You have to perform the same test 10 times. And if you can blindly identify which speaker is which 100% of the time, then you have proven that you could tell the difference. If you have 3 speakers, then I think testing just 3 times would suffice.

With that being said, I don't really care so much and I'm not trying to make a big deal. Really. This is just a little no-big-deal debate.

Who the heck jump-started this dead thread anyway?

 

[cschang]

If you are biased into thinking they are noticeably different, you will always say they sound different no matter what.

It's very easy to say "Oh, yeah, there's a big difference."

You have to level match & remove the bass from the equation using subs. You have to perform the same test 10 times. And if you can blindly identify which speaker is which 100% of the time, then you have proven that you could tell the difference. If you have 3 speakers, then I think testing just 3 times would suffice.

With that being said, I don't really care so much and I'm not trying to make a big deal. Really. This is just a little no-big-deal debate.

Who the heck jump-started this dead thread anyway?

But that is what DBT is all about...you can put the person in front of the same tweeter/speaker twice. If he says they sound different, then you know something is wrong.

In your bias, how do you do that if the person just says everything sounds the same?

It is a fun little debate ...but you are not answering my question. What kind of test would remove your bias (they all sound the same)?

On a different note, I was just told this evening that Ascend has sold more RAAL tweeters (all models combined) than any other manufacturer in the last year.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But that is what DBT is all about...you can put the person in front of the same tweeter/speaker twice. If he says they sound different, then you know something is wrong.

In your bias, how do you do that if the person just says everything sounds the same?

It is a fun little debate ...but you are not answering my question. What kind of test would remove your bias (they all sound the same)?

On a different note, I was just told this evening that Ascend has sold more RAAL tweeters (all models combined) than any other manufacturer in the last year.

Sure, if you compare the same exact speaker and the subject says there is a difference, then it proves he is biased.

But I don't think the test should ever be about YES or NO or Difference or NO Difference. It should be about whether you can prove that you are able to tell which one is the RAAL. If you cannot tell which one is the RAAL, then there is no difference.

 

[cschang]

But I don't think the test should ever be about YES or NO or Difference or NO Difference. It should be about whether you can prove that you are able to tell which one is the RAAL. If you cannot tell which one is the RAAL, then there is no difference.

I don't think that makes sense.

And you still haven't answered my question.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't think that makes sense.

And you still haven't answered my question.

My answer to your question is, "I don't know."

My point is, if you cannot tell me which one is the RAAL in a blinded test among 4 different speakers (1 RAAL & 3 domes) then why would you pay the extra money for the RAAL?

 

[cschang]

My answer to your question is, "I don't know."

My point is, if you cannot tell me which one is the RAAL in a blinded test among 4 different speakers (1 RAAL & 3 domes) then why would you pay the extra money for the RAAL?

I guess I don't understand the point of your argument. There isn't one speaker that is available with 4 different tweeters.

If I have two identical speakers...ie Songtower with dome and Songtower with RAAL, or Sierra Tower with NrT or Sierra Tower with RAAL, and I like the speakers with the RAAL tweet....what's the big deal?

If I was auditioning 4 different speakers...I would not be basing my choice only on what tweeter was used, or only on how the highs sounded.

Now, if you are saying that I (or anyone) could not pick out the RAAL tweeter out of 4 otherwise non-identical speakers without a RAAL, I think that would be an interesting challenge. What's your wager?

 

[Steve81]

What kind of test would remove your bias (they all sound the same)?

I guess the first question you have to ask is whether the subject being tested is hostile or not. If he is hostile, you can potentially catch him with some ringers that would undoubtedly be expected to sound different, and toss his results.

If the subject isn't hostile, i.e. they actually try to listen and give an honest assessment, then their opinion that all good tweeters sound alike shouldn't make any real difference.

 

[cschang]

I guess the first question you have to ask is whether the subject being tested is hostile or not. If he is hostile, you can potentially catch him with some ringers that would undoubtedly be expected to sound different, and toss his results.

If the subject isn't hostile, i.e. they actually try to listen and give an honest assessment, then their opinion that all good tweeters sound alike shouldn't make any real difference.

Yeah...that helps, but hostile or not, it doesn't remove bias. I don't think ADTG is hostile.

 

[Steve81]

Yeah...that helps, but hostile or not, it doesn't remove bias. I don't think ADTG is hostile.

If he's not considered hostile, then it doesn't make much difference as far as I can tell. Whether his hearing is in some way impaired, or that he simply doesn't listen for the same things that another person might, as long as he's giving an honest assessment, that's what counts. Of course, one popular example where people had a bias that the items being tested would all sound the same (within reasonable bounds) was the famous Stereo Review amplifier DBT. It's certainly received its share of criticism over the years, but I've never heard of anyone saying it wasn't fair because the "non-believers" were biased at the outset.

 

[cschang]

If he's not considered hostile, then it doesn't make much difference as far as I can tell. Whether his hearing is in some way impaired, or that he simply doesn't listen for the same things that another person might, as long as he's giving an honest assessment, that's what counts. Of course, one popular example where people had a bias that the items being tested would all sound the same (within reasonable bounds) was the famous Stereo Review amplifier DBT. It's certainly received its share of criticism over the years, but I've never heard of anyone saying it wasn't fair because the "non-believers" were biased at the outset.

Ahh...interesting. I didn't realize in that DBT that those biased to "they all sound the same" were in the test.

 

[Steve81]

Ahh...interesting. I didn't realize in that DBT that those biased to "they all sound the same" were in the test.

It was mixed company to try and ensure that neither the believers nor the skeptics would say the test was a bunch of baloney. Look how well that turned out

 

[Nuance AH]

Now, if you are saying that I (or anyone) could not pick out the RAAL tweeter out of 4 otherwise non-identical speakers without a RAAL, I think that would be an interesting challenge. What's your wager?

1 Benjamin on Curtis for me!

 

[NewHTbuyer]

All I can say is the other day I turned on my stereo and started "Fear" by Sarah McLachlan without knowing which set of speakers was playing(Ultra towers or Philharmonic 2s) and within about 15-20 seconds I was sure it was the Phil's with the Raal, and I was right. The Phil's and Ultras sound very different though, and I have become familiar with both over the last few weeks as I have been auditioning them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now, if you are saying that I (or anyone) could not pick out the RAAL tweeter out of 4 otherwise non-identical speakers without a RAAL, I think that would be an interesting challenge. What's your wager?

That.

My wager would be $1.

Its absolutely positively no big deal, of course. I'm fine either way.

 

[rhart00]

So I found this to be an interesting discussion, it appears to have gone way off topic.

I would be curious to see what opinions are on the basic seirra tower versus the aperion verus ground tower. This seems to be a much more fair comparison, if from nothing else than a price point perspective.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Goride]

For what it is worth, I can tell between domes and ribbons. I do not know if I can tell between a raal ribbon and a fountek ribbon though.

But I can tell between a dome and a ribbon because domes tend hurt my ears on high notes.