What's the Deal with Setting Speakers to Large vs Small??? Why SMALL???

[bizmord]

here is something I still don't get...

Every time people do automatic room calibration whether it's with YAPO or Audyssey ... these systems set speakers to Large (full range) whether speakers are bookshelves or full range. Then, I hear every one says ... change your speakers to be SMALL and cross over at 80.

but is that accurate for both movies and music???


I think that for movies, you should have speakers set to Large and for music, do cross over at whatever 60, 80, 100.

Reasoning. ...... tell me if I got it wrong .........

1. For music .. I get it .... let sub handle the deep bass and don't strain speakers. Plus .. sub may handle it better even at 80hz or 100hz than the speakers.

2. For movies. I always thought that in movies they even call it the LFE (low frequency...) meaning that ... the way sound editors edit movies is they pick and choose what sound should be dropped to the LFE (Sub) and what sound can go to speakers. Thus if we filter out speakers producing 60hz 80hz, we miss on the sound that was meant to be in the movie ... no?? just curious. And even if Sub does pick that sound at 40, 60, 80hz, it's not surround, so does it really reproduce what speakers should have produced?

maybe I am way off here, but that was my understanding.

 

[j_garcia]

Basically, it entirely depends on your speakers. In your case, you might be able to get away with setting them at 60Hz rather than the common 80Hz, since they claim to be -6dB @ 44Hz (which realistically means -3dB is likely closer to 50-55Hz). I'd try 60Hz and 80Hz and see which sounds better. That has no bearing on what you are playing, the setting is the setting is the setting; based on what your speakers are capable of. If you had towers that were capable of getting down into the low 20s, then large might be a more appropriate setting, with the sub handling the bottom octave. So, if you want the sub for music, then small it is. For movies, there is no question you pretty much always want the sub for the heavy lifting. The goal is to provide smooth response across the entire range, so the settings should be tweaked with that in mind - properly blending the sub to your mains to get the most out of both together.

You have it backwards too IMO; for music, it can be more beneficial to set your speakers to large, to get cleaner sound, aka; no sub and no crossover. I find that is less of an issue with a system that has been Audessey EQ'ed, as it often does a decent job at least at figuring out what some of your main room mode issues are, though I've had it incorrectly set my speakers to large as well (-3dB at 55Hz).

LFE is not the same as bass; it is a separate channel with the Low Frequency Effects. BASS is still managed by the receiver and is sent to the appropriate speaker based on the setting you've chosen. Unless you have setup your system with NO sub, LFE will always go to the sub regardless of the crossover you've chosen. Bass is not directional (below around 120Hz) so you CAN have bass from surround information and your brain won't be able to tell the difference if your system is properly setup.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

THX is for movies. And THX standard is setting speakers to small and XO @ 80 Hz.

Some AVR will decrease LFE output to subs if you set speakers to Large.

And, of course, if your speakers cannot handle 20-40Hz, then why stress them out?

 

[cschang]

Basically, it entirely depends on your speakers. In your case, you might be able to get away with setting them at 60Hz rather than the common 80Hz, since they claim to be -6dB @ 44Hz (which realistically means -3dB is likely closer to 50-55Hz).

The claim is actually -3db at 44hz.

 

[j_garcia]

The claim is actually -3db at 44hz.

No, it is +/-3dB at 44Hz, which means most likely the -3dB isn't 44Hz.

 

[cschang]

No, it is +/-3dB at 44Hz, which means most likely the -3dB isn't 44Hz.

Got it...I understand where you are coming from.

I actually cross mine at 80hz anyways.

 

[PENG]

here is something I still don't get..

Every time people do automatic room calibration whether it's with YAPO or Audyssey ... these systems set speakers to Large (full range) whether speakers are bookshelves or full range. Then, I hear every one says ... change your speakers to be SMALL and cross over at 80.

Looks like Audyssey is not winning in their attempt to explain to people that they are not responsible for setting speakers to small. They explained regularly to people that it is the receiver itself that sets speakers to large, not Audyssey.

Regarding the cross over frequencies, as others have commented, what works best will depend mostly on the characteristics of your speakers, but for most floor standing speakers, you can't go too wrong with 60 to 80 Hz.

 

[j_garcia]

Does Audessey actually tell you to make that setting (small) before running it? I don't recall the Emotiva manual mentioning it before running their calibration, but then I don't always read the manual too closely

 

[Pyrrho]

...
Regarding the cross over frequencies, as others have commented, what works best will depend mostly on the characteristics of your speakers, but for most floor standing speakers, you can't go too wrong with 60 to 80 Hz.

Yes, this.

If one is wanting to reproduce the entire frequency spectrum that is recorded, one should direct the frequencies to the speakers that can actually reproduce them. This has nothing whatsoever to do with whether one is listening to music or watching a movie.

What many people do, however, is adjust their subwoofer to a higher level than what it would be to give one an accurate reproduction of the recorded signal, because they like it with movies, and then complain that using a subwoofer makes their music too boomy. Well, of course, if one sets the subwoofer too high, then there will be an unnaturally excessive amount of bass and it will be boomy. If one sets it for a flat frequency response, the subwoofer should be used for everything, unless one's main speakers are as good at reproducing deep bass as one's subwoofer, which is almost never the case.

 

[PENG]

Does Audessey actually tell you to make that setting (small) before running it? I don't recall the Emotiva manual mentioning it before running their calibration, but then I don't always read the manual too closely

They tell you to do it after, because they know the receiver will set them to large and there is nothing Audyssey could do to prevent that, apparently.

 

[Rippyman]

What I find funny is that all these AVR manufactureres who have Audyssey built into their recievers haven't developed a system that allows the AVR and Audyssey to communicate with each other properly.

 

[j_garcia]

They tell you to do it after, because they know the receiver will set them to large and there is nothing Audyssey could do to prevent that, apparently.

I suppose Emo's is similar then because it did the same thing to me.

 

[PENG]

What I find funny is that all these AVR manufactureres who have Audyssey built into their recievers haven't developed a system that allows the AVR and Audyssey to communicate with each other properly.

I agree with you, but on the other hand I actually don't mind that at all because that way we know whether our speakers in our specific rooms can actually function as "large" or "small" as defined. If the receiver manufacturer gives up that control and let Audyssey dictates, then it will almost always set our speakers to small and we would not know, not easily anyway, whether they have sufficient bass response in the specific room to be deemed "large". As it is now, we can know from the measurements whether our speakers are factually speaking, "large" as defined, yet we have the ultimate control to set them to small afterward; and enjoy more accurate/powerful bass, by following Audyssey's recommendations to let the sub handle everything below 80 Hz (just an example).

Since my preference/opinion don't count, I will email Audyssey with the very same questions. From past experience, they typically responded within a few days so I can hopeful.

 

[afterlife2]

Does anybody change the Bass settings for movies and another for music? I tend to keep it the same for both. After the mic aud I do my test with Jazz bass CD's to round off the sound I like for both Movie and Music.

 

[ahblaza]

I have been reading a lot of speaker sub reco's and how to manage the bass, I'm seeing a lot of using both the reciver's Xover and the sub's Xover, doing this according to the literature allows one to lower the Xover for the mains and have a smoother transition over to the sub. Am I missing something using both sub's and receivers xover together, I always thought this was a no no, please correct me if I'm wrong (usually I am).
Cheers Jeff

 

[Pyrrho]

I have been reading a lot of speaker sub reco's and how to manage the bass, I'm seeing a lot of using both the reciver's Xover and the sub's Xover, doing this according to the literature allows one to lower the Xover for the mains and have a smoother transition over to the sub. Am I missing something using both sub's and receivers xover together, I always thought this was a no no, please correct me if I'm wrong (usually I am).
Cheers Jeff

If you set things correctly with your speakers and subwoofer, using just the receiver's crossover, you should have a smooth transition between the speakers and the subwoofer. To set it properly, you need to set the crossover frequency above the -3dB point of the speakers, because by then your speakers are already 3dB down and not as capable as they are higher up. In my case, my speakers are rated 50-40,000Hz +/-3dB, so I need to set the crossover above 50Hz. I set it at 80Hz. At 60Hz, it is likely that I would already be encountering the downward slope of the frequency response of the speaker, so that is likely too low. 80Hz works well.

I would not use both the crossover in the receiver and the subwoofer. It is likely to give you a dip in the frequency response, as both are filtering out frequencies above some point for the subwoofer, and their combined effects are likely to give an overly steep slope, reducing the total volume in the crossover region. Also, using both crossovers does not make the main speakers more capable of producing deep bass, so it is ridiculous to suppose that using both would enable one to lower the crossover frequency for the main speakers. Just use the crossover in your receiver, and bypass the one in the subwoofer (or, if that is not possible, set the crossover in the subwoofer to its highest frequency setting).

 

[fuzz092888]

It's even better if you get actual in room measurements so that you know the -3db point accounting for room gain. Without doing a little measuring it would have been impossible to figure out the smoothest overall response for all 9 speakers to 3 subwoofers. Once you have that many variables going on measuring equipment becomes essential.

Doubling up on the crossover at the same point will create a dip in the response at the xover point. Having multiple crossover points will create a jagged mess.

 

[PENG]

For all the reasons mentioned, it is time to get XT32 to do the bass management. I am convinced that it is doing a better job than XT for my subs in my room. Without Audyssey (even just XT), I used to spend many frustrating hours trying to dial in my subwoofer but not any more. If I were to give up on Audyssey some day, I will definitely get a higher end sub such as one of those JL audio, as I have no intention nor the confidence to do it right with just a bunch of knobs.

 

[Steve81]

I have no intention nor the confidence to do it right with just a bunch of knobs.

I'm sure some of the guys here would be willing to work with you on your knob handling skills

 

[STRONGBADF1]

I'm sure some of the guys here would be willing to work with you on your knob handling skills

Bazinga!!!