DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

picture_shooter said:

I did not read all the 100+ pages, but even people got shafted on the raffles? I remember putting money into those.

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For at least three of the raffles that we know of, at the very best, only a partial amount of the proceeds were actually ever donated to the charities.

picture_shooter said:

Wait a sec.... I must be out of the loop man!!

I did not read all the 100+ pages, but even people got shafted on the raffles? I remember putting money into those.

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MLS has admitted to "underfunding" (to borrow his term) two raffles. We know that of the three raffles for Derek Wayland, one for Dave Fabrikant (which had a matching raffle running concurrently to benefit a Russian orphanage), and at least one for a friend of Hugh (the friend is known to have passed away before the collected money could be delivered), a pretty significant portion of the donated proceeds were not delivered. Only half of the money meant to go to Sloan Kettering for Fabrikant's raffle was delivered ($3000 out of a bit over $6000 collected). We don't have specific numbers on the others, but we know they are if anything more significantly impacted - the three raffles combined for around $35000 for Derek, and at last report most remains undelivered. Many of us believed the two raffles MLS had referred to were the trio of raffles for Derek and the raffle (or raffles) for Hugh's friend, partly because some people had theorized that the missing money in Fabrikant's raffle could be explained by using proceeds to pay list price for the prizes. Recently, however, MLS has specified that the two raffles in question are Fabrikant's and Derek's.

stevo238 said:

So Joe, did the AG's office offer any advice or help in going after Shifter? Did they recommend a group action?

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They did and more information is coming. I'm not a attorney nor can I presume what laws have been broken, but the AG's office was willing to listen and help. I let them know that I wasn't the only one which is why I am posting for people to contact me.

I've contacted HTS, AVS, and a few others for their assistance. The desire being to put enough pressure on Mark so that he has to fix things, or put him out of business, or in jail.

Unfortunately because of my work schedule and inability to communicate with the AG's office while at work, time difference, etc, it may not happen real quickly. Most is being done via email. Yay internet!

I had totally forgotten about the raffles, thanks Gonk!

I may never get my money back, but it feels good to stand up for oneself!

--joe

Jongaro, I will get my stuff together and send it to you. It may be stuff you already have as 90% is public but I am ready to get law enforcement involved. My stuff is mostly raffle involved. Mark has just really offended me on so many levels I never imagined what I feel right now could be possible. Privately Mark has let me down is so many ways its crushing. Stuff I don't want to even talk about anymore. Give me a couple days and I will pm you.

gonk said:

MLS has admitted to "underfunding" (to borrow his term) two raffles. We know that of the three raffles for Derek Wayland, one for Dave Fabrikant (which had a matching raffle running concurrently to benefit a Russian orphanage), and at least one for a friend of Hugh (the friend is known to have passed away before the collected money could be delivered), a pretty significant portion of the donated proceeds were not delivered. Only half of the money meant to go to Sloan Kettering for Fabrikant's raffle was delivered ($3000 out of a bit over $6000 collected). We don't have specific numbers on the others, but we know they are if anything more significantly impacted - the three raffles combined for around $35000 for Derek, and at last report most remains undelivered. Many of us believed the two raffles MLS had referred to were the trio of raffles for Derek and the raffle (or raffles) for Hugh's friend, partly because some people had theorized that the missing money in Fabrikant's raffle could be explained by using proceeds to pay list price for the prizes. Recently, however, MLS has specified that the two raffles in question are Fabrikant's and Derek's.

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Just thought I would clairify:
Here are the 4 raffles MLS held for my daughter, which raised total of $39,000.... (No further comment.)

2007
12. 1 pair RS1000’s, 1 RSC 200 Big Foot, 1 pair RS450’s (for the rear channels), 1 pair RS250’s (for the side axis channels) and 2 UFW-12’s with installation by Mark Schifter and Mark Seaton
Reason - Derek Wayland Family (Kaeleigh "Bemi" Wayland)
Date August 28, 2007
25 dollars per ticket X 500 = $12,500.00
Winner – New2AVS

13. 1 pair RS1000’s, 1 RSC 200 Big Foot, 1 pair RS450’s (for the rear channels), 1 pair RS250’s (for the side axis channels) and 2 UFW-12’s with installation by Mark Schifter and Mark Seaton (Courtesy of
New2AVS)
Reason (re-raffle) - Derek Wayland Family (Kaeleigh "Bemi" Wayland)
Date October 18, 2007
25 dollars per ticket X 500 = $12,500.00
Winner – TBD

14. 1 pair LS-6 demo set from the 2007 RMAF
1 set of Complete Acoustic Room Treatment Set: 2 Bass Trap Tables and 4 Veneered Framed Acoustic Absorption Panels.
(The room treatment set is courtesy of Santiago and Cali Team)
Reason - "Our Bemi"
Date October 22, 2007
50 dollars per ticket X 200 = $10,000.00
Winner - Craig Chase (Craigsub)

2008

18. MLS raffled off his own, personal #04694/11111 Michael Schumacher (limited edition) Omega Speedmaster Racing (World Championship) watch.
Reason - To benefit Derek Wayland Family
Date - 10-24-08
200 tickets at $20 dollars = $4,000

Interesting "winners". Aside of the proceeds, do we know if the prizes have been delivered?

Wow, 39 grand, what kind of insurance do you have? You'd think a decent plan would have an out of pocket maximum that would limit it to far less than that.

NicolasKL said:

Wow, 39 grand, what kind of insurance do you have? You'd think a decent plan would have an out of pocket maximum that would limit it to far less than that.

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I don't think this is the right thread to be discussing health insurance. Might get a little heated.

NicolasKL said:

Wow, 39 grand, what kind of insurance do you have? You'd think a decent plan would have an out of pocket maximum that would limit it to far less than that.

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#1. I did NOT ask for these raffles and had "0" to do with thier creation, therefore I had NOTHING to do with the $ ammount raised.
#2. See #1.
#3. I really don't appreciate having to defend myself over and over again.
#4. I was astounded by all who contributed, but unfortunatly, to date, the raffles have not done what they had origionally intended.

Seems to me the one thing all these raffles have in common is nobody asked for them, but Mark wanted to do them and insisted in some cases.

Derek, you should not have to defend yourself about stuff, but I certainly understand the sentiment. Maybe it would help if you spoke out more about what has transpired. I know you have said a few things, and I know you did so with reluctance, and I totally get that. BUT, this issue needs clarity, and you are one of the few people who can really bring that to the table.

I understand and will not think less of you if you don't want more of this "exposure", but maybe a complete discussion of it will help limit how many times it gets brought up.

dwayland said:

#1. I did NOT ask for these raffles and had "0" to do with thier creation, therefore I had NOTHING to do with the $ ammount raised.
#2. See #1.
#3. I really don't appreciate having to defend myself over and over again.
#4. I was astounded by all who contributed, but unfortunatly, to date, the raffles have not done what they had origionally intended.

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droht said:

Derek, you should not have to defend yourself about stuff, but I certainly understand the sentiment. Maybe it would help if you spoke out more about what has transpired. I know you have said a few things, and I know you did so with reluctance, and I totally get that. BUT, this issue needs clarity, and you are one of the few people who can really bring that to the table.

I understand and will not think less of you if you don't want more of this "exposure", but maybe a complete discussion of it will help limit how many times it gets brought up.

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I agree w/you 100%.

Bottom line? Allot of $ was raised for us. How much has been actually delivered? Roughly 12.82% by my calculations and 50% of that (actually more, now that I think of it) was sent directly to me from another contributor, not from MLS.

Why do I chose to remain mostly silent? Well, I guess am too much of a nice guy and continue to have some faith in MLS. What really makes this all so painful for me is that I have sent many reminder emails and some those were rather desperate (prior to me cashing out my retirement and dealing with a possible layoff situation) and heard little in return.

MLS has sent a "few" emails promising to make good on his promises. They do sound truly genuine, so for that I am cutting him a little slack. I want to believe in him. I want to be able to continue to call him friend. It's just hard knowing that he has so much of YOUR $ and that it was misused. The money raised should NEVER HAVE BEEN USED FOR MLS'S OWN PERSONAL BAILOUT(PERIOD)

Promises mean little. Delivering on them means everything.

D

p.s. Since this is spread over at least 3 forums that I know of, questions will continue to be brought up no matter what I say.

Derek, IMO, he is not your friend...nor is he trying to be.

He used your unfortunate circumstance for his own personal gain.

The situation that led MLS to run these raffles is not really something that deserves debating here. The specific costs, insurance situation, and who-knows-what don't belong here. For that matter, if anyone should be in the hot seat, it is NOT Derek. The mistakes all lie (no pun intended) with MLS. The responsibility to make things right (as much as possible at this woefully late date) is his alone.

Those are some daunting numbers, Derek. The percent delivered directly from MLS is even worse than I'd feared. I've privately told MLS that you have done him a kindness that few would have with your handling of the situation he has created. I doubt I or my family could have shown anywhere near the patience if we were to be in your shoes. He'd have found himself with an angry crowd at his front door long ago, I suspect. It's really, really sad, and every time he offers responses that sound sincere or genuine without following through with appropriate actions it just makes it that much harder to believe anything he says...

These raffles took place over 15 months and by my horrible math skills, Mark delivered less than 3k of the money. So Mark has unaccounted for around 33k in just this, as he would call it, "one" raffle. Anybody care to defend him now? This lasted for 4 raffles over the course of a year and a half and he not once, not twice, not three times, but four times took advantage of Derek and all of us. It makes me literally sick knowing that all of that money was stolen from our community, our families, our friends and if I am going to be brutally honest with myself, it will never be repaid. This isn't just a couple hundred or a thousand here or there. That is a significant amount of money and its just "one" of the raffles he admitted to. It makes me sick to know I funded his bailout, as Derek put it.

I have been thinking about my relationship with Mark these last few days and have given up on getting a reply to my emails. What gives him the right to deny sick children and terminal fathers their rightful comfort? Underfunding implies that HE made a promise to pay money to a charity. That is not at all what happened. The only reason the charities didn't get the money in this case is because he STOLE the money out of the charity jar. The money was there. There was absolutely ZERO underfunding, he just took it, then selfishly denied innocent, SICK people THEIR money.

cschang said:

Derek, IMO, he is not your friend...nor is he trying to be.

He used your unfortunate circumstance for his own personal gain.

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I second that.

There's only one thing that can drive a person that relentlessly and it's having had too many of these (yes, it's real).

http://www.neatorama.com/upcoming/thumbs/2009/07/21/An-Energy-Drink-Called-Big-meat-m.jpg

Jed M said:

The only reason the charities didn't get the money in this case is because he STOLE the money out of the charity jar. The money was there. There was absolutely ZERO underfunding, he just took it, then selfishly denied innocent, SICK people THEIR money.

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Of course... Was there any doubt?

I can't believe, if there isn't, that there isn't some kind of governmental organization which actually devotes itself to making sure such raffles and donated money doesn't go directly in the pockets of crooks like Mark Schifter...

At worst, there would be the local authorities, then who, or what? Here you have the provincial and federal who do random tax verification, and I'm sure they'd cover such things... How difficult would it be to get the USA equivalent involved? It really shouldn't be difficult... Hell, when they've raised what, over 100k in 'charity' raffles, 200k maybe over a couple of years, can't see how difficult it would be to get them involved...

How did this possibly not happen yet?

And let's face it, this isn't a small offense... It's definitely serious criminal behavior...

How could the authorities and tax verification people not be all over this?!


And btw, avsforum.com, makes me want to kill myself. So many oblivious and just plainly brain dead people over there... Curtis and Chu Gai... Omg... I don't know how you guys can deal with people like this... I wouldn't last 20 mins in that thread, I'd certainly get banned for obscenities and adhoms... And I'd probably be thankful for it... If there was ever some comments which would make me want to hit my head on a wall... They're there. Browsed the av12 forum a couple days ago, some fools are still excited about napkin drawings... Anyhow... Unbelievable...

dwayland said:

#1. I did NOT ask for these raffles and had "0" to do with thier creation, therefore I had NOTHING to do with the $ ammount raised.
#2. See #1.

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I didn't say that you did.

#3. I really don't appreciate having to defend myself over and over again.

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I simply asked a question (that I think is a somewhat obvious one) because I was curious, I wasn't accusing you of anything.

And I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you had defended yourself as I've never seen it.

I think you read something into my question that wasn't there (or at least that I didn't intend to be there).

But now the fact that you're so over the top defensive about the situation, combined with the fact that you say you never asked for the raffles and didn't have any input as to the dollar amount, yet (IIRC) you had your OWN raffle for the same purpose after all the other raffles, has now made me suspicious.

dwayland said:

I agree w/you 100%.

Bottom line? Allot of $ was raised for us. How much has been actually delivered? Roughly 12.82% by my calculations and 50% of that (actually more, now that I think of it) was sent directly to me from another contributor, not from MLS.

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Well now that makes things different, obviously the medical bills would very easily run over 5 grand. I wouldn't hold back that figure, because to be honest (and this is just my brutally honest opinion, which I know is completely unsolicited and I'm sure will not be appreciated by many or all), not knowing that figure makes the whole situation start to look shady, whereas knowing the figure just makes things look like business as usual for MLS.