5.1 rec challenge! for my small room, please. (pics)

[Gemseeker]

Hi,
As a total newbie to the home theater world I've spent months doing research and listening to what small selection of speakers I could find in local stores. I apologize for the long post but I wanted to be thorough right from the get-go.

So far I have bought:
Samsung LN40B650 TV
Panasonic DMP BD60 Blu-ray player
HP desktop computer, Windows 7, 64bit

-and still new in box (since I have no speakers to test it with to make sure it works, which is causing me a lot of anxiety!)
Denon 1713 receiver -rated 120 watts/channel. Supposed to be a 'warm' receiver.

I have listened to:
Mainstream Best Buy speakers, including Polk, Klipsch, Pioneer, Bose, B&W, Martin Logan, Definite Technology, and Energy.

From the two local home theater stores:
Wharfedale, Paradigm, Boston Acoustics

Before I report my findings I want to give everyone a better idea of my home situation.

My challenges:
#1. Space. My room is 12x14. Pretty small, and made even smaller by the bookcases, bed, bureau and TV stand lining nearly every foot of usable wall space. Plus two windows, a door and pair of sliding closet doors. I posted pictures on Photobucket -I can't post links yet. It's under EloquentQuill My Room-any search engine should find it quite easily.


I would be willing to remove the bureau to a different room and then slide the bookcases a few feet along the wall to make room for speakers. Otherwise, I'm not sure what I could do as to speaker placement, as I intend to get something better-quality than a cheapo HTiB. I want 5.1 and do not mind visible cables.

Now all this furniture (bookcases, soft recliner and bed, heavy drapes) lining the walls plus wall-to-wall carpet does a great job a deadening the room so the noise from my apartment neighbors is muffled quite a lot. I know it will affect the sound of speakers-in fact, I usually watch TV with subtitles because I often miss what people are saying, and by no means do I have bad hearing.

*Note: I had the idea of getting a bookcase speaker (vertical) instead of a horizontal center (which people say is actually more desirable) so what do you think of placing one on a short stand under the TV where it sticks out over the edge of the TV stand? It wouldn't quite be under the center of the TV, but it would only be off by about a foot or so. Nobody seems to have tried this, at least not that I could find online; anybody curious enough to try it and tell me their experience?

#2. Cost. It came as a real shock to me that even a medium-quality sound experience would cost hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars. After much research and trips to stores for listening-time, I have become resigned to the necessity of spending much more than I really want to, but still, I'm not going to go crazy, so my budget is around $800, plus or minus two hundred dollars. I reeeeally hope to find quality speakers on clearance somewhere. I want a full manufacturer's warrantee, so no unauthorized sites, please.

#3 Listening quirks. As I said, I'm in an apartment, and don't care for big bass anyway, so I'm leaning toward bookshelf speakers without a sub, while means they must have an adequately deep range, like 30Hz. Additional consideration must be taken for the sound-muffling furniture.

While this setup will be used 95% for movies/TV, (especially science fiction with lots of special effects) my music preferences are generally on the lighter range: Celtic harp and flute, piano, hammered dulcimer, cheerful pop and soothing new age.

*Note: I also have a sensitivity to percussion-it can cause really bad headaches and a feeling like someone is hitting me on the back of my neck. This happens even when the bass is turned practically off, but only at certain frequencies, in the upper bass range, 80-100 Hz. Oddly, it doesn't happen for thrumming, only percussion. Weird, huh? So speakers that are known to be bass-heavy are out.

A final note: I don't have cable. All my TV is streamed from my desktop computer, which has a nice sound card that I discovered separated sound so well that I now exclusively use my tiny powered computer speakers for listening. My Samsung TV has a gorgeous picture and can produce bigger sound but no directionality and everything is blended together, so tiny details like "pings" are almost unnoticable. I don't know if that will make a difference, but I just thought I'd mention it. I have no idea what will happen when I hook my PC up to my new Denon receiver...

OK, so of all the speakers I listened to, all without a subwoofer:

Energy CB 20 bookcase - warm and full, just enough punch to make the Megamind DVD I brought sound exciting but not enough to bother me, moderately clear highs. The only thing that bothered me was how deeper men's voices sounded slightly chesty/boomy. Also listened to the smaller CB 10s and other than having a less open, airy-room feel they sounded identical. Quote of $800 at Best Buy for the CB20s, including the Center 10 and smaller CB 5 surrounds. $370/pair. Don't know if they can be sold separately, so I can use one as a center.

Definitive Technology Studio 55 bookcase - Sounded as good as the Energys, but brighter, emphasizing the highs a bit more. No noticable punch, but bass was definitely present. Also listened to the Studio 45s-nice but even less bass. Sold individually instead of the usual pair at $300 each, so I could buy three and use the middle as a perfectly matched center.

The Martin Logans Motion 40 tower and Motion 4 bookshelves had very bright, clear highs but lacked authoritative bass. The B&W bookshelves and tower were very clear and had gorgeous rich warm bass for music but too much for movies; they got a bit too boomy.

I was not impressed by the Klipsch, Bose, Polk and Pioneer towers and bookshelves, each of which lacked at one end of the range or the other.

Boston Acoustic A series, the 23s - Excellent clarity but not much bass. Quote $1,100. The dealer didn't have the bigger 25s or 26s or I would have tried them. Anybody here listened to the bigger ones?

Wharfedale Jade 3 bookshelves were lovely light-cherry wedges, (I'd love honey-colored wood to match my other furniture-I dislike black, which is unfortunate since it's the most common color) had exceptional clarity, bass with a punch that I didn't feel, thankfully, nice clear highs. If not for the $1,500/pair price tag I'd buy them in a heartbeat! I also listened to the Jade towers (perfection) and smaller Diamond bookshelves (too much punch, although still excellent clarity)

Paradigm Studio 20 bookshelves- crystal clear but not enough bass to get by without a subwoofer. Lovely cherry color. Also listened to the Studio towers.

Just for kicks I tried the mini Paradigm MilleniaOne that's had such great reviews and I have to say it had the same exceptional clarity as its big brothers and had the same airy, open-room feeling but definitely lacked bass. I tried it with the Paradigm Monitor 8" sub and that sub had a slight irritating rumble I could feel, so no go. Too bad-because the small lozenge-shaped satellites would've fit a heck of a lot easier in my room. But then, the quote I got for the whole 5.1 was $3,200, so unless I could find them on clearance with a different sub...

I'd love to demo some quality speakers for free in my home-has anybody had good experiences with high quality speakers from certain manufacturers?

Should I go with the brighter speakers to counteract my sound-muffling room, or go with the warmer, richer sounding speakers that sound the most pleasingly balanced to my ears?

I've admit fallen in love with the Wharfedales, but a 5.1 is just too out of my price range. The other main contenders are the Paradigms (both) Energys or DefTechs.

Apparently some of the Energys are discontinued-or are they? Depends on which site you go to. Best Buy still says they're in stock, but I know websites are often wrong or out of date, and if they really are discontinued then NOW is the best time to buy, right? But price tracker websites say Energys are usually on sale in January, so should I wait?

I need to get some speakers soon to test my Denon receiver within the return period (by January 31st) and I'm kind of freaking out about it, so I decided to ask for some advice. Please?

 

[theJman]

You've obviously spent a considerable amount of time on this -- and seem well prepared -- so let me see if I can possibly address a few of your points...

First off, you mentioned wanting 5.1. However, with such a small space, and that much furniture, it might be better to think 3.1 instead. I'm not certain you'll be able to position 5 speakers to get the full effect, based upon where you're probably watching the TV from, so it may be wiser to go for fewer speakers but better quality. With a lot of movies you won't miss much if you don't have surrounds.

I'm not familiar with the affliction you have when it comes to lower frequencies, so it's difficult for me to understand how to devise a solution that works around it. One thing I can tell you though is that for movies a subwoofer is pretty much mandatory, especially if you're going to use smaller speakers. There's really no such thing as a bookshelf that can get down to 30Hz, so you can pretty much dismiss that notion. Think mid to lower 50's for most of them, with the occasional one that can dip into the upper 40's. It doesn't sound as though you have sufficient room for towers, so you may have to resign yourself to getting a sub if you want to reproduce anything approaching usable bass.


Just for kicks I tried the mini Paradigm MilleniaOne that's had such great reviews and I have to say it had the same exceptional clarity as its big brothers and had the same airy, open-room feeling but definitely lacked bass. But then, the quote I got for the whole 5.1 was $3,200, so unless I could find them on clearance with a different sub...

The MilleniaOne's always struck as nice little speakers, and the reviews seem quite positive as well, but they're way over-priced if you ask me. I don't think you'll find any discounts on them either because I believe they're only available through dealers, all of which probably have to adhere to MAP pricing.


I've admit fallen in love with the Wharfedales, but a 5.1 is just too out of my price range. The other main contenders are the Paradigms (both) Energys or DefTechs.

How would the Wharfedales fit your budget if you went 3.0 instead? SVS just released the SB-1000 subwoofer, which is $500. It's small, and knowing SVS probably a very nice unit.


Should I go with the brighter speakers to counteract my sound-muffling room, or go with the warmer, richer sounding speakers that sound the most pleasingly balanced to my ears?

You should always go with what your ears tell you - they're the ultimate judge. However, bear in mind that you listened to those other speakers in a store, which will have vastly different acoustics then your room does. What sounds bright in the store may sound warm in your room, given the furnishings.


Based upon your projected budget of $800-$1000, and assuming you'll probably go with a sub like the aforementioned SB1000, here are a few other options that may be worth considering:

• Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 and CMT-340
• Emotiva XRM-6.1 and XRC-5.2
• HSU HB-1 and HC-1
• Source Technologies 1.5 {for left, right and center}
• XTZ 93.21 or 93.22 {for left, right and center} or a set of bookshelf's and a center from their 95 line
• Arx A1b and A2b

 

[Gemseeker]

Thanks for the reply, Jman! I was beginning to think my post was so long it intimidated people...

Okay, I guess you didn't see the pics of my room ('My Room', under EloquentQuill on Photobucket). Once I hit 5 posts I will be able to post a link, if that's easier.

For 5.1, my listening chair is approximately in the center of my room, roughly 6 feet from three of the four walls, and four feet from the closest (to my left). I was under the impression that there are enough effects that can be heard behind one to justify rear corner speakers as long as they aren't hung on the wall or placed directly behind one's head. I plan to place them about two feet above my ear level on (the top of, NOT inside) book-filled bookcases.

My 'affliction' -sensitivity to percussive mid-base- is indeed tricky, LOL. One of the guys at the home theater store I demo'd speakers at was telling me that people actually have a range of sound sensitivities that make setting up home theaters a real challenge. I know I'll have to do a lot of adjusting when I go to calibrate everything, and even then I'm afraid I'll have to adjust the base for every movie, the way I have to for my car stereo. Some songs I can have full base (cellos, etc.) but light drums just whack me on the back of the neck like a two-by-four, making me hastily grab for the base-knob. Generally, though, I keep the base setting on my car to -3. Only really heavy drums will then cause me to reduce it as far as I can after that.

Towers don't usually have controllable base, so I'm looking at learger bookcases, and mid-fifties Hz should be fine. The Energy CB 20s I listened to have a low end of 60Hz, at which point I could hear/feel the 'poot' of air moving during movie crashes (I think that's what people call 'punch') but it didn't hurt me, so that's about the range I'm looking for.

As for getting a sub-people say a really good sub should be unnoticable/blend well with the other speakers. I listened to a Paradigm, an 8" I think, and while it did blend well, I had this hot, irritated-skin feeling on the back of my neck, like ants crawling on me or something-is that the mark of a bad sub? One that isn't controlled tightly enough? I wouldn't mind having one, but I assume I'd have to go with something that would be way out of my price range. I'm hesitant to waste money and time if bookshelves that go down to 55-ish Hz are enough.

Oh, the Wharfedales blow my budget out of the water. The fronts alone are $1,500 a pair, without a center. I'm trying to stay under $1,000 total for a 5.1 system. I even looked for them used, but most are like 20 years old, old enough to start having problems and I'm not handy at all (didn't even take shop in high school).

Everyone says 'always go by your own ears'. I understand that. Having said that, I'm asking those people with years of experience under their belt if, having the choice between two speakers that sound about equal in terms of clarity, if one is brighter (Definitive Technology Studio 55 bookshelf) and the other is warmer (Energy CB 20), will they sound significantly different when placed in a room with carpet, drapes soft furniture and bookcases on about 50% of the walls?

Or, really, what I'm asking is about the midrange-I just want to be able to make out what people are saying without subtitles. (!)

As to your suggestions: How do the Ascends compare to DefTech and Energys? (Soundwise.) I notice from the specs they have the same size woofer but are rated slightly lower at 53Hz-good for me, but the ad telling people to mount a rear-ported speaker on the wall is questionable.

The Emotivas have the right range at 53Hz but...only 4 ohms? and 87dB... even though their starting price was $500/pr? And is there some significance to having an 'offset tweeter'? Source Technology has only 6 ohms?... I've heard good things about Hsu subs.

Thanks again for your time! ^_^