$2,000-3,000 Tower speaker comparison: Need help picking the contenders

[NewHTbuyer]

I have had the sets AB...AB, BA....BA, AB...BA, and BA...AB. I was just pointing out the way they happened to be when some family stopped by.

The biggest difference I notice is more the lateral imaging as Dennis pointed out, not the bass, as the speakers are pretty far from the left and right walls even when they are the outside speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

They were split as to which set they liked better

IOW, there are a lot of great speakers. When you are able to compare them in the same room, they sound great. It's difficult to pick which is the absolute best in a blinded test when bias is removed. Based on SQ alone, most people would be happy with any of these speakers.

 

[monkish54]

IOW, there are a lot of great speakers. When you are able to compare them in the same room, they sound great. It's difficult to pick which is the absolute best in a blinded test when bias is removed. Based on SQ alone, most people would be happy with any of these speakers.

You think there are MANY great speakers that would all sound great in one room? You should figure out a way to put that as your signiture.

 

[Tomorrow]

I have had the sets AB...AB, BA....BA, AB...BA, and BA...AB. I was just pointing out the way they happened to be when some family stopped by.

The biggest difference I notice is more the lateral imaging as Dennis pointed out, not the bass, as the speakers are pretty far from the left and right walls even when they are the outside speakers.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. It sounds like you're doing all the right things to give each model a good workout. I was responding to your earlier comments that the bass was "fuller and warmer" from the SVS's...as well as the comment that "positioning in your room most affected the bass". And you also noted, the SVS's at one point "3-4 feet from the side walls." That's not much and can certainly add to bass reinforcement. Rooms and room placement are big factors in speaker presentation.

Keep those reports coming. They're much enjoyed.

Mud

 

[Nuance AH]

I wouldn't line the speakers up next to each other at all. Since you don't have instant switching capabilities and acoustic memory is short, just set up one pair in the location you'd place them if you kept them and listen for a good while. Then move them completely off the front wall and place the second pair of speakers in the exact same spot and repeat. Once you have a good feel for how each sounds in that formation, then experiment with placing each to the point where they sound the best, and then repeat the listening sessions. You should not be making critical comparisons with speakers line up next to each other, because (as you already noted) it will negatively effect the sound.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You think there are MANY great speakers that would all sound great in one room? You should figure out a way to put that as your signiture.

Hahaha.

A lot of people talk as if they have heard many speakers in their own room when probably 99% of them have never.

But that does not stop them from talking like they have.

They compare speakers from different rooms with no way of level matching and based purely from memory and a lot of times using different songs and even different setup. Yet they know exactly how these speakers would sound in their own rooms based purely from reading books.

 

[Irvrobinson]

They compare speakers from different rooms with no way of level matching and based purely from memory and a lot of times using different songs and even different setup.

You're correct, at least in my case, though I use the same recordings, some of which I've used for twenty years. There is no other practical way for most of us. If you lived closer I'd be bugging you for audition time.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

IOW, there are a lot of great speakers. When you are able to compare them in the same room, they sound great. It's difficult to pick which is the absolute best in a blinded test when bias is removed. Based on SQ alone, most people would be happy with any of these speakers.

I dunno. I compare high quality speakers all the time using level matching and instant A-B switching. I've never had any trouble detecting important differences unless the speakers used very similar drivers in the same basic configuration with the same target response.

 

[Irvrobinson]

IOW, there are a lot of great speakers. When you are able to compare them in the same room, they sound great. It's difficult to pick which is the absolute best in a blinded test when bias is removed. Based on SQ alone, most people would be happy with any of these speakers.

One other thing, ADTG, which I wish I knew how to put more delicately. Based on your posts over the past year or so you have a tendency to... fall in love with the last pretty girl you've danced with, speaker-wise that is. I don't think I'm so forgiving.

 

[Nuance AH]

A good speaker will sound good in a variety of rooms. In-home auditions will give the best results, but they aren't practical for most people. And even if they were, many would probably opt not to do it for one reason or another. Even when comparing at home acoustic memory is still short, so unless you have an instant A/B switcher that level matches it's still a hurdle yet to be overcome. If you know what to listen for you'll have no trouble finding a speaker that will suit your needs, even if you have to compare at 20 different dealerships. The whole "it wasn't an in-home audition" argument is dull, tiresome and simply isn't plausible anymore unless you have some special instant switching, level matching preamp. A simple in-room comparison at a GTG, well setup showroom or even similar rooms should be more than enough to help the listener determine if a speaker is for them or not.

 

[VicTorious1]

I wouldn't line the speakers up next to each other at all. Since you don't have instant switching capabilities and acoustic memory is short, just set up one pair in the location you'd place them if you kept them and listen for a good while. Then move them completely off the front wall and place the second pair of speakers in the exact same spot and repeat. Once you have a good feel for how each sounds in that formation, then experiment with placing each to the point where they sound the best, and then repeat the listening sessions. You should not be making critical comparisons with speakers line up next to each other, because (as you already noted) it will negatively effect the sound.

He does have instant switching capabilities. When I was over listening to the speakers, we would switch back and forth during any given song and replay a portion of that song and listen for specific differences. You could notice differences in say bells, piano runs or vocals. The more difficult part was choosing which differences you liked better and then aggregating that to decide which speaker you like better. Nonetheless, I was only there on the first day and it seems like NHTB has played with speaker placement since then.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

"Instant" switching is only possible with a dedicated switching preamp that can be set to compensate for the different sensitivites of different speakers (which is about 3 dB in this case). The switching is literally instantaneous--you don't change connections or stop the CD. You just punch in whichever speaker you want with a remote control.

 

[NewHTbuyer]

Since I only ended up with 2 sets, not 4, I did not have to use my speaker selector but instead hooked them up to the A and B speaker outputs (HK calls it speakers 1 and 2). I can switch back and forth with the remote and then just either go up or down 2 ticks on the volume depending upon which set is playing. It is not perfect, but pretty good. If I had to use the selector, it is manual, so I would have to get up or have a 2nd person stand up front and push the buttons while I listened.

 

[Nuance AH]

He does have instant switching capabilities. When I was over listening to the speakers, we would switch back and forth during any given song and replay a portion of that song and listen for specific differences. You could notice differences in say bells, piano runs or vocals. The more difficult part was choosing which differences you liked better and then aggregating that to decide which speaker you like better. Nonetheless, I was only there on the first day and it seems like NHTB has played with speaker placement since then.

I was posting in response to a certain individual's "broken record" post. It was certainly not a knock on NHTB, FYI. Truth is, a good speaker will sound good in many rooms, and you don't "need" to compare them side-by-side in the exact same room to get a feel for their overall character. Yes, an in the same room comparison is probably the best approach, but it isn't a necessity. That was my point, and it wasn't directed at NHTB. I commend what he is doing and am sad to see not all of the vendors chose to send speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

One other thing, ADTG, which I wish I knew how to put more delicately. Based on your posts over the past year or so you have a tendency to... fall in love with the last pretty girl you've danced with, speaker-wise that is. I don't think I'm so forgiving.

I don't know what you mean. Forgiving of what? If I think something sounds good, then that's what I think. Simple opinions.

I try never to say "speaker A is flat out better than speaker B".

Its quite simple. I base my opinion on what I actually hear with my ears & brain in my room. If it sounds good to my ears, then I will say it sounds good regardless of what the measurements say or what anyone says. If it sounds bad to my ears, I will say it sounds bad regardless of the measurements or what others say.

I try my best not to sugarcoat or over exaggerate. But I'm sure my words and expressions aren't 100% accurate.

I speak my mind and say what I feel at the moment.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I dunno. I compare high quality speakers all the time using level matching and instant A-B switching. I've never had any trouble detecting important differences unless the speakers used very similar drivers in the same basic configuration with the same target response.

We're they blinded comparisons? Even with instant switching, unblinded comparisons are still biased.

It's also possible that some people have an easier time discerning the differences.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't know what you mean. Forgiving of what? If I think something sounds good, then that's what I think. Simple opinions.

I try never to say "speaker A is flat out better than speaker B".

Its quite simple. I base my opinion on what I actually hear with my ears & brain in my room. If it sounds good to my ears, then I will say it sounds good regardless of what the measurements say or what anyone says. If it sounds bad to my ears, I will say it sounds bad regardless of the measurements or what others say.

I try my best not to sugarcoat or over exaggerate. But I'm sure my words and expressions aren't 100% accurate.

I speak my mind and say what I feel at the moment.

Well, I don't know about "flat out better", but you did post that the Phil 3s sounded more life-like than any other speaker you have. You even got me looking into the Phil 3. Then you got the 802D2s, and said they sounded as good as any speaker you owned. Later on you listened to Orions, and they were also right up there. There are all great speakers, and while I haven't heard the Phil 3s (dammit), I have heard the Orions and the 802D2s, and those two speakers in particular don't sound all that much alike. I fully admit that I haven't heard them in the same room, but you might be the only person on the planet to have ever done that. So when I say I'm less forgiving I should have said I'm less forgiving of differences.

I do believe you are telling us exactly what hear and feel at the time. I re-read my post, and I didn't accuse you of dishonesty, nor was that intended. On the other hand, I'm not sure you're as good an indicator of what I might like as I thought you might be, that's all. For a while I simply thought we had very similar taste, that's all, but you still have valuable opinions, at least to me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, I don't know about "flat out better", but you did post that the Phil 3s sounded more life-like than any other speaker you have. You even got me looking into the Phil 3. Then you got the 802D2s, and said they sounded as good as any speaker you owned. Later on you listened to Orions, and they were also right up there. There are all great speakers, and while I haven't heard the Phil 3s (dammit), I have heard the Orions and the 802D2s, and those two speakers in particular don't sound all that much alike. I fully admit that I haven't heard them in the same room, but you might be the only person on the planet to have ever done that. So when I say I'm less forgiving I should have said I'm less forgiving of differences.

I do believe you are telling us exactly what hear and feel at the time. I re-read my post, and I didn't accuse you of dishonesty, nor was that intended. On the other hand, I'm not sure you're as good an indicator of what I might like as I thought you might be, that's all. For a while I simply thought we had very similar taste, that's all, but you still have valuable opinions, at least to me.

Like I said, I tell it the way I feel at the moment. Moments change.

I don't expect anyone to agree. And after comparing a lot of speakers in my house as well as at dealers, I will never say any speaker is significantly night-and-day better than the rest.

Yes, the speakers do sound differently, but who is to say which is "better". And someone saying "speaker A sounds more lifelike than speaker B" is also just an opinion, not a fact.

We can see with some of the GTG's that when you actually place those speakers in the same room, especially if you can blind the listening, the results get interesting.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...you did post that the Phil 3s sounded more life-like than any other speaker you have. You even got me looking into the Phil 3. Then you got the 802D2s, and said they sounded as good as any speaker you owned. Later on you listened to Orions, and they were also right up there.

We really need to live with the speakers for a while to truly compare. And when we compare, it also takes a lot of time, not just a few sessions, but months. Why? They are not double-blinded tests. There will be bias. Yes, the Latest-Greatest Syndrome or "Latest Pretty Girl to the Dance" is a factor. I'm only human.

Any unblinded comparisons done less than a year is premature and should be considered first impressions IMO. And I have plenty of first impressions.

When I posted about the Phil3, I think I only had them for a relatively short time. And the comparisons were based on 1 or 2 comparison sessions.

After living with the Phil3 for about a year now, I will say that they don't sound "as good as" the Salon2 or "more lifelike" than the Salon2 or Orion3, but the Phil3 also cost a lot less. So I doubt that you should buy the Phil3 since you own the Salon2. The Phil3 are still worth auditioning, as do the Salk. But I don't think the Phil3 or Salk SS will ever be "as good as" the Salon2 IMO. Just my opinion. My bias. My brain.

The newest "pretty girls" in my HT room are the 802D2 & TAD 2201, so yeah, I still have that "honeymoon period" with them. It has been a few months. I still love them. I don't care what the measurements say, the 802D2 sound fantastic to me, but not anymore fantastic than the Salon2, Orion3, or KEF 201/2.

 

[Chu Gai]

Like I said, I tell it the way I feel at the moment. Moments change.

I don't expect anyone to agree. And after comparing a lot of speakers in my house as well as at dealers, I will never say any speaker is significantly night-and-day better than the rest.

Yes, the speakers do sound differently, but who is to say which is "better". And someone saying "speaker A sounds more lifelike than speaker B" is also just an opinion, not a fact.

We can see with some of the GTG's that when you actually place those speakers in the same room, especially if you can blind the listening, the results get interesting.

While I'm sure the GTG's are great fun, IMO, there are often too many of whatever - speakers, subs - to allow for a thorough comparison. Further, while a rotating platform - the equivalent of putting one speaker in the same place as the other(s) - has merit in an anechoic chamber, I have reservations about this approach in a room. This is because one cannot unilaterally say the happy place is the same for all. The issues are further complicated by considering the -3dB points can be different which influences not only the subjective impressions but also room excitation. I think it would be helpful if one were to also include the in-room responses at a few select spots but I recognize this becomes problematical when the number of speakers under evaluation increases. Also just because a room has been treated, doesn't mean it's been treated properly or if it has, it may only be for that one particular speaker the owner has.

An additional problem if you will, that I see in blind comparisons, is that there may be some people who are eminently familiar with the model they own and this sonic signature if you will becomes consciously or subconsciously recognizable and hence preferred.