$2,000-3,000 Tower speaker comparison: Need help picking the contenders

S

steve1616

Audiophyte
Was this to remove bias, or just how you roll?
I couldn't believe what I was about to read when I opened my laptop up. Keep in mind that I have kidney stones so I am sitting in a recliner drinking as much water as you could possibly imagine. So I see this post with a full mouth of water. It was not pretty. You could only imagine the look I got from my wife and children.
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
Some more observations after another few hours of listening today…

I am feeling pretty torn still about which set I like better. I feel pretty comfortable when I say that the Phil 2s are the “better” speaker if the criteria is pure accuracy and transparency. Probably, most reviewers for magazines would appreciate their clear sound and clean, enveloping high end. But, while that might mean that the SVS Ultras are therefore more “colored” and less pure, they present a very attractive sound. They are rich, deep and powerful.

Another way I thought of to describe it is that, when I just listen to the SVS Ultras, I don’t really notice any real failings. It is only when I switch to the Phils that I say ahhh..the soundstage opened up even more and the highs became clearer. When I listen to just the Phils, I do notice some lack of depth and oomph. That makes the choice difficult, kinda between the technically better set and the one that maybe agrees with me more. Also, in truth, the SVS seem to mesh better with rock music and the deep bass on jazz, which I like to listen to a lot. For classical, I would prefer the Phil 2s.

On Monday, Victor is going to bring by his PB1000 sub and it will be interesting to see how much difference that makes when added to the Phil 2s.

On a side note, I am still kinda regretting that I was not able to listen to the other 2 brands at the same time. It would have been interesting to hear the Ascend with the Raals, to see whether I preferred how that tweeter with the more conventional midrange compared to the Phil 2s with the ribbon-open back cabinet. Looking at the specs though, I probably would have been disappointed in the low end extension on the Ascend towers and would probably feel like they need a sub. Also, I would have loved to see how the higher quality dome tweeter and cone driver in the VR-22s compared to the SVS towers, especially whether they projected a more immersive sound similar to what I am hearing from the ribbons.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
...that might mean that the SVS Ultras are therefore more “colored” and less pure...
If the SVS measure worst than +/-3dB, then you can say they are “colored and less pure".

Another way I thought of to describe it is that, when I just listen to the SVS Ultras, I don’t really notice any real failings. It is only when I switch to the Phils that I say ahhh..the soundstage opened up even more and the highs became clearer.
I would interpret that to mean the Phil2 are better because they have bigger soundstage & clearer sound.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Some more observations after another few hours of listening today…

I am feeling pretty torn still about which set I like better. I feel pretty comfortable when I say that the Phil 2s are the “better” speaker if the criteria is pure accuracy and transparency. Probably, most reviewers for magazines would appreciate their clear sound and clean, enveloping high end. But, while that might mean that the SVS Ultras are therefore more “colored” and less pure, they present a very attractive sound. They are rich, deep and powerful.

Another way I thought of to describe it is that, when I just listen to the SVS Ultras, I don’t really notice any real failings. It is only when I switch to the Phils that I say ahhh..the soundstage opened up even more and the highs became clearer. When I listen to just the Phils, I do notice some lack of depth and oomph. That makes the choice difficult, kinda between the technically better set and the one that maybe agrees with me more. Also, in truth, the SVS seem to mesh better with rock music and the deep bass on jazz, which I like to listen to a lot. For classical, I would prefer the Phil 2s.

On Monday, Victor is going to bring by his PB1000 sub and it will be interesting to see how much difference that makes when added to the Phil 2s.

On a side note, I am still kinda regretting that I was not able to listen to the other 2 brands at the same time. It would have been interesting to hear the Ascend with the Raals, to see whether I preferred how that tweeter with the more conventional midrange compared to the Phil 2s with the ribbon-open back cabinet. Looking at the specs though, I probably would have been disappointed in the low end extension on the Ascend towers and would probably feel like they need a sub. Also, I would have loved to see how the higher quality dome tweeter and cone driver in the VR-22s compared to the SVS towers, especially whether they projected a more immersive sound similar to what I am hearing from the ribbons.

Do you still have these set up with the Phils inside the SVS's? If so, exchange the positions and see what you think.

By the way, decades past, I used to love the sound offered by Advent Large speakers. They had a saddle-like FR...quite reinforced bass and HF, all at the expense of the mids. (I have the same musical taste as you.) Rock and Roll, well...rocked. Now that I've lived with a long series of beautifully designed, accurate speakers, I wonder how I ever tolerated those old Advents. Great for drunken parties of youth, I guess. :(
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
If the SVS measure worst than +/-3dB, then you can say they are “colored and less pure".

.

It's not nearly that simple. It all depends on where the deviations from linearity occur, and how close to each other they occur. For example, if a speaker has a peak of 2 dB at 2 kHz, followed by a dip just above that, violins could start sounding like clarinets. It would be a very noticeable coloration. But if a speaker starts trailing off in the highs, and has a dip of 3 dB in the lower midrange around 400 Hz, but might never notice anything. And then there's the question of whether the peak or dip is associated with a ringing resonance or not. And the on-axis response vs. off-axis. And the phases of the moon.
 
S

steve1616

Audiophyte
Speaker tests are fun, but so confusing. I still remember when I wasn't completely for sure that the SVS MTS-02's were worth the money because I overanalyze everything. My wife wouldn't let them go even if I wanted to because they made enough difference in dialogue that you could finally understand what everyone is saying in movies. I knew that the SVS speakers were better, but they were a lot of money. I then hooked my speaker selector up to the different sets of speakers and level matched everything so that I could just have someone switch between speakers really fast. It is amazing the differences that can be heard when the switching is instant, and when you have no idea which speaker is being switched to. It also told me that if I give my mind enough time, it could make any speaker sound better or worse. I almost wonder how the new ultras compare to the M series from SVS. I am very impressed with the M series speakers, because they just don't have any glaring weaknesses. I actually couldn't even pick what speaker I liked better between the SVS and the BW804 during a blind test, and I was sure that the BW804's were majorly outperforming the SVS before the blind test.

I almost forgot to say that I was always drawn to ribbon speakers for some reason, but I would get tired of them after extended listening. I think I have found my speakers with the M series for quite a while, or at least until I get some time to build the orion speakers for fun.
 
S

steve1616

Audiophyte
NewHTbuyer, you wouldn't happen to be close to Kansas would you? I was just curious because we might have to have a M series vs. Ultra shootout. I figured I would ask just in case you happen to live down the street from me. I know it is unlikely, but I figured I would give it a try. I loved the M series so much that now everyone in my family owns a set, and we have a big family.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I actually couldn't even pick what speaker I liked better between the SVS and the BW804 during a blind test, and I was sure that the BW804's were majorly outperforming the SVS before the blind test.
Yup. True comparisons should always be blinded, even just simple single-blinded. Let someone else do the switching.
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
We had a fun listening session today. Vic brought over his Gallo CL-3s and Bitterwaste brought over his EmpTek E55 towers. I enjoyed it, especially because I was able to hear some different music other than the same stuff I have been using for the last couple weeks. It is impressive how big the E55 towers are, even taller than the Ultra towers. The finish is also is very nice. The CL-3s are definitely the midget of these speakers. It was also pretty apparent to all of us that the EMPs and SVS towers were cousins, so to speak, as far as their sound. The Gallos and Phils also were similar, probably because of their tweeters. We also tried with Vics PB1000 sub both on and off.

As far as how they sounded, again it was somewhat track dependent, but we did notice definite differences. With most tracks you could really not notice if the sub was on or off while the Ultra towers were playing. The other 3 sets did benefit from the sub at the bottom end. Everybody marveled at the wide soundstage of the Phils and commented how they disappeared compared to the others. We all liked the richness and fullness of the SVS towers. The difference between the Ultras and the EMPs was subtle. I can't really put a good description on the difference. On some tracks the EMPs were a bit thinner in the mids but on some the SVS seemed to be a bit less clear. The SVS to me did sound overall a bit better with all genres, but value-wise what you get with the EMPs at $800/pair is remarkable. Did I mention they are really tall!

As far as how the Gallos sounded vs. the Phils, I thought they were a bit too bright and the lacked some depth to the mids. (I have both diffuser pads on the Phil tweeters, so they are not running hot right now.) The Gallos definitely needed the sub the most of the 4 sets. On some classical and acoustic tracks they shined and did the best, but overall they were not my favorite sounding set.

It is interesting to compare ears to specs. The amount of bass on the Ultras seems considerably more than the other sets, but they are only rated 4 hz lower than the Phils or the Gallos, which are rated down to 32 Hz. Also, the EMPs are only rated to 40Hz. But, listening, I would say the EMPs and Phils had similar low end, pretty great, while the Gallos were not nearly getting as low. I have read that the bass gets better once the filling in the Gallos settles, so maybe the fact that they were transported over to my place adversely affected them. Also, Vic noted that they sounded better to him at his place away from boundaries, maybe due to their wide dispersion tweeter. But that was impossible with the speakers all next to each other. So, maybe they did not get a fair shake.

I think the other guys agreed with me that the SVS and EMPs did best on rock and more intense music while the Phils/Gallos were better with acoustics.
 

Attachments

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Nuance AH

Audioholic General
So are you any closer to choosing which you'll keep? :D
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Did you directly and quickly compare the Phil's with the sub on with the SVS with no sub?
 
N

NewHTbuyer

Audioholic
Well, after many days of listening and much deliberation I finally made a decision. I decided to stick with the Ultra Towers. I spoke with Dennis today, and he was understanding and I appreciate the efforts he made to get me a pair of Phil 2s in my price range to audition. It was a very difficult choice, one that I will probably second guess myself a number of times as the months go by. I really loved both speakers, and they are quite different, so it was not really a matter of choosing which was the "better" speaker, but really which suited me better at this time, with my music, and my setup. I knew from the beginning that a sub in this room would not pass the WAF test, and despite revisiting that topic, the line never moved. It is really not an unreasonable request by her, since the master bedroom is right on top of the basement listening room and the floor is very thin. She has been quite supportive of my many months of shopping/browsing forums/taking time off work etc. (But, that did factor into the decision. Honestly, if I had planned to get a sub or 2 from the get go, I probably would have just got Salk Songtowers with upgraded tweeter and a pair of sealed subs, since I really liked the Salks at RMAF.)

So, it was more of deciding do I like chocolate or vanilla ice cream, rather than which of these 2 chocolate ice creams is better. Or another analogy, choosing between a sedan or an SUV.

I did one final brief session today, and I put in one of my favorite albums, Joshua Tree, and really just sat and tried to soak in the differences and think which I would miss more. On track 5(Running to Stand Still), it begins with some quiet and twangy guitar from the left, and the Phils were so detailed and clear. The Ultras still sounded great, with just a touch of detail lost and a smidge of maybe coloration. But as the song rolls on, and the voice and drums and other instruments start, I really favored the Ultras. On track 4(Bullet the Blue Sky), the kick drums and dynamics were very good on the Phils, but great on the SVS. Finally, Track 7(In God's Country) starts with a couple guitars strumming, and againthe Phils sounded better, but the bass line on the SVS is so good.

As Dennis posted, maybe the Phil 3s would have been the best for me, but at around $3500, I just could not pull that off at this time.

As a very minor factor, the finish on the Ultras is very nice for 2 grand.

I think the Phils with subs would be great for any music or a home theater setup. IMO, no matter how low a tower goes, you need a sub for a true HT, so that is not a knock on the Phils.

I plan to post a longer review of the SVS towers on their website in the next few days, so I will probably paste that here.

Thanks to all the AH members who gave advice and hopefully you enjoyed my impression and pics. It was also great to meet some members in person. I am looking forward to settling in and now enjoying my speakers, at least until it is time for the next upgrade .....(insert evil laugh here) :D
 
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steve1616

Audiophyte
Your comparisons were very nice, and I really appreciate your time to review all these speakers. I think you said it best also because so many people want to say a certain speaker is better than another when sometimes it is just that they sound a little different, and so the choice isn't clear cut, but instead revolves around personal tastes. Either way, I think you'll be super happy with the SVS speakers. I have no idea what yours sound like, but I know my MTS-02's are completely awesome.
 
E

Ed Mullen

Manufacturer
Well, after many days of listening and much deliberation I finally made a decision. I decided to stick with the Ultra Towers. I spoke with Dennis today, and he was understanding and I appreciate the efforts he made to get me a pair of Phil 2s in my price range to audition. It was a very difficult choice, one that I will probably second guess myself a number of times as the months go by. I really loved both speakers, and they are quite different, so it was not really a matter of choosing which was the "better" speaker, but really which suited me better at this time, with my music, and my setup. I knew from the beginning that a sub in this room would not pass the WAF test, and despite revisiting that topic, the line never moved. It is really not an unreasonable request by her, since the master bedroom is right on top of the basement listening room and the floor is very thin. She has been quite supportive of my many months of shopping/browsing forums/taking time off work etc. (But, that did factor into the decision. Honestly, if I had planned to get a sub or 2 from the get go, I probably would have just got Salk Songtowers with upgraded tweeter and a pair of sealed subs, since I really liked the Salks at RMAF.)

So, it was more of deciding do I like chocolate or vanilla ice cream, rather than which of these 2 chocolate ice creams is better. Or another analogy, choosing between a sedan or an SUV.

I did one final brief session today, and I put in one of my favorite albums, Joshua Tree, and really just sat and tried to soak in the differences and think which I would miss more. On track 5(Running to Stand Still), it begins with some quiet and twangy guitar from the left, and the Phils were so detailed and clear. The Ultras still sounded great, with just a touch of detail lost and a smidge of maybe coloration. But as the song rolls on, and the voice and drums and other instruments start, I really favored the Ultras. On track 4(Bullet the Blue Sky), the kick drums and dynamics were very good on the Phils, but great on the SVS. Finally, Track 7(In God's Country) starts with a couple guitars strumming, and againthe Phils sounded better, but the bass line on the SVS is so good.

As Dennis posted, maybe the Phil 3s would have been the best for me, but at around $3500, I just could not pull that off at this time.

As a very minor factor, the finish on the Ultras is very nice for 2 grand.

I think the Phils with subs would be great for any music or a home theater setup. IMO, no matter how low a tower goes, you need a sub for a true HT, so that is not a knock on the Phils.

I plan to post a longer review of the SVS towers on their website in the next few days, so I will probably paste that here.

Thanks to all the AH members who gave advice and hopefully you enjoyed my impression and pics. It was also great to meet some members in person. I am looking forward to settling in and now enjoying my speakers, at least until it is time for the next upgrade .....(insert evil laugh here) :D
Thanks for such a comprehensive and well sorted comparison, NewHTBuyer. As you so well described, all of the loudspeakers you auditioned have unique strengths and attributes, and we're humbled you feel the Ultra Tower ultimately compares well against such highly regarded competitive brands.
 
E

Ed Mullen

Manufacturer
Ed:

How does SVS feel about PowerSoundAudio?
Tom and Jim are great guys and well respected and liked by everyone at SVS and in the industry. They make a solid product at a fair price and I would recommend PSA be on anyone's short list when considering a high performance subwoofer.
 

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