Analog sound: Real or myth?

obscbyclouds

obscbyclouds

Senior Audioholic
Thanks All!

ROTFL! This is by far one of the most hillarious threads I've read. Totally made my day, Thanks! ;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
obscbyclouds said:
ROTFL! This is by far one of the most hillarious threads I've read. Totally made my day, Thanks! ;)

Yes, we take time out to have a good time here:D
 
Arnold Layne

Arnold Layne

Enthusiast
Pluck,

It is my opinion that...(place this at the beginning of each paragraph below...please).

While being into this hobby for about 4 years, I have had a similar issue listening to CD's and wondered about the whole analog/digital thing. What dispels this myth in my mind is that I do have some very, very good sounding CD's. Most CD's I own do not sound very good. I listen to them and I fiddle with this and fiddle with that but no matter what:

1.) They do not sound 'right'
2.) They do not sound like I remember them sounding 'back in the day' (turntable).
3.) They hurt my ears.

BUT,

I do have some CD's that sound better than I believe a record or cassette could ever dream of sounding. Hmmm.

TEST,

Take a CD from one of your favorite bands, a greatest hits CD. Make sure there are several different producers on it. Listen to it. You will hear the same differences you hear CD to CD as you will producer to producer.

EXAMPLE #1,

Rush - The spirit of radio - Greatest Hits 1974 - 1987

If you cannot hear a major difference between Terry Brown produced songs and any other producer on this CD you need to get your super-human hearing checked again. Please refrain from attacking my preference in music. Granted, one possibility is the later stuff with different producers was recorded during the CD infancy but MY OPINION is it is the producer (or the source media) that is what is displeasing to my ears.

EXAMPLE #2,

Eagles - Greatest Hits 1971 - 1975

Same thing. Noticeable difference between producers. IN MY OPINION.


Anyone else tried this?

Arnold
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
EXAMPLE #1,Rush - The spirit of radio - Greatest Hits 1974 - 1987
EXAMPLE #2, Eagles - Greatest Hits 1971 - 1975
You picked two CDs that are at the opposite end of the spectrum for sound quality (I have both).

The Rush CD is a perfect example of over the top compression. It is extremely loud (averages -10 dB) and has no dynamics. I am only a casual Rush fun so I gave away my Retrospective I & II CDs to purchase the single Spirit of Radio CD - BIG MISTAKE.

The Eagles CD is one of the best mastered CDs of all time, regardless of whether you like the music. It is conservatively mastered (average level of -17 dB or so IIRC) and has a large dynamic range.

Comparing two CDs like that shows you the difference in mastering trends over the years but does not provide any useful information for supporting the theory that LP sounds better than CD.
 
P

Pluck

Audioholic Intern
Analog v digital is one of those religious wars. People who think there's a difference will often pay extra -- a whole lot extra, by the way -- for analog capability. Some fools think there is "status" in analog, which is something I've never understood.

People who don't hear a difference will sometimes get pretty rough on those who like analog. It's easy to do that, because when stating a preference that can't be proven or quantified you open yourself up for all kinds of lampooning. To me, it's a lot like the wine tasting world. You can pay $3 for a bottle of Two-Buck Chuck (which used to be $2, just like Motel 6 charged $6 for a while), and you can pay several hundred dollars for this or that burgundy. And when you try to describe the differences, you become comedic fodder.

Or cigars. I like medium-bodied robustos, and occasionally a torpedo shape. For a smidgen over $1 each in quantities of 20, you can buy Remedio robustos at J.R. Cigars made from Nicaraguan tobacco, and they'll go 85% of the way toward a Cuban Cohiba, Partagas or Bolivar robusto at about $20 each in quantities of 25. You can pay about $4 each in quantities of 25 for Ashton Cabinet bellicosos made of Dominican tobacco, and you're 95% of the way to a Cuban Montecristo #2. But if you want a Cuban cigar you have to pay the full frieght, and there is no Cuban cigar other than a Cuban cigar.

Now are Cuban cigars better? Not all of them, that's for sure. I've been in Canadian tobacco shops and have laughed to see Americans come in and ask for "a Cuban cigar" without knowing the brand or shape; if I ran the store, I'd sell that customer a counterfeit. They'd never know the difference. You have to have a lot of experience to be able to distinguish a Cuban cigar from the rest of them. The differences are subtle, especially when you compare them to the best from the Dominican Republic, which is only 90 miles from Cuba. A new smoker should start on J.R. Robustos. They are very good cigars, and they are a tremendous value.

But at the high-end? It's true, there's nothing like the best Cuban cigars. I've been smoking dog turds since I was 21 years old, which means close to 30 years. I started on machine rolled Garcia y Vega, a buck and a quarter for a box of five. Then I went up the ladder as I came into more money. Now, I can distinguish a Cuban Cohiba, Partagas, Bolivar, Uppman or Montecristo by taste from the non-Cuban versions of the same brands, and from non-Cuban versions of similar cigars, Ashton being the closest to Cuban quality in my opinion. But no test is ever going to prove it, and if I tell you that Cuban cigars have a unique combination of mild flavor and knock-your-head off strength you might laugh. When I smoke cigars I take the ringbands off, and in any case I smoke most cigars by myself so I'm impressing no one.

Back to audio. I tend to prefer analog but not always. There are plenty of recordings where you can't tell the difference, and the system and the room have a whole lot of influence. With respect to the Eagles and Rush, well, all I can say is that the first thing you have to do is pick tolerable music for the comparison.

Incoming!!!! :D

p.s.: If you want to buy Cuban cigars, go to cigarsclub.com. They are located in Spain, which is the European entrepot for Cuban tobacco owing to the former colonial relationship. You specify what you want, and they arrive in a box marked "produce of the Canary Islands." Separately, they mail you an envelope full of ring bands with box seals. I found them a few years ago and ordered a box of Cohibas as a test. When they got here and I smoked them, I knew they were the real thing. Prior to that, I got my Cohibas from a Catholic priest who smuggled them to Chicago and used the proceeds to fund an orphanage in Havana. Or so he said. :)
 
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no. 5

no. 5

Audioholic Field Marshall
People who don't hear a difference will sometimes get pretty rough on those who like analog.
I'll tell you this, I can hear up to around 19kHz and have lightly trained ears, and sometimes will get a weird look for saying I can hear something, but in this forum, you won’t get flack for saying you can hear a deference between two recordings on two deferent formats (when there is a deference to be heard), or even that you prefer one format to another.
You won't get any flack for usually preferring analogue (though you may get some jabs :rolleyes: ).

What a person will get flack for around here is passing opinion off as fact, or passing technically inaccurate theories as fact, inaccurate knowledge wont get you flack, but it will get you a correction (trust me I've been there).

Anyway, I'm glad you chose not to leave us, another persons knowledge and experiences is a benefit to all of us.
 
P

Pluck

Audioholic Intern
p.p.s: A month or so ago, a friend was in Tampa. There is a cohort of Cuban emigres in Tampa who roll cigars. Knowing my love of cigars, she went to a shop and got a bunch for me. This morning I was smoking one of them and thought, wow, someone in Tampa is importing Cuban tobacco. Turns out that I was smoking this. For $6.25 in quantities of 20, it gets somewhere between an Ashton and a Montecristo #2, and closer to the Montecristo than to the Ashton.

Not rolled in Tampa. The tobacco is grown in Nicaragua from Cuban seed. If you like Cuban cigars but don't want to pay $15-$20 apiece, this one is an incredible value.
 
Arnold Layne

Arnold Layne

Enthusiast
MDS,

Can you sum up in a few paragraphs a little information on compression? Or direct me to a thread or webpage I can educate myself?

I believe compression to be something that reduces the volume peaks in audio. Where does the compression take place? The original multi track recording, the mastering of the original album? Does it occur again while someone is compiling a greatest hits CD?

was it done to analog during mastering for albums without noticeable impact to the final audio? Or is it strictly something that has negatively impacted digital audio?

I appreciate your input.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
MDS,

Can you sum up in a few paragraphs a little information on compression? Or direct me to a thread or webpage I can educate myself?

I believe compression to be something that reduces the volume peaks in audio. Where does the compression take place? The original multi track recording, the mastering of the original album? Does it occur again while someone is compiling a greatest hits CD?

was it done to analog during mastering for albums without noticeable impact to the final audio? Or is it strictly something that has negatively impacted digital audio?

I appreciate your input.
Compression takes place during both multitrack mixing and mastering. You are correct that it reduces the peaks, in that once a threshold is set, the compressor reduces the levels above the threshold. How quickly it attacks the peak can vary, as well as how much it compresses the sound. Compression is often found drums, most often on the kick drum and snare. It is also used on vocals to "bring them up in the mix". The reason this works is that the compression reduces the dynamic range of a track, thereby allowing the sound to be raised in level without making the peaks go above 0dB. Compression used in mastering is applied to the entire mix. The problem is today that compression is overused to the point of abuse. Listen to an older album like Donald Fagen's The Nightfly. The average level is fairly quiet, but many of the sounds are quite dynamic, as is the material found on his Kamakiriad album. The last album in Fagen's trio, Morph the Cat, is a world apart. The vocals and bass are horribly compressed, lending an unnatural sound. Another new album that features a disgusting amount of compression that was applied at mastering is Nelly Furtado's Loose. You can hear the way certain dynamic sounds trigger a very hard compression, creating a 'pumping' sound and huge distortion as the limiter hits maximum. This is most apparent on track 8.

In conclusion, compression can be a good thing, when used properly. It's just that most modern music and remasters are over-compressed, destroying the original dynamics and natural sound of an album. If you would like to experience some modern music that is dynamic (as in not over-compressed), check out these albums:

Ani DiFranco - Knuckle Down
Ani DiFranco - Reprieve
Scott Gwinell Jazz Orchestra - Basement Vibes (available here)
 
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