Custom Power Cord Question

Status
Not open for further replies.
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
That's just it, an opinion. His opinion doesn't count more than anyone else and he stated that. Just as how you have your own opinions everyone is entitled to theirs. Do you honestly believe you are the first person to tell him what you wrote? Does he care? :rolleyes:. There is no need to start an argument which will lead to flaming just like every other post on this subject and many others.
Seriously, if you think my one-sentence post was disrespectful, inflammatory, rude, or otherwise, I'd love for you to point it out.

I was not arguing. YOU'RE the one who seems intent on starting an argument. So far you've extended my one-sentence suggestion into a full page's worth of bickering.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
FYI,
Power cords are not interchangable. A PC or small wall wart might include a 16 AWG or 18 AWG power cable with would not be appropriate for a high current HT amplifier. The same thing happens when you use a long/small gauge extension cord to connect a table saw or other power tools. More resistance = voltage drop = draw more current from the outlet.

It is a safe assumption, however, that a manufacturer will include the appropriate power cord and wire gauge with the device and you will see no performance increase by "upgrading" the power cord.
That's true JC,
Here is a link to the different IEC-320 Connectors along with their different temp ratings and ampacities.
http://www.accesscomms.com.au/reference/IEC320.htm
 
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
Well, I'm going to stick myself out here and tell you that I have spent money on after market AC cords. Because, especially with my CD player, they made a subtle but important improvement in sound. I did not spend $8000, but $80 for the amp (from Signal Cable) and $35 for the CDp (a $110 Audioquest NRG-2 off eBay) With the CD player, a Rotel RDC 1070, it deepened the soundstage (made it more 3D) and improved the bass definition and extension. It also allowed the player to extract just a bit more detail. For instance, on track 7 of Freddy Cole's "Music Maestro Please", it made the difference of being able to hear the saliva "tick" in his mouth as he began a new phrase. With the stock cord, that very detail disappears- can't be heard.


Now, I realize by posting this, I'm opening up myself for attack (I'm an idiot, a fool, a victim of some industry wide corporate conspiracy). But the truth is, I think for myself; I don't read Hifi magazines and I often think the guys at my high end shop are full of it. I listen to what they say, and what you guys post, then I form my own opinions. And my opinion, which is supported by my experience is that in my system, an after market AC cord can indeed be heard.

(BTW, I do have a dedicated outlet powering my system-I hooked it up myself during a vacation for about $30 in materials)
In my postion i bought a Carver AV 505 AMP off Audiogone and it didn't come with a power cord , so i tryed a PC power cord and worked fine .
Remember im using it for 5.1 , so the soundstage is not as critical as 2 channel system , like yours Brett , also your equipment is a little higher end than my Amp ( carver ) / Pre ( Marantz ) and i only use this system for movies only and never for music ( By the way very nice 2 channel setup ) .
 
Last edited:
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
FYI,
Power cords are not interchangable. A PC or small wall wart might include a 16 AWG or 18 AWG power cable with would not be appropriate for a high current HT amplifier. The same thing happens when you use a long/small gauge extension cord to connect a table saw or other power tools. More resistance = voltage drop = draw more current from the outlet.

It is a safe assumption, however, that a manufacturer will include the appropriate power cord and wire gauge with the device and you will see no performance increase by "upgrading" the power cord.
I think my New PC draws just as much as my AMP :eek: . Frikkin new Video card is Huge and my new Intel chip ( i miss the good old AMD days ) is power pig . By the way my Power supply in my new puter is 600 watts .
 
Last edited:
1

10010011

Senior Audioholic
I think my New PC draws just as much as my AMP :eek: . Frikkin new Video card is Huge and my new Intel chip ( i miss the good old AMD days ) is power pig . By the way my Power supply in my new puter is 600 watts .
Yeah, no sheit ;) The power supply for my SLI gaming rig was a 600 Watt too and it came with a 12 gauge power cord. I am pretty sure it is using more power than my HTS as it sure kicks out a hell of a lot more heat under normal conditions.
 
G

gus6464

Audioholic Samurai
I think my New PC draws just as much as my AMP :eek: . Frikkin new Video card is Huge and my new Intel chip ( i miss the good old AMD days ) is power pig . By the way my Power supply in my new puter is 600 watts .
Intel Core 2 Duo's have a lower TDP than any mainstream AMD chip other than the HE models.
 
Brett A

Brett A

Audioholic
Remember im using it for 5.1 , so the soundstage is not as critical as 2 channel system , like yours Brett , also your equipment is a little higher end than my Amp ( carver ) / Pre ( Marantz ) and i only use this system for movies only and never for music ( By the way very nice 2 channel setup ) .
Thanks for the compliment. I get a lot of rest and relaxation with my system.
And, I don't have experience in 5.1, so cannot offer anything specific to that. I simply wanted to chime in with my finding re:AC cords. I do believe some set-ups would reveal such subtle changes better than others. Perhaps it'd be lost in a 5.1 system.
You should try a blind test sometime.
I'd be happy to try blind testing. That'd be fun. I've made so many (inexpensive) tweaks such as vibration control and (affordable) cable upgrades over the past year, it'd be interesting to sonically revisit some of them.

I'm not aware of any science in support of AC cord upgrades making a sonic difference. It does seem absurd that three feet of "special" cable between an outlet and hifi unit would make a difference. Especially when the wiring on either end of it is made of much lesser material. In full respect of this knowledge, myself and many others (some of whom, by the way, are rational people of modest means) can attest to hearing a real difference. Enough to spend a few hours pay on at least.

I was just thinking that I haven't seen too many companies even try to offer science to support their AC cords. (except for the cryo sect maybe). I just read about good connections, good shielding, and maybe some oxygen free copper.
 
1

10010011

Senior Audioholic
I was just thinking that I haven't seen too many companies even try to offer science to support their AC cords. (except for the cryo sect maybe).
Certainly a sign of snake oil in my book.

I just read about good connections, good shielding, and maybe some oxygen free copper.
I am sure it all sounds like it makes sense, "garbage in garbage out" and all that...:rolleyes:

But then again when you look at the big picture... hundred of miles of unshielded cable hanging in mid air, hundred feet of cheap unshielded wire in the wall... But the last three feet are shielded oxygen free copper and make a huge difference.:confused:
 
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
Thanks for the compliment. I get a lot of rest and relaxation with my system.
And, I don't have experience in 5.1, so cannot offer anything specific to that. I simply wanted to chime in with my finding re:AC cords. I do believe some set-ups would reveal such subtle changes better than others. Perhaps it'd be lost in a 5.1 system.
Brett
What i mean the difference between the soundstage in 2 channel and 5.1 is vastly different to me . You said "depth" in your above statement , I find in 5.1 , very little depth in the soundstage . In 2 channel if setup properly , can have depth in the soundstage .
Your not missing to much for 5.1 . Its ok for movies ( but for music not so good ) , but my SDA's in 2 channel do just as fine .
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That's just it, an opinion. His opinion doesn't count more than anyone else and he stated that. Just as how you have your own opinions everyone is entitled to theirs. Do you honestly believe you are the first person to tell him what you wrote? Does he care? :rolleyes:. There is no need to start an argument which will lead to flaming just like every other post on this subject and many others.
We are now up against one of the fallacy's of the modern age. To state that someone is entitled to an opinion that can be proved wrong with 100% certainty is foolish. That is why there is so much nonsense abounding. The ancient Creeks would have had no trouble with a problem like this. A problem like this can be solved with didactic logic. The argument goes like this.

The power is generated by a turbine motor connected to an AC generator. The coils are copper and it spins at a rate to produce a 60 Hz wave form. The signal is connected in phase with other generator in the power station, and as the signal joins the grid, with lots of other turbine generators. There are numerous generators hundreds, and even thousands of miles from his home.

The AC signal is at many thousands of volts, and passes to sub stations, were transformers add some hysteresis distortion and thousands of customers add all sorts of hash to the line. The power company filters do their best to clean up the signal, but the cleansing is significantly imperfect.

From the sub station, the signal passes through many more miles of cable, shared with numerous other users, until it reaches his local street transformer. More hysteresis distortion is added plus hash from local neighbors discontinuous loads.

The AC signal now arrives at the posters house, passes though the copper wire of his meter and on to the panel and breaker, about which there is nothing special.

Now the signal passes though his standard copper house wire, and on to a standard electric receptacle.

Then the signal traverses a few feet of his "special wire" to his audio device.
This wire just passes electrons like any other conductor. Even if it had unusual conductive properties, it is less than a millionth part in the whole chain of transfer from multiple generators.

It does not end there. The signal goes though the power transformer of his device, with more hysteresis distortion. Now the signal passes through a rectifiers and is converted from AC to DC at various voltages. This pulsing DC
is smoothed by capacitors and regulated by solid state devices, and finally pronounced fit to send to power the circuit boards of his unit.

So the cable plays an infinitesimally small role in the whole process. AC cables are all of a size where even their resistance in the whole equation minute compared to house wiring etc.

So we can be 100% sure that anybody who makes a claim that the power cord is making ANY change to the sound of his device is mistaken.

Double blind testing is totally redundant and superfluous in a case like this.

No one can reasonably hold an opinion, that can be proved wrong with 100% certainty by a priori reasoning.

Posts like this show why we need to get back to teaching didactic logic in our schools and universities. The reason being, that if an individual can make a claim as absurd as the one, that states an AC power cord can improve the sound of an audio device connected to it, then their reasoning will be faulty in other areas of their lives.

Lets cut to the chase. Would you want a physician treating you for a critical illness able to make an argument like that? I hope not, but I have to tell you that unfortunately they are out there. That is why we need to formally teach logic.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Couldn't agree more Doc; very well said.
It wouldn't be the first time that lack of critical thinking skills were the root of bickering on these forums.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Well said, TLS. What you have said is that it is impossible for a power cord upgrade to affect the sound of an audio system. Common sense tells us that. For the record we went through the trouble of testing 5 such cords in bias controlled test to verify that several years ago. Consider logic and common sense verified. So it isn't just an opinion.

Folks, wire isn't an issue. Truthfully, electronics aren't much of an issue these days either. Worry about room acoustics and speaker systems. That's where you can improve your sonics meaningfully.
 
Brett A

Brett A

Audioholic
Well said, TLS. What you have said is that it is impossible for a power cord upgrade to affect the sound of an audio system. Common sense tells us that.

The scientific argument has been made well and repeatedly. I can understand the impulse to make it again. But in the larger picture, it doesn't move the conversation along. In fact, I think we may have reached the end of the conversation. Some believe that AC cords cannot make a difference in sound. And some would say that this belief even transcends the realm of belief because it is supported by science (what many of you call "proof"). I can say staight out that I do not have this kind of absolute regard for science. Science is limited and I respect that. Many thigs happen all the time that science either cannot explain or comes to realize it was wrong about. Why should this area be any different?

But let's get back to the point. The OP asked whether or not AC cords can make a difference: as can be expected, most people here on AH would say "no". I simply want to offer a "yes".

I don't care or need to get into a conversation about my relationship with objectivism, because it isn't going to go anywhere. It's just going to bring us back to this point: some people view the world through an objectivist's lens, some through a subjectivist one. I have no problem with that. As a subjectivist, I don't need the objectivists to see things my way and I hope I can be given the same respect.

Again, I say if you have the opportunity to try an after market AC cords, do it. What have you got to lose? You might just fond yourself among those who benefit. And if not, then you've gained some experiential knowledge.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The scientific argument has been made well and repeatedly. I can understand the impulse to make it again. But in the larger picture, it doesn't move the conversation along. In fact, I think we may have reached the end of the conversation. Some believe that AC cords cannot make a difference in sound. And some would say that this belief even transcends the realm of belief because it is supported by science (what many of you call "proof"). I can say staight out that I do not have this kind of absolute regard for science. Science is limited and I respect that. Many thigs happen all the time that science either cannot explain or comes to realize it was wrong about. Why should this area be any different?

But let's get back to the point. The OP asked whether or not AC cords can make a difference: as can be expected, most people here on AH would say "no". I simply want to offer a "yes".

I don't care or need to get into a conversation about my relationship with objectivism, because it isn't going to go anywhere. It's just going to bring us back to this point: some people view the world through an objectivist's lens, some through a subjectivist one. I have no problem with that. As a subjectivist, I don't need the objectivists to see things my way and I hope I can be given the same respect.

Again, I say if you have the opportunity to try an after market AC cords, do it. What have you got to lose? You might just fond yourself among those who benefit. And if not, then you've gained some experiential knowledge.
That's absolute drivel! I did not make a scientific argument. I made a reasoned argument based on proportionality.

The power card argument is equivalent to this.

I live on beautiful Benedict Lake Minnesota. The lake waters reach the Mississippi via the Leech lake and the Leech River.

Now if I thought that if I put a cup of "highly restorative" water in Lake Benedict, I could improve the drinking water and the health of the citizens in Des Moines Iowa, what would you think? You quite rightly would say "Your a nutty old Buzzard". The power cord argument is exactly on this level.
 
mr-ben

mr-ben

Audioholic
So we can be 100% sure that anybody who makes a claim that the power cord is making ANY change to the sound of his device is mistaken.
I don't believe your argument proves this. Although the power cord is a small portion of the power path, using a low-gauge cord can influence the voltage, as was pointed out by jcPanny with the power tool example.

There was an interesting article in a recent issue of Stereophile where they measured the performance of the PS2 as a CD player. It was much less accurate than most, colouring the sound. The reviewer listening to it liked the sound though - the colouring made some recordings sound different when compared to a more accurate player, and in some recordings, it was subjectively better.

I propose that some after-market power cords do alter the sound, by (intentionally?) restricting the flow of power. How this influences the sound probably varies widely depending on the device itself. Could it also be possible to wind the conductors in a way which causes magnetic interference within the cable - causing another form of colouration? Probably not, but I'm not an expert.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't believe your argument proves this. Although the power cord is a small portion of the power path, using a low-gauge cord can influence the voltage, as was pointed out by jcPanny with the power tool example.

There was an interesting article in a recent issue of Stereophile where they measured the performance of the PS2 as a CD player. It was much less accurate than most, colouring the sound. The reviewer listening to it liked the sound though - the colouring made some recordings sound different when compared to a more accurate player, and in some recordings, it was subjectively better.

I propose that some after-market power cords do alter the sound, by (intentionally?) restricting the flow of power. How this influences the sound probably varies widely depending on the device itself. Could it also be possible to wind the conductors in a way which causes magnetic interference within the cable - causing another form of colouration? Probably not, but I'm not an expert.
A piece of audio equipment is not a power tool. The audio device does not draw constant power, and has a reserve of power (reservoir) in the power supply caps. It would be quite impossible to color the sound with a power cord. All you could do would be make one small enough that it got hot and created a fire hazard. If the cord is not getting hot, then the resistance of the power cable is fine. You could never wind the cables in a way that was even a millionth of the inductance of the power transformer.

Yes, you can be 100% certain, that if the power cord is not heating to the touch, then it is totally irrelevant from an audio point of view.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
That's absolute drivel! I did not make a scientific argument. I made a reasoned argument based on proportionality.

The power card argument is equivalent to this.

I live on beautiful Benedict Lake Minnesota. The lake waters reach the Mississippi via the Leech lake and the Leech River.

Now if I thought that if I put a cup of "highly restorative" water in Lake Benedict, I could improve the drinking water and the health of the citizens in Des Moines Iowa, what would you think? You quite rightly would say "Your a nutty old Buzzard". The power cord argument is exactly on this level.

Your ok in my book for a "nutty old Buzzard".:D
 
1

10010011

Senior Audioholic
That's absolute drivel! I did not make a scientific argument. I made a reasoned argument based on proportionality.

The power card argument is equivalent to this.

I live on beautiful Benedict Lake Minnesota. The lake waters reach the Mississippi via the Leech lake and the Leech River.

Now if I thought that if I put a cup of "highly restorative" water in Lake Benedict, I could improve the drinking water and the health of the citizens in Des Moines Iowa, what would you think? You quite rightly would say "Your a nutty old Buzzard". The power cord argument is exactly on this level.
That and the fact that Des Moines Iowa is no where near the Mississippi river.:p
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
The scientific argument has been made well and repeatedly. I can understand the impulse to make it again. But in the larger picture, it doesn't move the conversation along. In fact, I think we may have reached the end of the conversation. Some believe that AC cords cannot make a difference in sound. And some would say that this belief even transcends the realm of belief because it is supported by science (what many of you call "proof"). I can say staight out that I do not have this kind of absolute regard for science. Science is limited and I respect that. Many thigs happen all the time that science either cannot explain or comes to realize it was wrong about. Why should this area be any different?

But let's get back to the point. The OP asked whether or not AC cords can make a difference: as can be expected, most people here on AH would say "no". I simply want to offer a "yes".

I don't care or need to get into a conversation about my relationship with objectivism, because it isn't going to go anywhere. It's just going to bring us back to this point: some people view the world through an objectivist's lens, some through a subjectivist one. I have no problem with that. As a subjectivist, I don't need the objectivists to see things my way and I hope I can be given the same respect.

Again, I say if you have the opportunity to try an after market AC cords, do it. What have you got to lose? You might just fond yourself among those who benefit. And if not, then you've gained some experiential knowledge.
But, Brett. Science explains to you why you hear what you hear. It is bias. If you remove the bias the audible difference will disappear. Every single time. Guaranteed. It will disappear for you and for anybody else. I can prove it to you. I'll even wager thousands of dollars that I can prove it to you.

Since we can prove our position and disprove yours to you or anyone else, it isn't likely that your position deserves or will receive any respect. Sorry. It isn't objectivism. It is plain old science. If you don't believe in science then you are in an incredibly small minority among civilized people.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top