DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
So, Quad, what do you think about the Audio Insider's policy with respect to replacements contrasted with AV451's? Now, it seems one thing you don't get with TAI is drama, corruption, and most importantly - you don't get a customer unfriendly policy.
 
quadriverfalls

quadriverfalls

Banned
Chu Gai said:
So, Quad, what do you think about the Audio Insider's policy with respect to replacements contrasted with AV451's? Now, it seems one thing you don't get with TAI is drama, corruption, and most importantly - you don't get a customer unfriendly policy.
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Chu.... I understand completely where you're coming from. And, it's oh so easy to kick another when they are down. You can look at it as though the glass is half full or obviously, half empty. Again, I certainly don't condone or like one bit most of the stuff that's happened. But again, I'll reserve final judgement until this all shakes out.

Just the way I am I guess. My house isn't clean enough to sling mud at anothers.... so I don't.
 
woofersus

woofersus

Audioholic
quadriverfalls said:
Chu.... I understand completely where you're coming from. And, it's oh so easy to kick another when they are down. You can look at it as though the glass is half full or obviously, half empty. Again, I certainly don't condone or like one bit most of the stuff that's happened. But again, I'll reserve final judgement until this all shakes out.

Just the way I am I guess. My house isn't clean enough to sling mud at anothers.... so I don't.
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Quadman, while I generally feel that some have been a little hard on you here, I have to disagree with this statement. This is beyond "shaking out." This is way past kicking somebody when they are down. I felt much the same way you do when all I knew was the preorders and some of the raffle stuff, and given my optimistic nature it was easy to want to believe some of it happened by accident - crappy as it might be. Since then I've learned quite a bit beyond what is floating around in forums. Some of the major players are keeping their cards close to the vest as there is ongoing litigation and pending court dates and such, but I've gotten 1st hand info from a lot of respectable people, and there is a pattern there. Screwed, screwed, screwed, screwed, and screwed. My grace period has expired. There is a lot more money involved than just the raffles, and it's really impossible to believe any of it was just misfortune.

I don't think you're somehow personally wrong to feel the way you do, and I can understand where it comes from, but I want to impress upon you that there is very little convolution left to the situation, and let me tell you, it's ugly. There is definitely a little bit of over-obsession with unrelated details of the man's life, but the need to make people realize who they're dealing with and try to prevent more people from being swindled is valid, IMHO. There ARE people being kicked when they are down, and ONE guy is doing the kicking.
 
quadriverfalls

quadriverfalls

Banned
woofersus said:
Quadman, while I generally feel that some have been a little hard on you here, I have to disagree with this statement. This is beyond "shaking out." This is way past kicking somebody when they are down. I felt much the same way you do when all I knew was the preorders and some of the raffle stuff, and given my optimistic nature it was easy to want to believe some of it happened by accident - crappy as it might be. Since then I've learned quite a bit beyond what is floating around in forums. Some of the major players are keeping their cards close to the vest as there is ongoing litigation and pending court dates and such, but I've gotten 1st hand info from a lot of respectable people, and there is a pattern there. Screwed, screwed, screwed, screwed, and screwed. My grace period has expired. There is a lot more money involved than just the raffles, and it's really impossible to believe any of it was just misfortune.

I don't think you're somehow personally wrong to feel the way you do, and I can understand where it comes from, but I want to impress upon you that there is very little convolution left to the situation, and let me tell you, it's ugly. There is definitely a little bit of over-obsession with unrelated details of the man's life, but the need to make people realize who they're dealing with and try to prevent more people from being swindled is valid, IMHO. There ARE people being kicked when they are down, and ONE guy is doing the kicking.
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Understod. And ignorance is bliss I suppose. I've pretty much stayed on the periphery during all of this. I haven't been "investigating" things at all. I haven't tried to verify some of the stuff I've heard, and frankly.... haven't really tried to "hear" anything other than what I know for certain. So, like I said.... if all you say is true.... then there will be a reckoning (is that spelled right?) for the man and I will make my final judgements then.

Again, I'm not trying to "support" in any way. I no longer promote the speakers on any boards or to any friends. Frankly, I don't mention them at all. I'm just keeping to myself and I guess burying my head in the sand if you will. Maybe I just don't want to know all of the sordid details. Nothing wrong with that I don't think. I'm still hoping all will work out for the best for all involved. Like I said.... quite possibly ignorance is bliss.

Regardless of how I feel, my own house just isn't clean enough to sling mud at anothers. No matter HOW bad things may be. So, I politely choose not to. I shouldn't be ostracized for that do you think?
 
droht

droht

Full Audioholic
quadriverfalls said:
Regardless of how I feel, my own house just isn't clean enough to sling mud at anothers. No matter HOW bad things may be. So, I politely choose not to. I shouldn't be ostracized for that do you think?
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John, I'll make a general comment here. I don't think anyone is required to sling mud or actively participate in an effort to bring the activities at av123 to light. I also don't think anyone should participate on their forum in such a way to lend credibility to what they are doing. I have an issue with those guys who have "been around" and continue to act like things are OK.

Now here is a quadman specific comment. There is no way your house is so dirty as to preclude you from slinging mud or throwing stones or piling on. If you were in a similar situation to mls my guess is that you would do all you could to make people whole, likely at a very great personal cost. Sell off your assets; work four jobs; whatever it takes - right? Even still, you don't need to say anything about it. Certainly your right and I respect it.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Every Christmas you hear about someone who might've robbed the Salvation Army person ringing the bell, broken in and took toys that were in storage and gathered up by The Marines for children that don't have any. They catch the someone and the world knows those people for what they are - scum. Look at the situation here. It's no different. It's just multiplied many fold over. He took personal advantage of the dying and dead, cancer victims, natural disaster victims, and anything or anyone he could. He took the trust of people he called friends and didn't repay them until eventually he was out of friends. And as he did it, he badmouthed them behind their backs. He badmouthed his suppliers and ridiculed their personal lives behind their backs. He's called customers stupid. And yes, matters of his personal life have been aired. Some may object to the mention of Ms. Khabarovski and others as not relevant. They are entirely relevant because it tells you where a lot of the money went. Some have objected to matters of public record that speak to foreclosure of his home. Again, they are entirely relevant because they speak towards matters of corporate solvency.

For me it's not a matter of seeing a glass half full or half empty. Those aren't my only choices. I see a series of glasses with nothing in them. I see the gravestones of people who've died thinking there was someone who cared. I see kids and people in cancer wards. I see the orphanage in Khabarovsk that never got what they were said to have gotten. I do though see a woman in Khabarovsk driving a nice relatively new imported SUV past those orphanages. I see the trust of very close friends betrayed as he picked their pockets.

Kick him when he's down? My god, he's been playing in the gutter for years. Now he's in the sewers and again milking people for sympathy. Just one more chance. Just one more plan. Time's up. There's only a few more moves till checkmate.
 
woofersus

woofersus

Audioholic
quadriverfalls said:
Understod. And ignorance is bliss I suppose. I've pretty much stayed on the periphery during all of this. I haven't been "investigating" things at all. I haven't tried to verify some of the stuff I've heard, and frankly.... haven't really tried to "hear" anything other than what I know for certain. So, like I said.... if all you say is true.... then there will be a reckoning (is that spelled right?) for the man and I will make my final judgements then.

Again, I'm not trying to "support" in any way. I no longer promote the speakers on any boards or to any friends. Frankly, I don't mention them at all. I'm just keeping to myself and I guess burying my head in the sand if you will. Maybe I just don't want to know all of the sordid details. Nothing wrong with that I don't think. I'm still hoping all will work out for the best for all involved. Like I said.... quite possibly ignorance is bliss.

Regardless of how I feel, my own house just isn't clean enough to sling mud at anothers. No matter HOW bad things may be. So, I politely choose not to. I shouldn't be ostracized for that do you think?
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Certainly not. As I said, I think your comments on the AV123 forums drew a little bit of overreaction here. I can always respect a desire to stay out of the mudslinging, and I have taken that approach much of the time myself. I just felt the need to address the idea that maybe it could all just work out or that it remains to be seen whether any actions were deliberate. I'd respectfully submit that this IS the reckoning, and it's only going to get worse. It's a slow painful process, (the legal system is that way, I suppose) but it's happening, and there is the risk of many of these things getting swept under the rug and having it happen all over again, like it has in the past. I find some of the outright mudslinging distasteful myself sometimes, but I now fully see the value in making sure people know what has happened.
 
G

GOSU1

Enthusiast
quadriverfalls said:
Chu.... I understand completely where you're coming from. And, it's oh so easy to kick another when they are down. You can look at it as though the glass is half full or obviously, half empty. Again, I certainly don't condone or like one bit most of the stuff that's happened. But again, I'll reserve final judgement until this all shakes out.

Just the way I am I guess. My house isn't clean enough to sling mud at anothers.... so I don't.
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Quad,

I personally would not have a problem with your approach if, in fact, you had reserved judgment and had not spoken until you had all of the facts--instead, on the AV123 Forum you actually praised Schifter for his new policy on out of warranty parts and questioned anyone who would have the audacity to challenge that policy. Even MAC, a long-time Schifter apologist, called him out on on the AV123 Forum for this policy.
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
Congrats on the weight loss and the smoke-free lungs, quad. Keep up the good work!
quadriverfalls said:
But again, I'll reserve final judgement until this all shakes out.
Click to expand...
For a long time now, I've also tried to take a similar stance, at least to a limited degree. I've exchanged emails with Mark over the last six months or so, pressing him for specific action on resolving the issues that he has created and questioning some of his actions during that time (such as the public comments about Ruben, which just seemed odd and out-of-place). While pressing him for answers - and trying to discern how much of the content of those answers had any resemblance to fact - I've wondered several times just how long we will all have to wait for something to happen.

Promises of company changes go back about two years. Geekinthehood waited in excess of three years for a pair of speakers after paying for them. The most recent "underfunded" raffle is already several years old, and the earliest raffle about which questions exist is around five and a half years old. Sean's been struggling to achieve closure for several years since leaving AV123 - and considering all the work he did for Mark when he was an employee, that would suggest a worrisome lack of respect on Mark's part for someone who helped bring him success and profit. Over the course of those years, the number of requests for patience, claims of delays that were someone else's fault, diversions, deleted forum posts, and other manipulations intended to avoid real action are probably impossible to count. In the process, the sheer magnitude of what needs to be resolved has grown into a daunting behemoth. We have seen some progress - LS's delivered, a new source for MFW amps last summer, UFW12-HR kits last fall - but we've also seen old habits linger (such as steering attention toward products that are still in development) and precious little indication of resolution for some of the more bothersome issues (payments to raffle charities, long-overdue refunds, RSL-II betas). I still like the idea of seeing some real and proper resolutions (something along the lines of Jed's vision), but I no longer feel that any action from AV123 will restore my trust in the organization or the individual in charge.

quadriverfalls said:
Regardless of how I feel, my own house just isn't clean enough to sling mud at anothers. No matter HOW bad things may be. So, I politely choose not to. I shouldn't be ostracized for that do you think?
Click to expand...
We must each decide how we will react to AV123's actions. For what it's worth, quad, I have no issue with that course of action - I think your reasons are perhaps more noble than Mark deserves, but I can understand your decision to stick to those reasons for your own peace of mind. I worry that ignoring the situation makes it easier for them to manipulate new customers, but it's not something I have any real control over - not when they have elected to control their forum traffic in such a way that dissent is invisible. I've got my own life to take care of, though, so I'm not going to beat my head against that particular wall. This thread provides some useful insight for those who find it, so I toss my two cents in here from time to time. I also email Mark every once in a while to see if he's doing anything. That's what I choose to do. Others choose to do more or to do less. We all have to decide for ourselves.
 
quadriverfalls

quadriverfalls

Banned
Chu Gai said:
Every Christmas you hear about someone who might've robbed the Salvation Army person ringing the bell, broken in and took toys that were in storage and gathered up by The Marines for children that don't have any. They catch the someone and the world knows those people for what they are - scum. Look at the situation here. It's no different. It's just multiplied many fold over. He took personal advantage of the dying and dead, cancer victims, natural disaster victims, and anything or anyone he could. He took the trust of people he called friends and didn't repay them until eventually he was out of friends. And as he did it, he badmouthed them behind their backs. He badmouthed his suppliers and ridiculed their personal lives behind their backs. He's called customers stupid. And yes, matters of his personal life have been aired. Some may object to the mention of Ms. Khabarovski and others as not relevant. They are entirely relevant because it tells you where a lot of the money went. Some have objected to matters of public record that speak to foreclosure of his home. Again, they are entirely relevant because they speak towards matters of corporate solvency.

For me it's not a matter of seeing a glass half full or half empty. Those aren't my only choices. I see a series of glasses with nothing in them. I see the gravestones of people who've died thinking there was someone who cared. I see kids and people in cancer wards. I see the orphanage in Khabarovsk that never got what they were said to have gotten. I do though see a woman in Khabarovsk driving a nice relatively new imported SUV past those orphanages. I see the trust of very close friends betrayed as he picked their pockets.

Kick him when he's down? My god, he's been playing in the gutter for years. Now he's in the sewers and again milking people for sympathy. Just one more chance. Just one more plan. Time's up. There's only a few more moves till checkmate.
Click to expand...
Ok Chu.... I get it. He's a vile, corrupt, less than human, devil serpant in your eyes. At one time, the man was my friend. It's quite difficult to see your friends dragged through this. It's equally difficult to imagine that someone you thought so highly of could actually do all of these things and that all of this stuff is true. No one likes to know, or feels good about the fact that someone they used to respect and care for could be capable of such things. Just as it's terrifying to think of all of the pain that's been caused.

Look.... I'm just trying to remain as detached as possible here. Please allow me that at least. I haven't tried to rain on your parade. I've not tried to beat my chest and tell what I do know as fact. Or to contradict you in areas where you may be wrong. I've respected your right to dig, dig and dig some more. I've respected your right to air your opinions while screaming from the rooftops and didn't say much at all.

Please.... show me the same courtesy and respect my right to keep my opinions subdued and to myself without acting so incredulous that I don't loathe the guy.
 
quadriverfalls

quadriverfalls

Banned
gonk said:
Congrats on the weight loss and the smoke-free lungs, quad. Keep up the good work!

For a long time now, I've also tried to take a similar stance, at least to a limited degree. I've exchanged emails with Mark over the last six months or so, pressing him for specific action on resolving the issues that he has created and questioning some of his actions during that time (such as the public comments about Ruben, which just seemed odd and out-of-place). While pressing him for answers - and trying to discern how much of the content of those answers had any resemblance to fact - I've wondered several times just how long we will all have to wait for something to happen.

Promises of company changes go back about two years. Geekinthehood waited in excess of three years for a pair of speakers after paying for them. The most recent "underfunded" raffle is already several years old, and the earliest raffle about which questions exist is around five and a half years old. Sean's been struggling to achieve closure for several years since leaving AV123 - and considering all the work he did for Mark when he was an employee, that would suggest a worrisome lack of respect on Mark's part for someone who helped bring him success and profit. Over the course of those years, the number of requests for patience, claims of delays that were someone else's fault, diversions, deleted forum posts, and other manipulations intended to avoid real action are probably impossible to count. In the process, the sheer magnitude of what needs to be resolved has grown into a daunting behemoth. We have seen some progress - LS's delivered, a new source for MFW amps last summer, UFW12-HR kits last fall - but we've also seen old habits linger (such as steering attention toward products that are still in development) and precious little indication of resolution for some of the more bothersome issues (payments to raffle charities, long-overdue refunds, RSL-II betas). I still like the idea of seeing some real and proper resolutions (something along the lines of Jed's vision), but I no longer feel that any action from AV123 will restore my trust in the organization or the individual in charge.


We must each decide how we will react to AV123's actions. For what it's worth, quad, I have no issue with that course of action - I think your reasons are perhaps more noble than Mark deserves, but I can understand your decision to stick to those reasons for your own peace of mind. I worry that ignoring the situation makes it easier for them to manipulate new customers, but it's not something I have any real control over - not when they have elected to control their forum traffic in such a way that dissent is invisible. I've got my own life to take care of, though, so I'm not going to beat my head against that particular wall. This thread provides some useful insight for those who find it, so I toss my two cents in here from time to time. I also email Mark every once in a while to see if he's doing anything. That's what I choose to do. Others choose to do more or to do less. We all have to decide for ourselves.
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As usual gonk.... you lay out some compelling, thought provoking insights in a concise, respectful manner. I too have been quite critical of MLS and some of the things that went on going back a couple of years ago. In fact, there for a while, I was on the big time black list of traditional MLS apologists Mac and Dave (buzz3) and a couple of others that aren't important enough to remember.

And, I don't know how I came off in the thread that has seemed to spur all of this debate, but one last time.... I equated not having out of production, out of warranty parts available to GM's handling of out of production, out of warranty parts for my vehicle. I also thought the "piling on" had gotten to be a bit much when the man was just out of the hospital and I said so.

That's it.... nothing more, nothing less. No hidden agenda, no stealth support, no nothing. Just how I saw things at that particular time.

Damn.... I didn't realize I had such a secret following hanging on my every word. Dissecting my written words or very appearance and participation on a board as if it had some secret agenda. Crap.... I better go back and look at my recent posts on my favorite tile forum. Starting a thread asking about taping and mudding the joint between my vanity counter top and back splash might be some humbly, bumbly, shifty way to make my shitter not smell so bad by getting some free AV123 speakers on the lamb.

Sorry gonk.... I'm just really fed up with all of this. I guess I just need to stay AWAY from all of the audio boards. That way I won't be accused of being some scum sucking paid shill with my nose so far up shifty's a$$ that I can't see any daylight until he unzips his fly.

I really am kind of tired of it all.

Sorry I unloaded in your post.... but DAY-UM.

:mad:
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
quadriverfalls said:
Ok Chu.... I get it. He's a vile, corrupt, less than human, devil serpant in your eyes. At one time, the man was my friend. It's quite difficult to see your friends dragged through this. It's equally difficult to imagine that someone you thought so highly of could actually do all of these things and that all of this stuff is true. No one likes to know, or feels good about the fact that someone they used to respect and care for could be capable of such things. Just as it's terrifying to think of all of the pain that's been caused.
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Quad, I know that. I understand that. He was a lot of people's friends. I also know it's difficult to see and read what's happening for some people - notably yourself with respect to all this. I may be a prick but I'm not completely heartless. You viewed him as your friend. Did he view you as his friend in his heart of hearts? Was Santiago and his family part of his family? Well, perhaps if you are privy as to how members of his family were exploited you might say yes. But did he really love them or even like them? Or were they spoken about so fondly because they had money?

Look.... I'm just trying to remain as detached as possible here. Please allow me that at least. I haven't tried to rain on your parade. I've not tried to beat my chest and tell what I do know as fact. Or to contradict you in areas where you may be wrong. I've respected your right to dig, dig and dig some more. I've respected your right to air your opinions while screaming from the rooftops and didn't say much at all.
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Quad, I understand that and I'm not asking you to become actively involved. I'm not asking you to speak out against him or the company. In our conversation a long time ago I told you some things and you told me some. Those have and will stay out of the public eye. If you can recall some of what I'd said then you'll see that my information wasn't off. Hard to believe. Inconsistent with personal experiences that I've not had. Incredulous.

My point, which I think is what prompted you to visit this thread was that your post with respect to the parts matter provided cover for Schifter. Nothing more. Nothing less. It's one point Quad and I am not judging you on that point. I'm disagreeing. I'm not judging you on your desire to remain removed from the active fray. Me, I can't do that and once again, I own no products and contributed to no raffles.

Please.... show me the same courtesy and respect my right to keep my opinions subdued and to myself without acting so incredulous that I don't loathe the guy.
Click to expand...
Again, Quad, I've not gone out and said you shouldn't keep your opinions subdued. If I have show me where I explicitly said that and I will apologize a 100 times. My incredulity is not directed towards you. My incredulity is that after all that's happened, all that's been made public, he still continues to lie about people, not pay them, and not start paying off on the raffles. He's like the bank robber who has a moment of conscience and decides to return some of the money. You can return it all. In the end you still robbed the bank.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
And Quad. One more thing. Humbly Bumbly is mine. I said it first. I want credit if you use it :D Why, I just might trademark it.
 
T

Tex-amp

Senior Audioholic
MLS indicted in Colorado on charity fraud!

Publish Date: 2/26/2010

Longmont man indicted on suspicion of charity fraud


© 2010 Longmont Times-Call

LONGMONT - A statewide grand jury on Friday indicted a Longmont man on suspicion of running illegal charity raffles, according to the Colorado Attorney General's Office.

Mark L. Schifter, 54, president of www.AV123.com and Perpetual Technologies, was accused in a five-count indictment of making to the tune of $180,000 by defrauding 707 people in 27 illegal raffles heled from 2004 through 2009. According to the attorney general's office, only $29,500 was distributed to charities. Some charities reported receiving nothing.

http://www.timescall.com/news_story.asp?ID=20988
 
M

mziegler

Audioholic
I think it is time to stop jumping Quad until unless he denounces Shifty from the mountain top--it gets indecent after a while. He just wants to withhold scolding, which is fine because Chu and others are keeping the subject front and center, which I think is a good thing.

There is what is now former colleague at my school who was arrested for lewd behavior. He is probably guilty, but then I had many interesting conversations with him over the years. I try to remain an agnostic about him, especially in my public comments.

Not the same, I know, and schifty sure looks like a low-life to me, but I respect Quad for not hurling rocks--it is different when one "knows" the person.
 
T

Tex-amp

Senior Audioholic
The date on the indictment is yesterday the 25th. I guess we now know why the continuance of Ninja's case as they had other legal matters at the same time.
 
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