DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
django1 said:
Well, you guys may be right about all the sociopath, money hungry etc stuff but I don't see enough evidence of that to draw that type of conclusion. By and large, when the speakers are delivered they are, imo, terrific value for the money. Hardly the mo of a sociopathic con man is it, I mean, delivering value for money?

For me, with what I know now, the only thing that is really nasty and totally un-ethical is the raffle money"underfunding". In second place comes lying about delivery of pre-paid product.
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Well, let's not call it money hungry then Let's call it bad or irresponsible financial management. Product and monies were comingled: AV123, Graham Company, MLS. Too much money was taken out of the company such that they were cash poor with an inability to pay their vendors, suppliers, contract people or properly fund new products. For that matter, there were no contingency plans for when things go wrong. Call it the ability to allocate resources in anticipation of unknown, but possible doomsday scenarios. Companies that are reliant upon computers, have backup plans in case of catastrophic failures. Unfortunately most of our government bodies lack such plans when it comes to allocating resources for the inevitable infrastructure repairs. They all know roads have a finite lifetime, so do bridges, tunnels, and water mains. For MLS, one of the problems was that he had all his eggs in one basket. There was no alternate supplier of amps.

The personal lifestyle of the president was such if cash flows were slowed, he had personal needs that could not be shared with those closest to him that raffle monies were able to provide.

As to questioning whether the modus operandi of a con man is contrary to providing value for money, actually it can be integral part of the con. Cons invariably incorporate and weave truths. It's part of the sell. Tell the folks or give the folks something that's largely unimpeachable. Rockets are highly attractive speakers that have been favorably reviewed by publications as well as users. We'll forget for a moment the UltimateAV review. MLS has provided attractive and affordable speakers for those on a budget. MLS has interceded when it comes to specific problems here and there. These are all essentially truths. Maybe not 100% but close enough. Now you can weave these truths and extrapolate them further. The further they're extrapolated, the less they become truths and start to exhibit falsehoods more and more. Finally, they become largely lies. The RSL-II. The HR upgrades that were just a few months away (years ago). That wave guide thing. The refunds that never came or came with rubber checks. Having to build out speakers in the US because China can't seem to do it right. Con man? Incompetence? To my mind he moves from one area to the next depending upon the circumstances. And regardless of how some of these things may be rationalized, with respect to Colorado Laws pertaining to consumer rights, they were patently violated and subject to penalties.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I have some additional raffle information

I was forwarded an email by someone who was looking into one of the raffles on my behalf. I guess if you're predisposed to think so, you can consider this me marshalling a lynch mob.

On page 73 of this thread, I listed a summation of raffles, amounts, winners, prizes that were compiled by an AV123 member. One of the raffles I had an interest in were those contributed to Ballet Nouveau or what MLS refers to as Gracie's Ballet Company.

What follows below, are the dates and amounts raised for this organization.

October 18, 2004
$5,250

October 24, 2005
$10,000

December 12, 2007
$7,500​

Total amounts said to have been raised = $22,750

Now, the email text which was sent by Amanda Stewart who is employed by Ballet Nouveau.

I looked through our records and we received a donation of $7,500 from Perpetual Technologies in November 2005. It looks like that is the only cash contribution we received over the years, in addition to some in kind contributions for our annual silent auction.



Thank you for your patience while I researched this,

Amanda
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This strongly suggests that MLS entirely diverted the results of both the 2004 and 2007 raffles. Only 3/4 of the amounts of the 2005 raffles went to their intended recipients. There is a total shortfall of $15,250!

I don't know how you all count it, but I say this brings to four the number of people/organizations who were either underfunded or not funded at all.

I'm still working (sitting on my arse!) for a reply from the American Red Cross for the Hurrican Katrina raffle.
 
D

david-me

Audioholic Intern
Chu Gai said:
I'm still working (sitting on my arse!) for a reply from the American Red Cross for the Hurrican Katrina raffle.
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Screwing that one up would strike a nerve in the industry. Would it not ?
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
david-me said:
Screwing that one up would strike a nerve in the industry. Would it not ?
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I can't think of the countless ways that's wrong. It becomes part of the long story of people who gouged the suffering, stole from them, looted, hurt them, and you can add your own horror story to that. Would you do business with an operation that lied on that one? Would you want to be known as one?

 
Soundman

Soundman

Audioholic Field Marshall
Chu Gai said:
I can't think of the countless ways that's wrong. It becomes part of the long story of people who gouged the suffering, stole from them, looted, hurt them, and you can add your own horror story to that. Would you do business with an operation that lied on that one? Would you want to be known as one?

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So true, Chu!
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
Just the theft from the ballet raffles is substantial. Any "underfunding" of the Katrina raffles (which generated something like $40,000) would be a huge mess, but the ballet raffle information Chu's just posted already indicates two things:

It indicates that Mark has been stealing from the raffles since day one. The very first raffle held, back in 2004, was for the ballet company, and none of that money reached the ballet. That by itself opens a huge can of worms both legally and from a credibility standpoint. Should we assume that any of the $33,000+ in raffles for the orphanage went to orphans?

It also reinforces the problems we already saw with Mark's "admission". He stated that he underfunded two raffles, and when pressed further he got defensive. Now, that "two" has always represented two causes (and thus six raffles) - a fact that is not obvious unless you do your research - and he later identified those two as Sloan/Kettering and Derek Wayland. He never said anything about Hugh's friend, which would be a third cause and an additional three raffles. Now we've added a fourth cause and three more raffles. That's four causes and a dozen raffles, with somewhere between $50,000+ and $60,000+ in money still unaccounted for. That's perilously close to a full quarter of the total funds generated by all of the raffles.

Oh, dear...
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Khabarovsk raffles are indeed substantial and due to the distance, lack of direct internet access, and language barriers are proving to be exceedingly difficult to verify. Orphanages in Russia, and in that particular section of Russia are commonplace. From my cursory research on the web, donations there are not unusual but are usually funded through agencies that do adoption business in that area. IOW, short of bringing clothes and toys over there, it's difficult to find ways to direct donate especially something like monies. But as you note, Gonk, from day one funny business was going on.

His paranormal powers are said to be so strong, Medusa fears looking at him. He once wrote checks just to see if they'd bounce higher than a super ball. He's the most interesting man in the world. "I don't always give to raffles, but when I do, I take the fifth. Stay charitable my friends."
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
Mr. Quintana...I see you are little sensitive:
Gonk, if you read the AH thread this morning, Mr. Gai, and Mr, Chang are shots at me. So apparently, it's OK to have civil discussion here, and no where else.
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Mr. Quintana, if you think my post was a shot at you, I suggest you get a thicker skin. You only believe it is more civil on the AV123 thread because you have direct or indirect control over the posts. That is called a safe haven, especially if you think the moderators here are not doing their job.
 
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C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
cschang said:
Mr. Quintana...I see you are little sensitive:

Mr. Quintana, if you think my post was a shot at you, I suggest you get a thicker skin. You only believe it is more civil on the AV123 thread because you have direct or indirect control over the posts. That is called a safe haven, especially if you think the moderators here are not doing their job.
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Hehehe...Boy's got to grow some stones!
 
T

Tex-amp

Senior Audioholic
Chu Gai said:
I was forwarded an email by someone who was looking into one of the raffles on my behalf. I guess if you're predisposed to think so, you can consider this me marshalling a lynch mob.

On page 73 of this thread, I listed a summation of raffles, amounts, winners, prizes that were compiled by an AV123 member. One of the raffles I had an interest in were those contributed to Ballet Nouveau or what MLS refers to as Gracie's Ballet Company.

What follows below, are the dates and amounts raised for this organization.

October 18, 2004
$5,250

October 24, 2005
$10,000

December 12, 2007
$7,500​

Total amounts said to have been raised = $22,750

Now, the email text which was sent by Amanda Stewart who is employed by Ballet Nouveau.



This strongly suggests that MLS entirely diverted the results of both the 2004 and 2007 raffles. Only 3/4 of the amounts of the 2005 raffles went to their intended recipients. There is a total shortfall of $15,250!

I don't know how you all count it, but I say this brings to four the number of people/organizations who were either underfunded or not funded at all.

I'm still working (sitting on my arse!) for a reply from the American Red Cross for the Hurrican Katrina raffle.
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How in the world do you explain to your grandchild that you used them to con people out of their money?
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Tex-amp said:
How in the world do you explain to your grandchild that you used them to con people out of their money?
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Well, that's a good question. Understand though, that AV123/Perpetual Technologies is composed of three people: Mark, his wife Lynn, and step-daughter, Suzanne. It would not surprise me if all three may wind up having to answer to the authorities as well as Gracie.

Q. What do you say to MLS in a three piece suit?
A. Will the defendent please rise.

Gallows humor.
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
Its interesting the donation that was given was on behalf of Perpetual Technologies to the Ballet but the money to solicit the raffle funds on the AV123 forum were through the Graham Company. This would make AV123 partially liable for this activity, no?

AV123 employees have always mantained AV123 is a separate entitity to the Graham company which is one reason for the lack of resolutions. This is evidence that they are commingled.
 
C

cschang

Audioholic Chief
Good observation.

As I mentioned before, the people involved goes beyond MLS. I just wonder how far.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
MinusTheBear said:
Its interesting the donation that was given was on behalf of Perpetual Technologies to the Ballet but the money to solicit the raffle funds on the AV123 forum were through the Graham Company. This would make AV123 partially liable for this activity, no?

AV123 employees have always mantained AV123 is a separate entitity to the Graham company which is one reason for the lack of resolutions. This is evidence that they are commingled.
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It's such a clusterphuck Minus. I agree there's a lot of comingling going on. How he does his taxes is beyond me.
 
GirgleMirt

GirgleMirt

Audioholic
MinusTheBear said:
Its interesting the donation that was given was on behalf of Perpetual Technologies to the Ballet but the money to solicit the raffle funds on the AV123 forum were through the Graham Company. This would make AV123 partially liable for this activity, no?

AV123 employees have always mantained AV123 is a separate entitity to the Graham company which is one reason for the lack of resolutions. This is evidence that they are commingled.
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It shouldn't matter at all in courts. The charity raffle was by Mark Schifter, president of av123.com, on the official av123.com forums, they were labeled av123.com raffles... Using Graham was probably an attempt to separate av123.com from the raffles, but legally it shouldn't hold up as the company was definitely involved in this fraud. I'd love to see anyone try to make a case for av123.com not being involved in the charity frauds...

Jed: I feel somehow responsible and guilty for your last couple of posts... I just want to clarify that not all av123.com were mobsters, fanboys, morons or idiots (which I don't think I've ever said these 2 though...), or whatever other thing that might have been said... Hell, I have an account there... But just that many members there qualified. If you're not one of those, and I truly can say I didn't have you in mind in any of this, then you shouldn't feel targeted in the least...

But as Chu Gai said, imho, it was, is, all part of the problem. When anyone asks about the raffle, for example, it doesn't take 5 minutes before 10 fanboys chastise him for being an hater, a basher, someone with an axe to grind and I don't know what other imbecility. If av123.com fanboys weren't so brainwashed, there probably would already have been resolutions to many issues, and Schifter would probably not have gotten the latitude he had to steal from charities, screw people with pre-orders, etc.
 
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